The Official JK Aftermarket Lighting Thread (HID, HALO, Fog, Etc..) - Page 45 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:44 PM   #1321
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Originally Posted by schiesz View Post
Back on the lighting track...

I got the Truck-lites and like them a lot. They have a lot more artifacts than I would have preferred, but until I feel like I can afford the real projectors they will do just fine for me. I'm happy with the output.

They have, however, made my stock fogs in the JK useless. I don't need them really, but i'm thinking that some Rigids with the flat mounting bracket might be very nice down there for offroad use. My main question is: Do people prefer the flood or spot in the stock fog light location on JK's?
Floods for sure. Spots are pretty useless down there in my opinion. I had the dually spots down there for awhile and sold them and got floods. Much better! D2 driving pattern is best, but you'll need some amber covers for them because they are too bright for oncoming traffic if you leave them white.

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Old 07-11-2013, 04:29 PM   #1322
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Recommendations please

HI All, new to the forum and hoping you can help. Have a 2012 Wrangler unlimited that I truly love, but hate, hate, hate the stock headlights, dim is an understatement! I have done a little reading up on replacement headlights, and I know that there are a variety of replacement options, but the reviews seem to be all over the place. The Tucklite's sound awesome, but I'm not in a position right now to shell out $500. What other options would you recommend that you have used that would light up a wider, brighter, swath?

Thanks!

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Old 07-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #1323
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HI All, new to the forum and hoping you can help. Have a 2012 Wrangler unlimited that I truly love, but hate, hate, hate the stock headlights, dim is an understatement! I have done a little reading up on replacement headlights, and I know that there are a variety of replacement options, but the reviews seem to be all over the place. The Tucklite's sound awesome, but I'm not in a position right now to shell out $500. What other options would you recommend that you have used that would light up a wider, brighter, swath?

Thanks!
Can you shell out $380? Someone on this forum mentioned a few days ago that a reputable seller had a bunch listed on eBay for $190 each. I'm only repeating what I read so I can't vouch for anything but it's worth looking into.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:44 AM   #1324
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This may be a dumb question but has anyone just used a xenon bulbs from ebay? Like a 5900k+ HID look-a-like? Does that put better output than the regular stock bulbs or Sylvania bulbs you can buy?

The reason I ask is because I had an Eclipse back in the day and just used those and it put out twice the output and was dirt cheap.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:33 AM   #1325
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I installed Sylvania SilverStars (whatever their latest and greatest version is) and the light output is marginally better...but still sucks IMO.

I'm thinking of going either HID or one of the various LED products on the market.

The roads in east TN are extremely dark at night...and rather twisty. I've almost hit two deer and one bear...time for an upgrade of some sort.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:56 AM   #1326
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This may be a dumb question but has anyone just used a xenon bulbs from ebay? Like a 5900k+ HID look-a-like? Does that put better output than the regular stock bulbs or Sylvania bulbs you can buy?

The reason I ask is because I had an Eclipse back in the day and just used those and it put out twice the output and was dirt cheap.
And illegal?
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:30 PM   #1327
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And illegal?
We are not suppose to talk about legal vs. illegal here so I will put it in other terms.

Silverstar bulbs use a filament just like your OEM bulbs. So, the reflector surface inside your headlamp assembly is designed to take lite from a point light source and distribute the light into appropriate areas. That is, the light is in the road where the customer wants it (and the law states it needs to be) and makes sure light isn't too high so that it will glare people. The Silverstars bulbs burn brighter (more lumens and shorter life) and have a higher color temp (like 2500k) <- guessing about the value.

A xenon or HID Light source is not the same as a filament light source.. It is much larger an brighter (more lumens produced). The problem comes from the design of the reflector relative to the light produced from the xennon light source shape; its barrel shaped - much larger then the filament light source. So, there is light shining into the reflector at angles that were not considered in the design. So it is likely that light (lumen value) is too high and glaring oncoming drivers. This is why all OEM HID systems use projector beams. They have an internal shield that prevents light, even with a barrel shaped light source, from entering the glare region.

That being said, I have converted my headlamps and fog lamps to HID light sources. I just aimed my headlamps down so I can minimize the glare for oncoming drivers.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:43 PM   #1328
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This may be a dumb question but has anyone just used a xenon bulbs from ebay? Like a 5900k+ HID look-a-like? Does that put better output than the regular stock bulbs or Sylvania bulbs you can buy?

The reason I ask is because I had an Eclipse back in the day and just used those and it put out twice the output and was dirt cheap.
I have done it and its much better then stock. There's a lot more light but the pattern on the road has dark an bright spots (streaky). The fogs help to fill in the dark spots very well. See my post above for some issues with the system. If you bought the HID headlamps where someone has retrofit a projector inside the headlamp, that would be a way better option because it puts light in the right spots. It's more expensive then the HID retrofit but better results. It's also way cheaper then the LED options.

One word of warning. The jeep uses a PWM power lead for the headlamp low and high beam. It emits a square wave that causes the HID retrofit kit to flicker like a strobe light. You will need a capacitor kit (error canceler) to have them operate without flicker. They are available at amazon for about 8$ a pair.
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Old 07-22-2013, 08:14 PM   #1329
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Question about the JW Speaker Headlights .... I have an 06, will I need to buy the harness or is this a complete plug and play? Thanks guys!
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:03 PM   #1330
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I dropped $700 shipped including harness...got the from discountfleetsuply.com with the WF 5% discount. Either JW's or Trucklites are a great improvement over stock headlights, night and day...you will not regret it
Where do I get the code for the 5% discount? Do I need to call them? Thanks
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:14 PM   #1331
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Originally Posted by J33P4X4 View Post

We are not suppose to talk about legal vs. illegal here so I will put it in other terms.

Silverstar bulbs use a filament just like your OEM bulbs. So, the reflector surface inside your headlamp assembly is designed to take lite from a point light source and distribute the light into appropriate areas. That is, the light is in the road where the customer wants it (and the law states it needs to be) and makes sure light isn't too high so that it will glare people. The Silverstars bulbs burn brighter (more lumens and shorter life) and have a higher color temp (like 2500k) <- guessing about the value.

A xenon or HID Light source is not the same as a filament light source.. It is much larger an brighter (more lumens produced). The problem comes from the design of the reflector relative to the light produced from the xennon light source shape; its barrel shaped - much larger then the filament light source. So, there is light shining into the reflector at angles that were not considered in the design. So it is likely that light (lumen value) is too high and glaring oncoming drivers. This is why all OEM HID systems use projector beams. They have an internal shield that prevents light, even with a barrel shaped light source, from entering the glare region.

That being said, I have converted my headlamps and fog lamps to HID light sources. I just aimed my headlamps down so I can minimize the glare for oncoming drivers.
Who said anything about not discussing legality?

It is nice you aim yours down, but maybe others would like to be aware and make an informed choice.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:45 PM   #1332
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Who said anything about not discussing legality?

It is nice you aim yours down, but maybe others would like to be aware and make an informed choice.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html
It says on the very first post of this thread not to give opinions about legality. If you read my posts, I gave a cliff notes version of why they provide more light but yield a worse light pattern. My goal was to help him make an informed decision. Show me where I said something that was misleading...
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:52 PM   #1333
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IMy goal was to help him make an informed decision. Show me where I said something that was misleading...
And you don't think part of the informed decision should include legality?

And really is the legality of something an opinion? It is against the law or it is not.

People can do whatever they want, but I cannot count the number of people in my area who have installed hids in housings not made for them. The light coming out of them is annoying to other drivers and in some cases dangerous.

It is threads like this that perpetuate the thinking it is acceptable to do stuff like this.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:49 PM   #1334
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And you don't think part of the informed decision should include legality?

And really is the legality of something an opinion? It is against the law or it is not.

People can do whatever they want, but I cannot count the number of people in my area who have installed hids in housings not made for them. The light coming out of them is annoying to other drivers and in some cases dangerous.

It is threads like this that perpetuate the thinking it is acceptable to do stuff like this.
I'm just following the rules of the forum. If you took the time to read what I wrote, you would see that I informed him that he would be putting light in the glare regions of the pattern. Did you read the whole post or just the last line? You can give people the information to determine if its legal or not without giving my opinion. It should be obvious to anyone who read the post.

By the way, even Silverstars put out more light then the OEM bulbs. Not only a higher color temp (which is ok) but they are higher wattage and they produce more lumens. So, a borderline lumen value in the glare region of the beam pattern could now be over the limit allowed. OEM lamp manufactured meet legal requirements using what is called a "rated bulb". This means that the filament location of the bulb is precisely located; a perfect bulb if you will. So, when they build your headlamp assembly, there is a chance that the bulbs you got are already putting light into the glare region.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:42 PM   #1335
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I am not a light expert and was using the articles and correspondence I have had with Daniel Stern. He has cautioned against it and I figured he is pretty versed in the law.
That's fine. Your link to Daniels information was good. He obviously knows his stuff and spent a lot if time putting the material together. However, your comment in that first post in response to my information was insulting and insinuated that I was uninformed. I am also a lighting expert. The information was valid and on-topic. So, if it looks I had a chip on my shoulder, that's why.
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Old 07-24-2013, 09:08 AM   #1336
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Where do I get the code for the 5% discount? Do I need to call them? Thanks
Not sure on adapter for an '06, but the discount code is "lifeisgood5"
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:31 PM   #1337
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That's fine. Your link to Daniels information was good. He obviously knows his stuff and spent a lot if time putting the material together. However, your comment in that first post in response to my information was insulting and insinuated that I was uninformed. I am also a lighting expert. The information was valid and on-topic. So, if it looks I had a chip on my shoulder, that's why.
Sorry. Too many forums of import tuner wannabees not giving a rat's ass about other people or their own ability to see.

You are one of the few that knows his stuff, my apologies.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:15 PM   #1338
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Sorry. Too many forums of import tuner wannabees not giving a rat's ass about other people or their own ability to see.

You are one of the few that knows his stuff, my apologies.
It's cool. Thanks for that.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:01 PM   #1339
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I can't wait to get started on my retrofit in my soon to be mine JK. I had someone do a professional HID retrofit in my motorcycle and I was blown away at the light output those little lights give me.
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Old 08-10-2013, 03:10 PM   #1340
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Show me where I said something that was misleading...
Ok, I'll do that.

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The fogs help to fill in the dark spots very well
No, they don't, at least not at highway speeds. Anything fog lamps light up for you at 60mph are essentially things you will hit. You might get a chance to start swerving and braking, but not much of one.


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I guess the is the reason for the debate. You don't know the law but you say it is illegal. Do you know the allowed light/lumen value allowed in the glare religion? Do you know where the glare region even is? How about how the light is measured? What instrument is used to measure it? What is the test procedure to measure it? What law governs the low beam on vehicles? Is it FMVSS 108 or is it a SAE Specification? What year of SAE spec is recognized? Even after you can answer all of those questions, you have to be able to apply all of those to a specific lamp set-up and test it to the proper specification to know if its legal. Oh, and by the way, you'll need a larger sample size the one set of lamps to test.
So it's down to trivia questions?

"Glare region" generally refers to those areas above horizontal where other drivers' eyes tend to be in relation to one's own headlamps. This includes the region above Horizontal and 0.5 to 4 degrees Left (oncoming vehicles), the straight ahead H-V axis (leading vehicles/rearview mirror) and 0.5° to 5° above Horizontal, 0.5° to 5° Right of vertical (sideview mirror glare in vehicles being overtaken).
Then there's the region 10° to 90° above horizontal (glare given to one's self in bad weather.)

And what's to apply to a "specific lamp setup"? Compliance is compliance is compliance. While the beam isoplot (taken with a photogoniometer) of a '72 Valiant and a '91 Corolla will look quite different in many places, both lamps must meet the same standards of performance and the isoplots should bear out that they do. They may have different aiming methods, but they must still comply to certain standards. These standards can be found in SAE documents, but it is FMVSS 108 that has the actual force of law, the SAE documents obviously do not.

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After you do all that, then you can determine if its against the law or not. Until you do, your just stating your opinion.
Wrong. Using an arc-discharge light source in a lamp designed for a filament light source (whether a reflector or projector) is illegal (the HID kits are illegal per se, a term that means "in itself". It's not open to interpretation or opinion. It is a legal fact. As corollary, putting a filament light source in a lamp designed for an arc-discharge light source (whether reflector or projector) is also illegal. This is an absolute fact. I'm not here, however, to discuss the law, I'm here to point out misinformation that is being given. Some of it refers to the law, yes, but these are given as direct factual rebuttals to things said here.

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Your link to Daniels information was good. He obviously knows his stuff and spent a lot if time putting the material together.
Daniel J. Stern is a recognized industry expert.
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However, your comment in that first post in response to my information was insulting and insinuated that I was uninformed. I am also a lighting expert. The information was valid and on-topic. So, if it looks I had a chip on my shoulder, that's why.
And you have the credentials to prove that? You say you are an expert but you give out bad advice and untruths and are doing things to your own car that a real expert would not do.

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Silverstar bulbs use a filament just like your OEM bulbs. So, the reflector surface inside your headlamp assembly is designed to take lite from a point light source and distribute the light into appropriate areas. That is, the light is in the road where the customer wants it (and the law states it needs to be) and makes sure light isn't too high so that it will glare people. The Silverstars bulbs burn brighter (more lumens and shorter life) and have a higher color temp (like 2500k) <- guessing about the value.
The filaments may burn slightly brighter, but with the same or possibly slightly higher color temperature, but in the range of 3200-3400K. (The 3rd-gen HIR2 from Philips burns particularly hot, and so has a color temp of 3450K.)
They have to burn brighter to try to overcome the tinting of the bulb envelope. Once the light passes through the tinted envelope, terms like color temp are meaningless, because color temp refers to white light; when enough of the red/orange/yellow is stripped out by the tint, the light is no longer white. If you look at the spectral power distribution of a halogen bulb, you'll see it takes quite a bit of filtering to reduce the ROY component.

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A xenon or HID Light source is not the same as a filament light source.. It is much larger an brighter (more lumens produced). The problem comes from the design of the reflector relative to the light produced from the xennon light source shape; its barrel shaped - much larger then the filament light source.
No, it's arc-shaped, and with two distinct hotspots (at the electrodes), not with a single hotspot as with a filament.

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So, there is light shining into the reflector at angles that were not considered in the design.
This is true, but not for the reasons you used which I've corrected above.

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This is why all OEM HID systems use projector beams.
Then explain the D1R, D2R, D3R, and D4R bulbs. (HINT: The "R" refers to the bulb being used in a reflector assembly that is designed to use the bulb.)
Mercedes W140, W201, W210. Subaru Forester, the Lexus GS and IS, Lincoln Mark VII and Navigator, the Infiniti GX4, are among the cars that were factory-equipped with reflector-type HID headlamps as standard or optional through some or all of their production lifespan.

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They have an internal shield that prevents light, even with a barrel shaped light source, from entering the glare region.
Actually, it's the shape of the reflector bowl that takes care of most of that.

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That being said, I have converted my headlamps and fog lamps to HID light sources. I just aimed my headlamps down so I can minimize the glare for oncoming drivers.
You're clearly NOT a lighting expert if you have done that. Reaiming the lamps does not fix the inherent problem of the light source shape. HID foglamps would also be pretty useless, giving you excessive foreground light.

It's not an informed decision when it's based on incorrect information. To help make an informed decision you could have left it at "it gives a noncompliant beam with excessive glare for other drivers and potential gaps in your own visual field."
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:02 PM   #1341
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Daniel J. Stern is a recognized industry expert.
Now I know Stern is highly respected in the lighting community, but at first glance his info seems horribly outdated. In his FAQ he essentially says that his FAQ will never go out of date, and HIDs are horrible in every application, and always will be, regardless of projector advancement. Even though you will not find a high end car without them. Also, apparently the halogen lights he sells haven't been made since the late 90s (according to a friend) and that he rebuys and rebuilds them to sell them. How is he an authority still? Not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious.
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Old 08-10-2013, 09:59 PM   #1342
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Now I know Stern is highly respected in the lighting community, but at first glance his info seems horribly outdated. How is he still an expert?
Howdy, InvertChaos, and welcome to my one and only post on here.

Now let's see here:

• General Editor of Driving Vision News, the global automotive lighting and driver assistance industry journal headquartered in France (i.e., not headquartered on Dan Stern's desk in Canada). Membership (€4900/year and up) consists of most of the world's automakers and Tier-1 and -2 lighting manufacturers, most of the world's vehicle and traffic regulatory agencies and working groups, most of the world's traffic and vehicle research institutes and apposite university departments.

• 12-year appointed member of the National Academy of Sciences Transportation Research Board's Visibility Committee, which steers the bulk of driver vision and conspicuity research in North America.

• 12-year attendee and participant in the world's biennial vehicular lighting seminars, symposia, and technical congresses including the International Symposium on Automotive Lighting in Germany in odd-number years and VISION Congress in France in even-number years, and in a few months scheduled to give a lecture at a symposium in Taiwan.

• Voting member and task force chairman in the SAE Lighting Systems Group, contributing text to numerous SAE standards for vehicle lighting.

• Provides text that has been adopted in Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards 108 and 108.1, participated in a modernisation of Vietnam's vehicle lighting standards, advised Estonia's road traffic safety agency on matters related to foreign-standard vehicles' lighting compatibility with Estonian traffic, provided the counterpoint to the AAA Foundation's white paper on headlamp glare, served as the answer man on call-in radio shows and as the quoted expert in dozens of print, broadcast, and online news articles.

• NHTSA seems to think he knows what he's talking about (3rd paragraph up from the bottom -- the comments they're referring to can be read by going here, scrolling down to "Comments" clicking on a comment, then on that comment's own page clicking the little red PDF icon.


There's more, but this non-exhaustive list is probably long enough to give the thoughtful reader an idea of why the poor li'l ol' website doesn't get top priority. I'm sure J33P4X4's list of bona fides is more or less the same…right, J33P4X4?

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In his FAQ he essentially says that his FAQ will never go out of date
In his FAQ he essentially says nothing at all. That's because there is no FAQ.

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and HIDs are horrible in every application
You appear confused; I think you must be thinking of somebody else's website. The relevant article, right there at the end of the very first paragraph, says exactly the opposite of what you seem to think it says.

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and always will be, regardless of projector advancement.
I'm not entirely sure what "projector advancements" you have in mind, so I can't tell what kind of argument you're trying to put forth here. If your claim is that advancements in optics have made it possible to have a halogen headlamp that produces an effective, safe, legal beam pattern when fitted with an "HID kit", you're quite mistaken. We might as well discuss advancements in square wheels. The problem with "HID kits" is with the concept itself; it's not an implementation issue or a technology bottleneck or anything of that sort. And that's without even getting into the other (non-optical) problems with "retrofits" involving projectors affixed within what started out as reflector headlamps.

Quote:
apparently the halogen lights he sells haven't been made since the late 90s (according to a friend) and that he rebuys and rebuilds them to sell them.
This right here is the claim that gave such a belly laugh (thank you for that) as to warrant a scarce appearance on an internet forum—such exceptions are very rare; I can count them on one hand and still have enough fingers free to shift gears without spilling the can of soda pop I'm holding in the same hand. See the previous one and its old datestamp here, if you like.

But back to your friend's imaginative claim of rebuilt lamps: Refurbishing a lamp with a dead reflector is possible, and the refurbished reflector can be mated with the lens in the unlikely event the lens has no usage deterioration (pitting, cracking, etc), but proper re-reflectorisation costs about $140 each. I know because I just had it done for the first time in about a decade, to a reflector for an extremely scarce and very valuable vintage headlamp. That's before the cost of the appropriate adhesives and sealants and labour time.

Now, new Cibie headlamps are $79 each. So either Dan Stern is some kinda eccentric bazillionnaire night-driving philanthropist out to spend down his fortunes subsidising headlamp upgrades for the huddled masses yearning to see well at night, or your friend with the "rebuild" story is makin' stuff up as he goes along. Both explanations seem equally plausible to me, so I guess we need a tiebreaker: the web catalogue on the manufacturer's own website uses a red-yellow-green traffic light icon system to indicate the production status of whatever part number is entered. Green = current production. Yellow = available while remaining stocks last. Red = out of production and no stock remains. Whoever buys a headlamp can read the part number on the back of the lamp (next to the production date, which will generally be within 6 months of the date on which it's bought), then put that part number in on the web catalogue and spend many delightful hours staring at the pretty green traffic light while pondering at great length what kind of cookies a headlamp philanthropist would eat, anyhow.

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Not trying to start an argument
I'd like to think I just ended one, but probably not; this here's the internet—home of 45-page (and counting!) threads where facts and opinions and guesses and hallucinations and fairytales and baloney and salami and bulk wrap all have equal weight and rectitude. Over 'n' out!
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Old 08-10-2013, 11:40 PM   #1343
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Originally Posted by Sternlights View Post
Howdy, InvertChaos, and welcome to my one and only post on here.
Why, hello there Sternlights PR. Nice of you to pop by.

Quote:

Now let's see here:

• General Editor of Driving Vision News, the global automotive lighting and driver assistance industry journal headquartered in France (i.e., not headquartered on Dan Stern's desk in Canada). Membership (€4900/year and up) consists of most of the world's automakers and Tier-1 and -2 lighting manufacturers, most of the world's vehicle and traffic regulatory agencies and working groups, most of the world's traffic and vehicle research institutes and apposite university departments.

• 12-year appointed member of the National Academy of Sciences Transportation Research Board's Visibility Committee, which steers the bulk of driver vision and conspicuity research in North America.

• 12-year attendee and participant in the world's biennial vehicular lighting seminars, symposia, and technical congresses including the International Symposium on Automotive Lighting in Germany in odd-number years and VISION Congress in France in even-number years, and in a few months scheduled to give a lecture at a symposium in Taiwan.

• Voting member and task force chairman in the SAE Lighting Systems Group, contributing text to numerous SAE standards for vehicle lighting.

• Provides text that has been adopted in Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards 108 and 108.1, participated in a modernisation of Vietnam's vehicle lighting standards, advised Estonia's road traffic safety agency on matters related to foreign-standard vehicles' lighting compatibility with Estonian traffic, provided the counterpoint to the AAA Foundation's white paper on headlamp glare, served as the answer man on call-in radio shows and as the quoted expert in dozens of print, broadcast, and online news articles.

• NHTSA seems to think he knows what he's talking about (3rd paragraph up from the bottom -- the comments they're referring to can be read by going here, scrolling down to "Comments" clicking on a comment, then on that comment's own page clicking the little red PDF icon.
Thanks for listing his qualifications, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Quote:

In his FAQ he essentially says nothing at all. That's because there is no FAQ.

You appear confused; I think you must be thinking of somebody else's website. The relevant article, right there at the end of the very first paragraph, says exactly the opposite of what you seem to think it says.
You're right, I was mistaken, it wasn't in the FAQ that's been under development since the site's inception. The info I am talking about was deeper within the site under "HID Conversions and Disadvantages". And it actually says nearly exactly what I seem to think it says:
Quote:
From time to time, I am asked to comment on what are marketed as "new developments" in HID kits, and those asking sometimes point out to me that these "new developments" might render this article out-of-date, since the copyright date on the article is older than the date of these "new developments". Please understand, marketeers will always be coming up with dazzling new pseudoscience, tempting new hype and sneaky new ways of trying to convince you to buy their stuff. It's what they do. This article will never go out of date, because the problems with HID kits are conceptual problems, not problems of implementation. Therefore, they cannot be overcome by additional research and development, any more than someone could develop a way for you to put on somebody else's eyeglasses and see correctly.
Daniel Stern Lighting Consultancy and Supply

Let me emphasize on the "This article will never go out of date, because the problems with HID kits are conceptual problems, not problems of implementation." Is he suggesting that there have been NO advancements (IE, HID Projectors) since he has written the article. And that the issues with HIDs will NEVER be solved because the problem is conceptual?

Quote:
I'm not entirely sure what "projector advancements" you have in mind, so I can't tell what kind of argument you're trying to put forth here. If your claim is that advancements in optics have made it possible to have a halogen headlamp that produces an effective, safe, legal beam pattern when fitted with an "HID kit", you're quite mistaken. We might as well discuss advancements in square wheels. The problem with "HID kits" is with the concept itself; it's not an implementation issue or a technology bottleneck or anything of that sort. And that's without even getting into the other (non-optical) problems with "retrofits" involving projectors affixed within what started out as reflector headlamps.
I am in no way defending simply sticking and HID bulb into a halogen housing. That, of course, causes issues such as poor light output and blinding of other drivers. I am however defending the use of an HID projector retrofit replicating that which is used in every high end OEM application. The use of a bixenon projector with a cutoff shield and evenly distributed lighting. Also, advancements in HID lighting are present within the bulb itself. There is no plateau that has been reached as of yet.

Quote:
The only safe and legitimate HID retrofit is one that replaces the entire headlamp—that is lens, reflector, bulb...the whole system—with optics designed for HID usage. In the aftermarket, it is possible to get clever with the growing number of available products, such as Hella's modular projectors available in HID or halogen, and fabricate your own brackets and bezels.
On the website, he addresses a correct retrofit in the final two paragraphs while downplaying their significance. The ONLY safe and legitimate retrofit one must replace the ENTIRE headlamp? The projectors do not use the reflective surface of the headlamp at all, so why would it matter if the reflector around the projector is OEM, painted, or cardboard? It doesn't affect the light output at all since the distribution is done within the projector itself. In fact, certain "kits" (for example, this one Bi-xenon Morimoto Mini Stage III Kit (H1) - Complete Retrofit Kits from The Retrofit Source Inc) are very easy to install with a little hands-on work, and have light output and distribution that exceeds that of the OEM Hella projectors used in the e39 BMW, for example.

Quote:



This right here is the claim that gave such a belly laugh (thank you for that) as to warrant a scarce appearance on an internet forum—such exceptions are very rare; I can count them on one hand and still have enough fingers free to shift gears without spilling the can of soda pop I'm holding in the same hand. See the previous one and its old datestamp here, if you like.

But back to your friend's imaginative claim of rebuilt lamps: Refurbishing a lamp with a dead reflector is possible, and the refurbished reflector can be mated with the lens in the unlikely event the lens has no usage deterioration (pitting, cracking, etc), but proper re-reflectorisation costs about $140 each. I know because I just had it done for the first time in about a decade, to a reflector for an extremely scarce and very valuable vintage headlamp. That's before the cost of the appropriate adhesives and sealants and labour time.

Now, new Cibie headlamps are $79 each. So either Dan Stern is some kinda eccentric bazillionnaire night-driving philanthropist out to spend down his fortunes subsidising headlamp upgrades for the huddled masses yearning to see well at night, or your friend with the "rebuild" story is makin' stuff up as he goes along. Both explanations seem equally plausible to me, so I guess we need a tiebreaker: the web catalogue on the manufacturer's own website uses a red-yellow-green traffic light icon system to indicate the production status of whatever part number is entered. Green = current production. Yellow = available while remaining stocks last. Red = out of production and no stock remains. Whoever buys a headlamp can read the part number on the back of the lamp (next to the production date, which will generally be within 6 months of the date on which it's bought), then put that part number in on the web catalogue and spend many delightful hours staring at the pretty green traffic light while pondering at great length what kind of cookies a headlamp philanthropist would eat, anyhow.
The Cibie Z beams. Here is a nice bit about them from Daniel Stern himself in 2011 found here: whats the deal with Daniel stern lighting?... - JeepForum.com

I really liked that tone you adopted toward the end there, by the way.

Quote:
The lamps you want are Cibie H4 units, $74.95/ea. All of the
reputable-brand 7" headlamps presently available (Cibie,
Bosch, Hella) are well made of good quality materials, but
the Cibies are the best performers — proof on request.
There's a great deal of junk on the market, too. Delta,
Roundeyes, Adjure, Eagle Eye, Eaglite, Maxtel, Eurolite, and
dozens of other off-brand units mostly from China. Avoid all
of it; you've already got a set of pretty but useless toy
headlites. The Z-beams you mention are an exotic,
discontinued/no-longer-available lamp. Very expensive
(nearly $200/ea) because my stash of them is almost gone.
Your present headlamps are a generic store-brand hot dog.
The $75 Cibies are a good T-bone steak. The Z-beams are
filet mignon.
They're exotic and discontinued? That's weird. And here is what one of Stern's proponents has to say about the Z beams. Apparently they were discontinued in 1992. Cibie Z-Beams - what are they? Someone please help!

Quote:
They were made in Belgium and haven't been made since early '92.

I have a set from DS and the spread of light is impressive. I don't know if they'd be legal in the UK; they might be since they don't have the right-hand uptick of typical Euro-beams.

I'd avoid the counterfeits. Scheinwerfermann works in the industry and usually has sage advice.
The wash of light from them is functional art. It arcs gracefully from the periphery on both sides of the driver's field, avoids undue foreground spill, and maintains a seemingly linear degree of lux from side to side.

$111 each from Stern.
So Stern IS/was selling lights that haven't been made since the 90's, like I said. There is now a company that makes new replicas, but I can't speak for the quality.

Quote:

I'd like to think I just ended one, but probably not; this here's the internet—home of 45-page (and counting!) threads where facts and opinions and guesses and hallucinations and fairytales and baloney and salami and bulk wrap all have equal weight and rectitude. Over 'n' out!
I guess not, there seems to be some unanswered questions still. It was sure nice of you to stop by though. Perhaps that lighting FAQ will be up soon to address some of these questions.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:54 AM   #1344
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It takes alot to pry me back onto this forum.
But here goes.

All projectors are not the same. Just like any other piece of equipment on a vehicle. So they're not interchangeable ---- even if they look the same to a consumer.

And Morimoto? C'mon. If they made lift kits you guys wouldn't use them. They're not quality items ---- the only reason that there's debate on this issue is because it's a specialized field and true experts are few and fare between.
I am not an expert. I'm an advanced enthusiast that happens to work in a field that touches the industry. I've met people in the industry and spoken with them but all on the chemical (gas mixers) and measurement side.

But here you have a couple of very knowledgeable people that want nothing more than to give real answers, solve real problems, contribute in a real and substantive way. AlaricD knows his lights; listen to him. Dan Stern wrote the frickin book; listen to him. The only one missing from this discourse is Vern --- and you guys wouldn't want him to thrash you.

When you say the kind of things you're saying about lights, like shoving Morimoto projectors into a cobbled-together stock housing and fitting HIDs, calling it legal, it sounds as ridiculous to us as somebody suggesting that you can win the King of the Hammers in a stock Rav4 on 24s with low-pro tires.

If Dan sounds pissed off it's cause he is. Automotive lights are his life, livelihood, passion. He has a right to be pissed when you question the isness of what is.
There aren't any grey areas on this topic. He's stating facts.
He's sounding a little pissy about it, but they're facts.... (sorry, Dan)

And no matter how you try and kid yourselves, HID capsules don't/can't work right in any housing/projector/etc that was designed for filament lights. It's just physics.

BTW, buying and selling "new" old stock items isn't exclusive to Daniel Stern Lighting.
You can buy vintage Coltrane albums still in the wrapper if you look around.
I had a pair of vintage Cibies. Elegance in engineering.
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:39 PM   #1345
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Howdy, InvertChaos, and welcome to my one and only post on here.

Over 'n' out!
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Originally Posted by Sternlights View Post

(I said, "Over 'n' out". Meant it, too.
Okay I know you said you where only going to post 1x.. but it looks like you went back on your word.. then you posted some weak attempt at a slap back when someone pointed out some problems with your statement.. so in hopes that your still reading this.... let me ask... what was it like working with Billy Crystal and Jack Palance on city slickers?
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:25 PM   #1346
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Allow me to be the first, and certainly not last guy to say I'll never buy from you after reading this.
There are plenty of other people that WILL buy from him, because those are the people looking for a recognized industry expert to make recommendations, give advice, provide solutions, and just know what it is that he is talking about.

If you're turned off by these posts because a) they're not sugar-coated and b) they've refuted every thing you believe about what automotive lighting should be, well... there's a JC Whitney catalog with your name on it somewhere.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:26 PM   #1347
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then you posted some weak attempt at a slap back when someone pointed out some problems with your statement..
Problems with his statement? You mean, when someone pointed out that they *had problems* understanding his statement.
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:01 PM   #1348
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Problems with his statement? You mean, when someone pointed out that they *had problems* understanding his statement.
Nope, I mean what I said, unlike danny. The person asked additional questions, for clarification and instead of answering those like a professional that he claims to be... the expert attempted in a rather poor display to show the experts superior intellect(or over inflated ego) and fling some mud and posted a cute picture. Frankly I don't even know if that was danny or a rep for danny if so.. I think we may have a better understanding why he could only get work for a french mag.
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:55 PM   #1349
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I don't know what to tell you. His credentials read a mile long; J33P4X4 hasn't yet seen fit to post his.

I still don't understand the confusion on the new Cibié Z-Beams. Yes, they haven't been made since 1992, but that does not preclude anyone from having new in box Z-Beams for sale.

I'm now genuinely confused as to what constitutes an expert here. Is it the one who does the most handwaving? The one with the highest post count? The biggest sponsor? The best liar?
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:12 PM   #1350
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The Morimoto Mini is also pretty poor, but that's not unexpected considering it's named to sound Japanese but they're just cranked out in some anonymous Chinese factory. There are quite a few threads out there which shows how poorly they are made, and the kludges it takes to get them installed and "working". A sampling: How To: Pre-Install Morimoto Mini Tips - Page 2
My Morimoto Mini solenoids are sticking...Anyone else??

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