The Official JK Aftermarket Lighting Thread (HID, HALO, Fog, Etc..) - Page 12 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:25 AM   #331
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Hilldweller did state they wer not street legal. We were discussing the possibility of what might make them illegal. I would definitely like to use a set as driving lights.
For the Duallys, maybe the term "driving lights" means offroad driving. Hopefully hilldweller will elaborate more.

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Old 08-29-2012, 12:32 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilldweller View Post

Rigid Dually is not a street legal product; great for offroad.
This is where I got it from. Maybe I misunderstood the context. I was close to ordering some of Amazon, so I am just trying to get my install planned out. I am also thinking of tying one in for a reverse light. Maybe one of the diffused? I am just starting to look into where and what exactly though.

Thanks for the help and discussion.

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Old 08-29-2012, 08:12 AM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSport View Post
Those are decent but I prefer their full-sized (8") drivers. More even spread of light.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SRPs 2012 View Post
Thanks. Driving is about 50% highway and 50% dark, very twisty roads. I ordered the brackets from Quadratec and plan on ordering the Warn wireless lights and have them hooked directly to the battery. It is my understanding (I could be wrong), that this way it would not negate any warranty issues and I would be able to turn these lights on by themselves, with High beams, or with low beams. Since in VA one cannot have 6 lights on I would have to keep the fog lights off if these are on.

I read in the forum that the Dan Stern bulbs burn out quickly. Since I am driving 95% at night I was hesitant to try these.
Set up the way you're describing, you'll be in violation of VA law running them on the street.
VA can be picky and you'll have to decide what you're more afraid of --- viloating their law or your warranty...
VA (and most states) want your driving lights to be limited by your highbeam circuit. That means using that circuit to trip your relay. Highbeams go off, driving lights go off automatically.
Warranty problems would be between you and your dealership; my dealer never said a word about my SMS harness; in fact, they made that a selling feature when I traded in my Jeep.
I had the JW Speaker headlights in there at the time still and they were wowwed by them.
I went through 2 sets of bulbs a year with my 2 H4 set-ups. A JK's big alternator is to blame there.


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Well for me personally, I only use the fogs as they were intended. Up close and directly on the road for foul weather. I never got caught up in driving all the time with fog lights on. Interferes with your long distance vision at night because the eyes try to focus on on the light up close.
Quoted for truth.
Thanks, SilverSport.


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Originally Posted by Lowerumble View Post
So what makes other driving lights legal or what makes the duallys illegal to use? So most of the time that see pics of these, the people are using them for high speed off road? Or just not using them? Or are they using them on road illegally?
It's all about where the light goes and if it will blind an on-coming driver. Since fogs can be used with lowbeams, they have to conform to a certain set of regs to be legal.
Rigid never intended their product to be used this way ---- I spoke to one of their reps earlier this month about that.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Dually product for what it is for our community. It just isn't a foglight or proper driving light....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowerumble View Post
Ok, besides chosen mounting location, the Rigid Duallys are actually street legal? I thought that Hilldweller had implied earlier that these lights in particular were not street legal for some reason. Are "driving lights" not usually intended for actual driving? My intention is to hopefully have these wired so that I could either flip them on or off and while in the "on" position they would further be controlled by the factory dimmer. So, switch on... brights on with driving lights on, low beams on with driving lights off. Switch off, driving lights off regardless of headlights.

I will research my state laws regarding mounting location. Thanks for the heads up.
In a nutshell, here's how it is.

A headlight system consists of either 2 or 4 lights but is considered the same sort of "system" either way.
You can run fogs that comply with DOT regs along with your lowbeams.
You can run driving lights that comply with DOT regs along with your highbeams --- on a 4-light highbeam system (like my Power Wagon), this will result in 6 lights on at once since my lowbeams stay on with my highbeams.
Your foglights must be wired in a way that they'll turn off when you switch to highbeams.
Your driving lights (auxiliary highbeams) must be wired in a way that they turn off with lowbeams.

States like to think that their laws supercede federal law; they don't. But in some states it doesn't really matter ---- like Georgia...
In some states it matters ALOT.
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:23 AM   #334
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How do you have yours wired?
Wired directly to my sPod
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:19 AM   #335
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What are the opinions of Vision X fog lights clear or amber? I'm concerned about running them directly through the oem fog wiring.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:56 PM   #336
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Here is an interesting link:
Number of allowable headlights, fog lights, driving lights...?
And you thought we have questions about this!
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:15 PM   #337
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Even law enforcement officers can't agree. LOL
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:22 PM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilldweller View Post

It's all about where the light goes and if it will blind an on-coming driver. Since fogs can be used with lowbeams, they have to conform to a certain set of regs to be legal.
Rigid never intended their product to be used this way ---- I spoke to one of their reps earlier this month about that.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Dually product for what it is for our community. It just isn't a foglight or proper driving light....
Ok, so I guess I am beating this to death, but I still feel like I don't understand. I understand the fog lights and lowbeams, the driving lights and highbeams. My state laws are that I can have 2 "driving" lights located between 16" and 42". So as long as they shut off when the high beams shut off and are located within this range, the Duallys would be a legal and good choice? Or are these for off-road ONLY?

Also, since I don't have my jeep yet, how high do the windshield mounts sit to any of you with a Jeep handy?
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Old 08-29-2012, 07:28 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowerumble View Post
Ok, so I guess I am beating this to death, but I still feel like I don't understand. I understand the fog lights and lowbeams, the driving lights and highbeams. My state laws are that I can have 2 "driving" lights located between 16" and 42". So as long as they shut off when the high beams shut off and are located within this range, the Duallys would be a legal and good choice? Or are these for off-road ONLY?

Also, since I don't have my jeep yet, how high do the windshield mounts sit to any of you with a Jeep handy?
52" on my Unlimited Sport with a 2" spacer lift. So about 50".
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:00 PM   #340
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My first set of Cibies!

I remember when dad installed the first set of Cibie fog lamps on a 1973 front wheel drive Saab 99e. We lived in the UP in 1975 and we immediately took a 4 hour road trip to Mackinaw via M28 and US2 in a blizzard, stopping every so often to check the light alignment. It was a Friday night and I remember the excitement well - men and lights in the darkness. The Saab cut through the snow drifts like butter! In 1983 I inherited the Saab and it became an off-road marvel in the Alabama wilderness outisde of Auburn. The lights still bright although eventually broke them both as well as mutilated the transmission pan. Second gear went out sometime later but that sled, with an AM radio FM converter, really comfy 8-point seats and a 6 pack of beer at age 16 made for great adventures. The motor made that little tick-tick sound and the interior smelled, well like an old Saab, Stroh's and Marlboros. Ahhh the good ole days . . .
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:01 PM   #341
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52" on my Unlimited Sport with a 2" spacer lift. So about 50".
Thanks for that. So basically, my driving lights would never be legal near the windshield. Ok, back to the drawing board. I am still wondering about he legality of the D2s in general as an on-road supplemental driving light.
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:15 PM   #342
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dually's and d2's are not DOT approved and are therfore illegal for on-road use. these are offroad lights...they will blind oncoming drivers as well. if u don't need to pass inspection and can turn them off easily when on coming traffic approaches then just do it.
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:19 PM   #343
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So, do we have a definite answer on whether or not Rigid Dually/D2's are street legal if they are placed in the OEM fog location?

As bad as the stock lights are, I love running my fogs with my low beams. I run them most of the time. Would love to run Rigids for my fogs if possible (on-road).
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:48 PM   #344
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Quote:
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dually's and d2's are not DOT approved and are therfore illegal for on-road use. these are offroad lights...they will blind oncoming drivers as well. if u don't need to pass inspection and can turn them off easily when on coming traffic approaches then just do it.
Well my research is finding that many popular lights are not street legal.
I called KC Hilites today: "Sir, none of our lights are DOT approved for street use. However, we have 8" buggy lights that we consider as street legal". LOL

I went to the thread that stans1stjeep linked to. Even law enforcement officers seem to have differing views on what is legal or not. One officer stated he didn't care how many lights were on a vehicle as long as they didn't blind him. The general consensus was they weren't going out of their way to check lights to see if they were legal as far as their location on the vehicle let alone FMVSS approved.

I have no proof of this next thought, just a gut feeling. To avoid spending time and money ensuring their products meet FMVSS standards, most manufacturers strictly advertise their lights as "offroad" even though they know customers will use them on the street. They also make no mention on their website about the lights being street legal. This helps protect them from lawsuits because they can always claim they are advertised as offroad only.
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:38 PM   #345
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From the Hella website:
All of the Hella products listed on this website and in our catalogs have SAE/DOT approval for highway use unless otherwise specified.
This means that they are ready to install and use without any further approval or inspections needed.

Drivers | Hella USA and Canada
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:28 PM   #346
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quick question, when I install the Harness for my TruckLites, do I need to disconnect my battery Negative and then positive (attach the harness plugs) then reattach positive and then negative? Messing with batteries always tweaks me out

Thanks
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:30 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XpressoBeans
quick question, when I install the Harness for my TruckLites, do I need to disconnect my battery Negative and then positive (attach the harness plugs) then reattach positive and then negative? Messing with batteries always tweaks me out

Thanks
Always a good idea.
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Old 08-29-2012, 10:58 PM   #348
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Here is a link to a SEMA site advising members to be in compliance with FMVSS 108, read the article link within the lighting section:
Federal Regulation of Aftermarket Parts: A Guide to Compliance | Specialty Equipment Market Association
In the article it references a DOT marking MFG are supposed to put on their lights, Looked for this on both my PIAA's and my factory head lights, didn't find it on either.

Also PIAA says their 520 series lights are SAE compliant and they do have a defined upper and outer cutoff as well as a white light beam.

I'll copy and post the headlight section of FMVSS 108, but I warn you in advance, it's boring reading. I skimmed the whole thing this afternoon.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:12 PM   #349
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attached is a small section of FMVSS 108 regarding 4 headlamp systems. The Full FMVSS 108 is linked on the SEMA link in my post above.
headlamp system consisting of two
lamps, each containing either one or
two replaceable light sources, shall be
provided as follows:

(i) The lower beam shall be provided
in one of the following ways:
(A) By the outboard light source (or
upper one if arranged vertically) designed to conform to:
(1) The lower beam requirements of
Figure 27–1 or Figure 27–2, or Figure 17–
1 or Figure 17–2, if the light sources in
the headlamp system are any combination of dual filament replaceable light
sources other than Type HB2; or
(2) The lower beam requirements of
Figure 17–1 or Figure17–2 if the light
sources are Type HB2, or any dual filament replaceable light sources that include Type HB2; or
(B) By both light sources in the
headlamp, designed to conform to the
lower beam requirements specified
above.
(ii) The upper beam shall be provided
in one of the following ways:
(A) By the inboard light source (or
the lower one if arranged vertically)
designed to conform to:
(1) The upper beam requirements of
Figure 27–1 or Figure 27–2, or Figure 17–
1 or Figure 17–2 if the light sources in
the headlamp system are any combination of dual filament replaceable light
sources that include Type HB2, or
(2) The upper beam requirements of
figure 17–1 or Figure 17–2 if the light
sources are type HB2, or any combination of replaceable light sources that
include Type HB2; or
(B) By both light sources in the
headlamp, designed to conform to the
upper beam requirements specified
above.
(3) The lower and upper beams of a
headlamp system consisting of four
lamps, each containing a single replaceable light source, shall be provided as follows:
(i) The lower beam shall be provided
by the outboard lamp (or the upper one
if arranged vertically), designed to conform to:
(A) The lower beam requirements of
Figure 27–1 or Figure 27–2, or Figure 15–
1 or Figure 15–2 if the light sources in
the headlamp system are any combination of dual filament light sources
other than Type HB2; or
(B) The lower beam requirements of
Figure 15–1 or Figure 15–2 if the light
sources are Type HB2, or dual filament
light sources other than Type HB1 and
HB5. The lens of each such headlamp
shall be marked with the letter ‘‘L’’.
(ii) The upper beam shall be provided
by the inboard lamp (or the lower one
if arranged vertically), designed to conform to:
(A) The upper beam requirements of
Figure 27–1 or Figure 27–2, of Figure 15–
1 or Figure 15–2 if the light sources in
the headlamp system are any combination of dual filament light sources
other than Type HB2; or
(B) The upper beam requirements of
Figure 15–1 or Figure 15–2 if the light
sources are Type HB2, or dual filament
light sources other tha Type HB1 and
Type HB5. The lens of each such
headlamp shall be marked with the letter ‘‘u’’.
(e) The following requirements apply
to a headlamp system equipped with
any combination of replaceable light
sources except those specified in paragraph (d) of this section:
(1) Headlamps designed to conform to
the external aim requirements of
S7.8.5.1 shall have no mechanism that
allows adjustment of an individual
light source, or, if there are two replaceable light sources, independent
adjustment of each reflector.
(2) The lower and upper beams of a
headlamp system consisting of two
lamps, each containing a combination
of two replaceable light sources (other
than those combinations specified in
subparagraph (d) of this paragraph)
shall be provided only as follows:
(i) The lower beam shall be provided
in one of the following ways:
(A) By the outboard light source (or
the uppermost if arranged vertically)
designed to conform to the lower beam
requirements of Figure 17–1 or Figure
17–2; or
(B) By both light sources, designed to
conform to the lower beam requirements of Figure 17–1 or Figure 17–2.
(ii) The upper beam shall be provided
in one of the following ways:
(A) By the inboard light source (or
the lower one if arranged vertically)
designed to conform to the upper beam
requirements of Figure 17–1 or Figure
17–2; or
(B) By both light sources, designed to
conform to the upper beam requirements of Figure 17–1 or Figure 17–2.
VerDate Aug<31>2005 14:58 Dec 10, 2008 Jkt 214214 PO 00000 Frm 00330 Fmt 8010 Sfmt 8010 Y:\SGML\214214.XXX 214214
yshivers on PROD1PC62 with CFR321
Nat’l Highway Traffic Safety Admin., DOT § 571.108
(3) The lower and upper beams of a
headlamp system consisting of four
lamps, using any combination of replaceable light sources except those
specified in subparagraph (d) of this
paragraph, each lamp containing only
a single replaceable light source, shall
be provided only as follows:
(i) The lower beam shall be produced
by the outboard lamp (or upper one if
arranged vertically), designed to conform to the lower beam requirements
of Figure 15–1 or Figure 15–2. The lens
of each headlamp shall be permanently
marked with the letter ‘‘L’’.
(ii) The upper beam shall be produced
by the inboard lamp (or lower one of
arranged vertically), designed to conform to the upper beam requirements
of Figure 15–1 or Figure 15–2. The lens
of each headlamp shall be permanently
marked with the letter ‘‘U’’.
(f) Each lens reflector unit manufactured as replacement equipment shall
be designed to conform to the requirements of subparagraphs (d) and (e) of
this paragraph when any replaceable
light source appropriate for such unit
is inserted in it.
(g) The lens of each replaceable bulb
headlamp shall bear permanent marking in front of each replaceable light
source with which it is equipped that
states the HB Type, if the light source
is designed to conform to subparagraphs (a) through (e) of paragraph
S7.7, or the bulb marking/ designation
provided in compliance with Section
VIII of appendix A of part 564, if the
light source is designed to conform to
subparagraph (g) of paragraph S.7.7 No
marking need be provided if the only
replaceable light source in the
headlamp is Type HB1.
(h) The system shall be aimable in
accordance with paragraph S7.8.
(i) Each headlamp shall meet the requirements of paragraphs S7.4(g) and
(h), except that the sentence in paragraph (g) to verify sealing according to
section S8.9 Sealing does not apply.
(j) A replaceable bulb headlighting
system may incorporate replaceable
light sources that are used for purposes
other than headlighting.
S7.6 Combination Headlighting System. A combination headlighting system shall be comprised of either two
headlamps designed to conform to the
requirements of S7.6.2, or any combination of four headlamps designed to conform to the requirements of S7.3.7,
S7.4, or S7.5 of this standard.
S7.6.1 A combination headlighting
system shall provide in total not more
than two upper beams and two lower
beams. When installed on a motor vehicle, the headlamps (or parts thereof)
that provide the lower beam shall be of
the same type, and provide a symmetrical effective projected luminous lens
area when illuminated.
S7.6.2 In a combination headlighting
system consisting of two headlamps,
each headlamp shall be designed to
conform to Figure 17–1 or Figure 17–2
and shall be a combination of two different headlamps chosen from the following types: a Type F headlamp, an
integral beam headlamp, and a replaceable bulb headlamp.
S7.6.2.1 That part of the headlamp
which contains an integral beam
headlamp, or beam contributors used
in place of a single headlamp, shall be
designed to conform to the requirements of S7.4 (c) through (h) of this
standard.
S7.6.2.2 That part of the headlamp
which contains a replaceable bulb
headlamp shall be designed to conform
to the requirements of S7.5 of this
standard.
S7.6.3 In a combination headlighting
system consisting of four headlamps,
each headlamp shall be designed to
conform to Figure 15–1 or Figure 15–2,
or if an integral beam headlamp in
which there is more than one beam
contributor, designed to conform to
Figure 15–1 or Figure 15–2 in the manner required by S7.4(a)(3) of this stand
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:26 PM   #350
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Good Lord the laws are stupidly written. Plain English would work so much better.
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:25 AM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowerumble View Post
Ok, so I guess I am beating this to death, but I still feel like I don't understand. I understand the fog lights and lowbeams, the driving lights and highbeams. My state laws are that I can have 2 "driving" lights located between 16" and 42". So as long as they shut off when the high beams shut off and are located within this range, the Duallys would be a legal and good choice? Or are these for off-road ONLY?
Offroad only.
It's their beam that's bad; it will blind on-coming drivers.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:03 AM   #352
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so here's the deal with rigid dually and d2. they are NOT street legal. if you are worried about inspection and legality this setup is OFFROAD ONLY. if you are not worried about that then choose the appropriate beam pattern to use on road. plenty of us run them in the fog light location, windshield, and numerous other places. these things are super bright and throw light all over depending on the beam choice and positioning. when installing these in fog light location for both street and offroad use, most are going with regular dually in the spot/driving beam which is considered acceptable on road(by jeepers..not the law). the flood and diffused throw too much light for street use and WILL blind on coming drivers, but work well offroad. when mounted higher such as windhield or roof most also use the spot/driving beam to avoid glare from the hood, but go with the d2 for extra output since these are typically only run offroad or quickly shut off when on coming vehicles are seen. if you are worried about inspection wire them completely seperate of your factory lighting on their own switches. then all oem lights work like normal(ie. turn on/off with high beams etc.) and you will pass inspection on the basis that any additional lighting is for offroad use. hope this helps.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:37 AM   #353
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Put in the HL28130J Transition Upgrade Headlamp Harness to bypass the Jeeps CanBus System that was causing my Truck-Lite LED Headlamp Kit to Flicker. All gone Thanks Wrangler Forum for your input and thanks Susquehanna Motorsports for your Product!
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:42 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XpressoBeans

Put in the HL28130J Transition Upgrade Headlamp Harness to bypass the Jeeps CanBus System that was causing my Truck-Lite LED Headlamp Kit to Flicker. All gone Thanks Wrangler Forum for your input and thanks Susquehanna Motorsports for your Product!
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:50 PM   #355
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Michigan vehicle code: MCL 257.685 re: auxiliary lamps

The attached link shows the Michigan law on head lamps, number,height:auxiliary,spot,or other lamp: exemption:

The summary is that in Michigan, the lamps must be mounted such that the center of the lamp is between 24" - 54" above the ground. When equipped with auxiliary lamps, not more than four lamps, including the vehicle head lamps can be illuminated at the same time while on the highway.

Michigan Legislature - Section 257.695

I suggest that we all research our own state laws and link them here. If we can get enough state details we can then compile a summary of the state laws. Federal law, FMVSS 108 does not regulate auxiliary (driving) lights, this is left to the states. In talking with PIAA they comply with the SAE standard for headlights, but the person with the details was out of the office today, more later.
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:52 PM   #356
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Sorry, wrong link, here is the correct one:

Michigan Legislature - Section 257.685

PS: I found this link by asking my local police for the link, after I had tried to find it w/o success for 2 days. Lt. Wenzel of the Rochester Police Dept, was very helpful in sending me the link to the state codes. I plan to put a copy of the MI code in my Jeep, just incase.
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Old 08-30-2012, 08:54 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by XpressoBeans View Post
Put in the HL28130J Transition Upgrade Headlamp Harness to bypass the Jeeps CanBus System that was causing my Truck-Lite LED Headlamp Kit to Flicker. All gone Thanks Wrangler Forum for your input and thanks Susquehanna Motorsports for your Product!
Woop Woop! I knew you could do it!
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:26 PM   #358
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Woop Woop! I knew you could do it!
Thanks
The only issue I ran into was that the new plug that went into the OLD plug didnt snap shut. it was cut different apparently. I tried to shave off a bit and couldnt get it to snap in, so its electrical taped and zip tied shut, it will NOT be coming out

Otherwise, it was nice to have no flicker tonight at all . But now it appears I need to re-aim my headlights. The stealership does it for 25$ I may just take em up on it hahah
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:29 AM   #359
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I suggest that we all research our own state laws and link them here...... Federal law, FMVSS 108 does not regulate auxiliary (driving) lights, this is left to the states.
Truth.

The outlines that I gave earlier will more or less take care of you in all the states.
VA and CA can be tough. NY, NJ, LA, parts of MD too.
And even parts of FL. Any AHJ that gets on a mission might hassle you if you're not in compliance or just look a little too flashy...
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:57 AM   #360
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Thanks
The only issue I ran into was that the new plug that went into the OLD plug didnt snap shut. it was cut different apparently. I tried to shave off a bit and couldnt get it to snap in, so its electrical taped and zip tied shut, it will NOT be coming out

Otherwise, it was nice to have no flicker tonight at all . But now it appears I need to re-aim my headlights. The stealership does it for 25$ I may just take em up on it hahah
It sounds like the same problem I had w/the SMS headlight plug, I shaved a bit off the flat side until it snapped in place.

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