The Official JK Aftermarket Lighting Thread (HID, HALO, Fog, Etc..) - Page 46 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:09 PM   #1351
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Originally Posted by AlaricD View Post
I don't know what to tell you. His credentials read a mile long; J33P4X4 hasn't yet seen fit to post his.
Well, I had to wait till I had some free time to address your comments. So here's some from memory because I can't copy and past it all on my phone.

I have been an exterior lighting engineer for a major OEM vehicle maker for over 15 years. I have not written any SAE papers or anything like that. I didn't challenge Sterns information. I just said the guy posting didn't know much about it.; He just read Dans info and was trying say that my opinion was uninformed. I choose to run hid bulb in my halogen reflectors. Even with the crappy beam pattern, it yields more light on the road. I aimed them down because the hotspot is above HV. I know there is light above HV that exceeds legal requirements. It's my personal vehicle and I can make my own decisions. I wouldn't do that as part of my job or produce any lamps with a illegal beam pattern. I don't represent my company with my personal vehicle.

I didnt know about the HID bulbs for reflectors, my company has never used them not have they been offered by any supplier I have interfaced with- thanks for the info!

Other then that, your comments about my information were mostly adding additional detail that only a few people would even care about. The point I don't agree with you is about the projector shield. The cutoff in the beam pattern is specifically determined by the shape if the shield. The foreground and smoothness of the pattern is determined by the reflector (inside the projector). That's why all the lighting suppliers use rotating drums and multiple shields to control the light in their AFL headlamps. Hella, automotive lighting, Valeo, ZKW, SL, and even Mobis all use these techniques to manipulate beam functions and beam patterns. That being said, it doesn't guarantee that a halogen projector will yield a legal beam pattern with an HID retrofit; I don't think it will. But people can do what they want.

I guess the internets is serious business. This place was suppose to be fun!

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:29 AM   #1352
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Originally Posted by AlaricD View Post

There are plenty of other people that WILL buy from him, because those are the people looking for a recognized industry expert to make recommendations, give advice, provide solutions, and just know what it is that he is talking about.

If you're turned off by these posts because a) they're not sugar-coated and b) they've refuted every thing you believe about what automotive lighting should be, well... there's a JC Whitney catalog with your name on it somewhere.
That doesn't mean he needs to talk down to people like that, and it certainly doesn't mean you need to talk down to me. I haven't said one word about lighting on here, so who are you to attack my beliefs and knowledge on the topic? I came here looking for information and instead I found insults.

You're exactly right. This forum is full of "people looking for a recognized industry expert to make recommendations, give advice, provide solutions..." but instead of doing any of that, Sternlights came on here not to provide any help but to use his "one and only" two posts to puff his chest and belittle someone instead. Why would I support that, regardless of his expertise? Sugarcoating has nothing to do with anything... if he had simply posted the advice, solutions, and recommendations that you claim he can provide then there would be nothing to sugarcoat. Throwing insults around does nothing but diminish your credibility.

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Old 08-12-2013, 09:17 AM   #1353
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Originally Posted by J33P4X4 View Post
Even with the crappy beam pattern, it yields more light on the road. I aimed them down because the hotspot is above HV. I know there is light above HV that exceeds legal requirements. It's my personal vehicle and I can make my own decisions.
More light on the road, in the sky, in the other drivers' eyes... A crappy beam pattern is not made better by more light.

It's your vehicle, but it's not your highway or city street. You share those with other people. You're still giving them excessive glare (whether direct or specular), and you're still hurting your own vision with excessive foreground light and backscatter.

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I didnt know about the HID bulbs for reflectors, my company has never used them not have they been offered by any supplier I have interfaced with- thanks for the info!
They may not have been offered by the suppliers, but they should be in the supplier catalogs. Definitely in the manufacturer catalogs from Philips, among others. If no OEMs used reflector HIDs, the Philips D2R would simply not exist. They're not in the habit of making, packaging, and stocking bulbs that have no legal application. Certainly not packaging them up to sell for automotive use.

And these aren't just HID bulbs for reflectors, these are HID bulbs for those reflectors *designed* to take them.

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Other then that, your comments about my information were mostly adding additional detail that only a few people would even care about.
But you cared about it when you wanted to prove that other posters weren't the expert that you say you are.

Quote:
The point I don't agree with you is about the projector shield. The cutoff in the beam pattern is specifically determined by the shape if the shield.
Cutoff is not the determinant of a beam pattern you might think it is.

Quote:
That being said, it doesn't guarantee that a halogen projector will yield a legal beam pattern with an HID retrofit; I don't think it will. But people can do what they want.
It *can't* guarantee, ever. It's the nature of the different light sources and the different reflectors and optics involved. And when people "do what they want", it can lead to property damage, bodily injury, and perhaps fatalities.

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I guess the internets is serious business. This place was suppose to be fun!
It still CAN be fun, and it's more fun when it's safer, and when misinformation isn't handed out and accepted so gladly.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:03 AM   #1354
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But you cared about it when you wanted to prove that other posters weren't the expert that you say you are.

It *can't* guarantee, ever. It's the nature of the different light sources and the different reflectors and optics involved
No, I didn't care about the detail. The list was to show that lighting legality is very complex. They were rhetorical questions.

The intent of my posts were to show all the things that have to be considered in order demonstrate compliance to the law. Compliance is demonstrated by using a very specific system and validating it to legal specifications. I was pointing out that a change to any of those items would invalidate the OEM compliance. Obviously, using an HID retrofit is an extreme example of this. So, its easy to assume its not legal. in order to prove any lighting system is legal, one would have to validate that exact system in a specific vehicle.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:35 PM   #1355
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No, I didn't care about the detail. The list was to show that lighting legality is very complex. They were rhetorical questions.
They didn't seem rhetorical at the time. It's not like you asked if the Space Pope was a lizard. (Futurama)

Quote:
in order to prove any lighting system is legal, one would have to validate that exact system in a specific vehicle.
Not really, no.
In the case of the Peterson 701C, or the JW Speaker or Peterson 7" round headlamp offerings, you don't, if you're installing them properly to replace an OEM sealed-beam or tungsten-halogen 7" round headlamp. They should also fit in many Jeeps, like Hilldweller's '08 Sahara. No validation needed for the specific vehicle; the assembly is already certified by the manufacturer and so long as it properly fits the vehicle and you've aimed them properly, you're done.
(You've made quite a few blanket statements, such as "this is why all OEM HID systems use projector beams" and you keep doing so. Yes, you had a gap in your knowledge, and I can't fault you for that-- but I can fault you for verifying things before making such a statement.)

Designing a new car? Sure, if you're designing new headlamps for it then by all means make sure it complies. But when the product is off-the-shelf, made by a reputable maker, and it fits the vehicle(s) for which it is designed, they've already taken care of it. This is why a 7" round tungsten-halogen lamp fits the '65 Dart and the '76 Corolla and the '81 CJ5. Each of those vehicles has dramatically different mounting heights and widths for the lamps, but the lamp is compliant in each one of them.

Homemade lights, however, are just a no-no. This includes gluing things together and bolting in projectors. The rarity of a homemade "retrofit" being done well enough to the point that it could pass every single requirement for durability, aim maintenance, UV resistance, and such, is so high that essentially it just "can't be done".
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:18 PM   #1356
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Originally Posted by AlaricD View Post
Homemade lights, however, are just a no-no. This includes gluing things together and bolting in projectors. The rarity of a homemade "retrofit" being done well enough to the point that it could pass every single requirement for durability, aim maintenance, UV resistance, and such, is so high that essentially it just "can't be done".
That sure looks like a blanket statement.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:31 PM   #1357
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This is why all OEM HID systems use projector beams.
THAT is a blanket statement, which is clearly false and clearly very easily refuted.

My statement about homemade headlamps is not false, and not easily refuted (or at all, actually).

If you have a few (or more than a few) thousand dollars for R&D and independent testing, and have access to equipment to do the vacuum deposition of aluminum for the reflectors, the cleanroom and equipment to apply the UV-protecting hardcoat on the lenses, and are willing to certify that your headlamp produces a compliant beam and meets every other requirement (UV resistance and durability and all), then go for it. This is quite difficult to do, even when you throw tons of money at it. You must consider center of gravity, moments of inertia, environmental sealing (yet proper ventilation). It must use the right adhesives, or outgassing from them will ruin the vacuum-deposited aluminum on the reflectors, or the lens optics.

You designed lights for cars, right? Was it headlamps, taillamps, opera lights? Whatever it was, do you honestly think someone, or someone and his buddies, can just build a headlamp in their workshop approaching even a Guide headlamp, let alone Koito or Valeo Sylvania?
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:33 AM   #1358
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I have 'Morimoto mini' H1 HID projectors in my factory housings and I love them. People stop and ask me about them all the time

What blows people away though is the wiring harness I had to build in order to get it all working.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:36 AM   #1359
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Originally Posted by efm-7 View Post
I have 'Morimoto mini' H1 HID projectors in my factory housings and I love them. People stop and ask me about them all the time

What blows people away though is the wiring harness I had to build in order to get it all working.
Do you have a build thread for these?
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:52 AM   #1360
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I do - 2013 Jeep Wrangler Retrofit

However, I have updated the circuit to use bigger transistors (2N2219) and I would suggest protection diodes at the relays which I forgot to add in my initial design.
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Old 08-24-2013, 01:54 PM   #1361
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Originally Posted by efm-7 View Post
I have 'Morimoto mini' H1 HID projectors in my factory housings and I love them. People stop and ask me about them all the time

What blows people away though is the wiring harness I had to build in order to get it all working.
You didn't use the harness from TRS?

Here's how mine turned out

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Old 08-24-2013, 11:55 PM   #1362
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Very nice! Did you use the minis? I never had my TJ long enough to do a retro. I was satisfied with an H4 conversion housing lol.

I always make my own harnesses. The JK was a bit problematic in that it has really odd duty cycles while the engine is running - making it hard to solve with a simple capacitor harness. Ended up having to build a circuit with lowpass filters, comparators, and logic gates to ,maintain proper operation of high, low, and DRLs.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:45 PM   #1363
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There are other threads for legality or what not, and I understand why it was explained not to speak of such things here as it can quickly turn into a heated debate.

I can tell you though, I have no experience in regards to the science behind HID or LED or halogen, though I am experienced in the laws in my state.

I am just the average Jeep enthusiast that enjoys the forums.

BUUUT, I will say, though Stern may have the best looking resume... his delivery was terrible. If your reading this, your an expert, share your knowledge man! I understand it being frustrating for people to come on here and spout (what you think) nonsense but educate us. But instead I feel that your post was arrogant and belittling.

I can honestly say, I considered purchasing some products from Stern but looks like I am going elsewhere.

I am going planning on a H1 projector retrofit from TRS.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:40 AM   #1364
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I've done HID's in every vehicle that I've owned but the new CANBUS system worries me. I don't want buy a system that may not work and I don't have the extra money for the Truck-Lite's.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:04 AM   #1365
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Rigid LED's & Truck Lites

Just thought I would share my two cents here since I bought some off-road LED's. I also recently added the Truck-Lite LED's to my rig, but don't have pictures of them yet. However, what I can tell you. Spend the money on the Truck Lites...they are well worth it. 1st they are Made in America and when you feel them & see them in action you will get that "oh yeah...American Made" feeling. 2nd, they crush the bulb upgrades and factory lights. My off-road LED's are all Rigid Industries. I have the Dually Fog's, D2 Driving, & the 10" Combo mounted at the winch. I do plan to add the 50" Combo over the winter but need to pay off some of the stuff I bought before my wife kills me.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:24 AM   #1366
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Regarding the third pic: "Astonished Jeep is astonished!"
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:27 AM   #1367
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...Real question here: What's wrong with Morimotos? Are they not a nice entry level projector a la Zone or BDS is to suspensions? Here is my problem, I have no issue being wrong, I have an issue with people saying someone is wrong and not backing things up with facts, or thinking that they are too far "above" the masses to take the time to explain things.....
No, not like a Zone/BDS. More like somebody doing a 4" bodylift, sticking on big tires, bumpers/winch, and declaring that their mods equal a well-planned and executed Rock Krawler build.
It's a hatchet-job. To somebody inside the industry, it's a joke. If you're not inside the industry, you don't get the joke...
I realize that might hurt but that's how it is.

I have a friend that just replaced two 7" HID offroad lights with a big LED lightbar. He remarked that he could see much better offroad at night now.
We had previously tested the HIDs and I had to set my light meter to a higher scale to measure them. Stupid bright at 75 yards.
Well, we tested the LED lightbar. 1 LUX at 50 yards. One. Same as the moonlight we were testing by.
He's still running the lightbar though. Likes it better.

I work in test and measurement. That's what I do 5 days a week. I work for the best of the best in the world. I work for scientists, genius type, rocket scientists, etc. I'm not a scientist; I'm an administrator.
I've learned to trust and follow experts. Be coachable. Learn. Use their smarts to acheive success.

Dan's cranky but I understand why. He's telling you that the emperor has no clothes and you keep insisting that the dude is wearing Armani. The same arguments have been hurtling at him for decades and it tires a guy out.

Lights aren't a fashion accessory for me; they're essential safety equipment. I'm a safety-guy.
I'm a do-it-yourselfer too but I know when I'm out of my league and ask for help. Dan has been helping me figure out lighting for over a decade. Thanks, Dan.
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Old 09-18-2013, 07:41 PM   #1368
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No, not like a Zone/BDS. More like somebody doing a 4" bodylift, sticking on big tires, bumpers/winch, and declaring that their mods equal a well-planned and executed Rock Krawler build.
It's a hatchet-job. To somebody inside the industry, it's a joke. If you're not inside the industry, you don't get the joke...
I realize that might hurt but that's how it is.

I have a friend that just replaced two 7" HID offroad lights with a big LED lightbar. He remarked that he could see much better offroad at night now.
We had previously tested the HIDs and I had to set my light meter to a higher scale to measure them. Stupid bright at 75 yards.
Well, we tested the LED lightbar. 1 LUX at 50 yards. One. Same as the moonlight we were testing by.
He's still running the lightbar though. Likes it better.

I work in test and measurement. That's what I do 5 days a week. I work for the best of the best in the world. I work for scientists, genius type, rocket scientists, etc. I'm not a scientist; I'm an administrator.
I've learned to trust and follow experts. Be coachable. Learn. Use their smarts to acheive success.

Dan's cranky but I understand why. He's telling you that the emperor has no clothes and you keep insisting that the dude is wearing Armani. The same arguments have been hurtling at him for decades and it tires a guy out.

Lights aren't a fashion accessory for me; they're essential safety equipment. I'm a safety-guy.
I'm a do-it-yourselfer too but I know when I'm out of my league and ask for help. Dan has been helping me figure out lighting for over a decade. Thanks, Dan.
I think I have said this three times now, but I'll say it again nice and concisely.

Any expert in their field should have the ability to take a concept and explain it in a way in which the layman can understand.

I see it done every single day by people with credentials that dwarf yourself's and Dan's. Actually, a doctorate candidate with a B.S. in Electrical Engineering, and a Masters in Theoretical Physics (a true expert) was explaining dark matter to me last week. Yet, yourself and Dan completely refuse to and instead say "trust us". So please, go ahead and explain exactly why the Morimotos are inferior. Do you think that the explanation is above understanding? Because I don't think it is if you have a valid argument. Elaborate on what is technically wrong with them.

I'm not sure if you gentlemen consider yourself superior to the masses and unworthy of your explanation, or if you do not have an argument at all.
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:18 PM   #1369
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My 2012 Rubicon needed better lights for drives on dark mountain roads.
Wanted something stealthy and close to stock look. Got the bi-halogen Hella headlight replacemet set up from SMS. Works great for me with razor sharp focus.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:31 AM   #1370
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Q re: TLGA harness

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Originally Posted by Mopar2Ya View Post
He's refering to the antiflicker harness from TLGA.
Thanks for the great info here.

My situation is I'm not touching my '13 JKUR's headlights (at the moment). I just want to install a set of KC Slimlites to switch on/off with my hi beams for better lighting offroad and back roads in Maine. As I understand from hours of reading this thread beginning to end, I need to cure the WPM coming from the high beam signal wire or it'll fry my included KC relay (quickly or eventually). Correct? So, the Q is will this harness work like a SMS one? I assume NOT, because this adapts the wiring to a new socket type (H13 to H4).

Thus, seems like my choices are go SMS or solder in the cap/diode solution. Does that make sense to the gurus here? If I am using the KC harness*, can anyone ID the wires between which I need to solder the cap/diode? I would REALLY appreciate that help. Thanks much.

*KC harness instrux/diagram:
http://www.quadratec.com/Assets/Installation/18718.pdf
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Old 10-14-2013, 04:28 PM   #1371
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I may be missing something here, but I think you are looking at the wrong solution here. You could use an SMS type harness, but not the one we usually talk about here because it is for the headlights. The cap/diode solution you are talking about is to cure the pulse width modulation (PWM) issue with the power feed to the headlight. You don't want that. You want to take the signal for the high beam, use it to turn on a relay, and have that relay powered straight off the battery. You could buy a harness to do this, but it is pretty straightforward to make one.

Basically it would be just like your diagram you linked, but using the high beam switch instead of a normal switch.

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Originally Posted by micahd View Post

Thanks for the great info here.

My situation is I'm not touching my '13 JKUR's headlights (at the moment). I just want to install a set of KC Slimlites to switch on/off with my hi beams for better lighting offroad and back roads in Maine. As I understand from hours of reading this thread beginning to end, I need to cure the WPM coming from the high beam signal wire or it'll fry my included KC relay (quickly or eventually). Correct? So, the Q is will this harness work like a SMS one? I assume NOT, because this adapts the wiring to a new socket type (H13 to H4).

Thus, seems like my choices are go SMS or solder in the cap/diode solution. Does that make sense to the gurus here? If I am using the KC harness*, can anyone ID the wires between which I need to solder the cap/diode
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:44 PM   #1372
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Hi beam wire to control DL relay?

I agree 100% tapping the hi beam wire to control my relay is what I wanted to do. But according to the thread, it seems if I do that I'll burn out my relay due to the pulsed current (from the hi beam wire I tap) hitting my relay. Right? Or is the power feed to the hi beam not affected by PWM? If not, I'm fine. But I thought that was the case.

So I think I need a solution to getting non-PWM'd controlling voltage at my relay. Which seems to be the cap/diode solution. I'm happy to do that, I'm just not sure where in the KC harness to use them. As I have the KC harness which includes fuse, relay holder, relay, miles of cased wire, etc., I'm hoping to modify that rather than make my own.

Maybe my best bet is to just make all the connections without installing anything, and see if the relay buzzes or the lights flicker. There's certainly nothing on Quadratec or Amazon about this issue (yet).

Thx much!

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I may be missing something here, but I think you are looking at the wrong solution here. You could use an SMS type harness, but not the one we usually talk about here because it is for the headlights. The cap/diode solution you are talking about is to cure the pulse width modulation (PWM) issue with the power feed to the headlight. You don't want that. You want to take the signal for the high beam, use it to turn on a relay, and have that relay powered straight off the battery. You could buy a harness to do this, but it is pretty straightforward to make one.

Basically it would be just like your diagram you linked, but using the high beam switch instead of a normal switch.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:20 PM   #1373
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I may have answered my own Q -- found this wisdom buried in the thread:

<<< For the buzzing relays, all you need is a capacitor in parallel with the lowbeam line coming from the H13 connector. I'm not sure what value you need to use but I've seen 4700uf being used to smooth out DRLs. Im sure it can smooth out a notchy lowbeam too. >>>

Is that all, folks? In my case I'd use it on the highs, of course...

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Originally Posted by micahd View Post
Thanks for the great info here.

My situation is I'm not touching my '13 JKUR's headlights (at the moment). I just want to install a set of KC Slimlites to switch on/off with my hi beams for better lighting offroad and back roads in Maine. As I understand from hours of reading this thread beginning to end, I need to cure the WPM coming from the high beam signal wire or it'll fry my included KC relay (quickly or eventually). Correct? So, the Q is will this harness work like a SMS one? I assume NOT, because this adapts the wiring to a new socket type (H13 to H4).

Thus, seems like my choices are go SMS or solder in the cap/diode solution. Does that make sense to the gurus here? If I am using the KC harness*, can anyone ID the wires between which I need to solder the cap/diode? I would REALLY appreciate that help. Thanks much.

*KC harness instrux/diagram:
http://www.quadratec.com/Assets/Installation/18718.pdf
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:07 PM   #1374
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Oh, I see what you are trying to do now. I didn't realize the relay would get fried from the PWM. I hadn't seen that before. Those uses of the caps are to fix flickering headlights, but I guess they would smooth the feed to the relay just as well.

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I may have answered my own Q -- found this wisdom buried in the thread
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:57 AM   #1375
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Too many posts and pages to read all this stuff so, at the risk of posting something that's already been posted:

* I highly recommend you contact Wil at Rally Lights, Hella, TerraTrip, Hans, WRC, ZAMP - RallyLights.com (Susquehanna Motorsports) - they make great products and they know their stuff and they'll talk to you about what they know and take the time to explain it.

* I have heard that Daniel Stern buys his harnesses from them. You can do that too if you're so inclined.

* I bought my headlight replacements from them - Hella E-Code lights with Xenon +50% bulbs (white not blue). They work great and are far less than the Truck-Lites and Speakers. (I have plenty of LEDs to supplement my headlights so I feel no need to spend hundreds on my headlights).


Oh, and if this is the "official light thread" it's (IMO) almost useless. Who can spend the time to read it all?! Separate threads based on subject/mod are infinitely better.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:55 PM   #1376
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Too many posts and pages to read all this stuff so, at the risk of posting something that's already been posted: * I highly recommend you contact Wil at Rally Lights, Hella, TerraTrip, Hans, WRC, ZAMP - RallyLights.com (Susquehanna Motorsports) - they make great products and they know their stuff and they'll talk to you about what they know and take the time to explain it. * I have heard that Daniel Stern buys his harnesses from them. You can do that too if you're so inclined. * I bought my headlight replacements from them - Hella E-Code lights with Xenon +50% bulbs (white not blue). They work great and are far less than the Truck-Lites and Speakers. (I have plenty of LEDs to supplement my headlights so I feel no need to spend hundreds on my headlights). Oh, and if this is the "official light thread" it's (IMO) almost useless. Who can spend the time to read it all?! Separate threads based on subject/mod are infinitely better.
Did they come with the harnesses too? It looks like you the harnesses are over 100$ on their own.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:26 AM   #1377
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Talking Lighting Sub-Threads

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Separate threads based on subject/mod are infinitely better.
I found this metathread to be a priceless resource that's as unwieldy as any message board's long thread.
So how would they organize things in Santa Clarita?
By brand? By lumens? By price? Then I'd still have to read all the sub-threads to compare.

I still agree there is a divergence of interests here. Maybe a breakdown for "Off road" and "On road"? Then maybe an off-road breakout between lights that need other mods, like wiring harnesses and diodes, and more straightforward applications like replacing OEM fog lamps with LEDs? But then I don't know what to call that sub-thread.

Like all message boards, this one is not easily searchable, but I can't think of a simple way to make it so.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:19 PM   #1378
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Anyone have the KC Hilites replacement LED headlights?
http://www.quadratec.com/products/97025_0020.htm
How would they compare to the trucklites?
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Old 11-04-2013, 05:10 AM   #1379
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I have had Truck lights on my past jeep, i have to say HID is the way to go.
It has alot wider and brighter beam pattern, and you have manage to adjust the pattern yourself like the stock lights incase if you lift your jeep higher (lower the pattern a bit).
Among the temparature, i always get 4300k-5000k, this way its not too ricey like civic 8000k HID more like lexus HID with halogen lights. And this comparison wins because its like $500 versus $50.
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Old 11-05-2013, 01:27 AM   #1380
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Did they come with the harnesses too? It looks like you the harnesses are over 100$ on their own.
I ordered E-Code headlights with Xenon Plus 50 and it was $221.00 for the complete kit with wiring harness. $234.78 total including UPS ground shipping and insurance. Compared to the $370.49 for the Truck-Lites, I saved $135.22 going this route.

Here's all the info if you're interested:
Truck-Lites or another option? Here's what I did...

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