I say fiat is trying to let us down softly....first it was a rumor...no SFAs then it appears no new wrangler till 2017 ....sign of a complete re engineer.. Now "Jeep’s CEO Mike Manley sees a reason for this potential change in direction. “You can’t sell 19,000-plus retail Wranglers [as the brand did in May] to people who just want to go off-roading,” Manley told AutoNews. “Why would, for example, somebody else’s SUV that’s really an on-road soft SUV not be for me a genuine target for Wrangler?”
I will never buy the POS they intend on building..their junk compass and junk patriot failed in the soft market now they want to GUT the wrangler to use its name for marketshare...
would u ever buy a compass modified for SFAs no then why would u never buy a wrangler built as ISF then made into SFA... in short I will never buy a 2017 or newer wrangler..
he argues that 19k sales a month are not to offroaders I AGREE that most including myself don't offroad...BUT I LIKE KNOWING I COULD.. its what I spent the money for... I spent money for something I never use....and I suspect MANY of the 19k a month did also...but with the thought of JUST IN CASE I NEED IT in mind.....I bought the wrangler
I intend to trade my 2013 and buy a 2016 rubicon and keep it forever...I would strongly sugest ALL of you do the same...the wrangler now is to the new 2017 wrangler what the Cherokee was to the liberty and new Cherokee...that is awesome with SFA versus the junk that replaced it
its sad fiat wants to wreck a proven vehicle...in the same breath bragging about its 19k sales a month then disparaging that same vehicle for now being a rav 4.
I'm not convinced it will happen. But if it does, I'll just pay the extra few thousand for the Toyota LC70 short wheelbase which is still in production here. Almost as good as a JK, it just needs anti slip or lockers installed. The Defender 90 is another option but they are just too expensive. But I'm rooting for Jeep.
You wont see a Wrangler with coil springs in my driveway. I am lucky I have a 95 rust free example of a true offroad machine. I don't want or need airbags, IFS, ABS or ABC for that matter . Fiat will learn the lesson too late that all of this garbage is not why people buy and has always bought Jeeps. The public wants a tough go any where vehicle not a luxury car.
Also, I have said it before, it is possible to make a capable off road vehicle with IFS but the cost of engineering, modifying, and maintaining is way too high.
I read an article the other day where the author thinks (pure speculation) the next Wrangler may not have a removable top but instead a super sized sunroof. My guess for 2017 - I think you're looking at IFS, the fold-down front window is gone, and they'll be more aerodynamic (less boxy). Those things won't change their sales numbers dramatically but losing the removable top I believe would be catastrophic for Fiat/Jeep.
I read an article the other day where the author thinks (pure speculation) the next Wrangler may not have a removable top but instead a super sized sunroof. My guess for 2017 - I think you're looking at IFS, the fold-down front window is gone, and they'll be more aerodynamic (less boxy). Those things won't change their sales numbers dramatically but losing the removable top I believe would be catastrophic for Fiat/Jeep.
Well I had hoped to keep my 2000 TJ till I could see the next one, but I sold it for parts last week - frame rot not worth the cost of repair I for one quite like what Mike is saying -THE Jeep has to come into 21st century. He knows the entire Jeep brand hangs on the Wrangler - it is Jeep's mitochondrial DNA. He will not kill it - at the very least the next 'Rubicon' will need to match or better the current one on the trail for the press previews. There is still scope for smaller engines and (much) better road handling for those who want the looks without the mud. CAFE is an average - make the next Rubicon expensive and unbeatable and something shiny, puny but economical at the other end of the range. For those religiously anti IFS, please note there are plenty of very serious off-road vehicles out there (e.g. Bowler EXR, BMW X-Raid) that already have IFS. Of course if I am wrong then AEV will be getting yet another order for full tricked last build JK.
These threads make me laugh. Jeep is selling every single Wrangler they can build right now. They have added people simply to keep up.
Honestly, its the people yelling the wrangler has already been ruined or I will never have a Jeep with coil springs that is making it easier for Fiat to go soft -ute with the next gen. If you have already removed yourself from their pool of prospective buyers, why would they cater to you? they already have tons of people lined up to buy, so why go after the small % that says they already suck?
Yea but sooner or later our vehicles will need to be replaced. Do they really want to alienate themselves from potential customers when other manufacturers will fill the void?
IFS will save the wrangler from certain death......for guys who do easy off roading like myself ie fins and things, hells revenge, top of the world that kind of stuff IFS would kick ass. lighter, handle better etc. Hard core guys will still be able to be hard core, look at king of hammers I saw a lot of IFS there doing pretty freaking hard core rock and rolling they will just have to spend more money. lol.
Guys, the powers that determine whether the next gen Wrangler has IFS or a number of other changes couldn't care less about a handful of off-roaders who won't buy it if these changes means increased sales to the general public. Most Wranglers spend 99.99% of the time being driven ON the road anyway, so why not set things up based on where it will be used most (if not all) of the time.
True it is all about the sales. But the point I am trying to make, again this is just my opinion, is that "these changes" will not increase sales. Clearly on road handling isn't what makes Wranglers sell. I believe they sell because it is the only 4x4 convertable with an iconic design that is sold in North America. Any changes to that winning formula that seperates the Wrangler from the competition and consumers will look else where.
You people crack me up. Running around like your hair is on fire and your ass is catching, puking blood about something that is pure conjecture at this point in time.
It might be wise to wait and see what actually hits the showroom floor and see what it looks like and how it performs both on and off road before carping and bad mouthing you haven't seen or driven then if you don't like it don't buy it.
I'm sure that Chrysler will still sell all thy can build regardless of design change's
I understand what IFS is. Most modern cars have it. But, can someone explain why a Jeep with IFS would be less offroad capable than one without?
One thing I briefly read is that IFS can't droop as low as non-IFS suspension (like the Jeeps). From my understanding, this is because the CV joint operating angle is limited. Am I right?
Well it wouldn't if the IFS is designed and implemented properly!
It is all a matter of articulation - the ability of the wheels to move up and down - and ground clearance, particularly under 'jounce'.
The issue with articulation is related to constant velocity joints - the joints that allow torque to go round corners - if the angles between the two joined parts get too extreme they heat-up, wear and quickly fail. To get the overall wheel travel up but keep the angles reasonable requires long travel arms that are hard to fit in with everything else going on.
The ground clearance issue comes from the ability of the wheels on either side coming up leaving the underside to bottom out. With a solid axle the differential case remains fixed between the wheels so overall radius of wheel plus tire determines the clearance to it - and if one side lifts the case goes up too; not so with IFS. The Humvee has IFS and it can bottom out under circumstances where a Landrover Defender can plough on through (seen it myself).
Jeep long ago had a research project called "Lil' Blue" that solved many of the above issues in practical mechanical manner. Add to that the increasing use of electronics (witness ESC) and air suspension (Discovery and Range Rover) and it is obvious a capable IFS is now a serious possibility; indeed the top Paris-Dakar Raid contenders are (probably) all now IFS.
For the next Wrangler, IF Jeep can keep the contents of the engine bay narrow (or push the engine up and back a bit) I would not be surprised that a larger wheel/tire combination will be used as standard. This equates to free ground clearance and is a partial substitute for any loss of articulation (but see above). It also helps keeps the centre of gravity lower and that improves safety and handling at road speeds.
E&OE. Someone from inside the industry please correct my nomenclature.
I couldn't believe jeep put four doors on the wrangler. Might as well put 'Suburban' badge on it. I understand their reason for it as well as pruducing a two wheel drive option. To the corporation ONLY new vehicle customers matter. Us in the secondary market, the ones who actually take jeeps out and use them as they are intended, are irrelevant to the corporation. True, we give and keep the brand momentum and loyalty, but the corporation doesn't make money off used car purchases. The risk they run is diluting the wrangler so much in an effort for even broader appeal, consumers may opt for other semi-competitors. Why not an f-150 with 4wd? And you get a usable bed that actually holds stuff? Tundra? That's an option too. Bottom line, you try too much to appeal to too many people you end up with a product no one is loyal too. By the way, does Harley Davidson feel the need to build crotch rockets?
Ok I will boycott 2017 wrangler. My first problem will be coming up with something to replace my 2006 WK Hemi. The new Cherokee does not trip my trigger.
OP please post a picture of the 2017 Wrangler so I know what the boycott is all about.
The JK was good and bad. They added some good stuff that made it more capable, but they dumbed it down a little because the vehicle has to "progress" into the modern car world.
The same thing will happen with the new wrangler. Jeep will make some good upgrades/changes that will be trail worthy and then the aftermarket will pick up the slack. Someone will make a solid axle swap kit.
The current Wrangler has little in common with the MB/GPW, yet it still sells because it is all we can get. What are you going to buy instead? An International Scout III? A Nissan Patrol? A Land Rover Defender?
Raging about something that doesn't even exist yet is pointless.
I wouldn't say raging about something at this time is pointless. I'm sure threads like these are seen by somebody who works for jeep. It tells jeep what the enthusiasts are actually looking for and how important these things are to them. Being a couple years out yet there may even still be time for changes.
Vehicle designs are based on engineering of existing designs/prototypes and market research that shows successful outcomes, subject to external variables.
Vehicles are subject to NHTSA design mandates and must be engineered to meet them.
Vehicles are subject to EPA pollution and CAFE mandates.
Vehicle designs are cost averaged for minimal fixed and variable costing and maximum profit margin.
Contractors must be able to supply the required parts and sub-assemblies within the given production schedules.
Jeep, Chrysler USA, and Fiat Chrysler Automotive do not design vehicles based on anything anyone in an internet vehicle enthusiast forum posts. Why? The input is not quantitatively or qualitatively accurate. The posters are never verified. The information submitted is not statistically verifiable. These are several of the most important statistical 'fails' in your assertion.
FCA and Jeep use vehicle focus groups that they can independently control and factor all variables for. Example - make certain everyone on the group owns a Wrangler; make certain everyone is of legitimate driving age; make certain that the owner drives the vehicle a certain number of miles in a given period of time repeatedly; ensure that new owners, long term, and intermediate levels of ownership are represented; make certain that the desired owner demographic is accurate; make certain that the hard core off roader, the casual off roader, and the never going to off road it ownership is represented; etc.
One can't run an auto company as if it were a small family owned business. Scientifically valid statistical studies are critical to analyze market share, design variables, and business performance, within the existing constraints.
Tempest in a teapot...but I'll stir the pot even more...
A few months ago (maybe a year ago now) we were in our local Jeep/Ram/Chrysler/Fiat dealer (the one where I bought my Cummins Ram) looking at Wranglers for Mrs. H. The salesman told us the EcoDiesel already in the Grand Cherokee and about to debut in the Ram would be available in "next years" Wrangler.
He also mentioned that by 2016/17 (I don't recall which) the Wrangler will no longer be a body on frame design but will be unibody - essentially a larger, square Cherokee - I inferred that would come with IFS vs. SFA.
Now, it doesn't add up (aside from the fact that the diesel still isn't out in the Wrangler).
Why would they put the EcoDiesel in the solid axle, body on frame, removable top Wrangler for 1-2 years before killing it off? Could happen I suppose but from what I can tell, they sell every current model Wrangler they can roll off the line.
A couple of dealers I've spoken with indicate they can't get enough Wranglers on their lots to satisfy demand. Even if serious off-roaders don't comprise enough of the market share, the soft-roaders and mall-crawlers who want a removable roof and doors (which likely are a much bigger slice of the pie) should not be overlooked by bean counters.
Sure, a newly engineered unibody IFS Wrangler might attract new market share, but honestly I think enough current Wrangler customers/fans/enthusiasts would be turned off that the increased sales wouldn't offset all the R&D and retooling.
Jeep currently markets six SUV models: Renegade; Patriot; Compass; Wrangler; Cherokee; and Grand Cherokee. They neutered the Cherokee and although totally empirical as far as evidence goes, I don't see many of them (the new ones) on the roads. I have yet to see a new Renegade in a dealer lot or on the road.
They've flooded their own product line with uninteresting unibody, cute-'ute soft-roaders. Anyone seriously avoiding the Wrangler because they feel it needs unibody and/or IFS already has lots of other Jeep options - so Jeep would likely end up poaching their own sales of other models.
Crap, I've never understood why they have the Patriot and Compass models...
But for the OP who indicated they'll trade their '03 and buy a '16 - well, you've just proven killing the current off-road capable generation of Wrangler will guarantee a spike in sales in the last year. The salesman I mentioned in para 2 above was using the looming demise of the Wrangler to try to urge us into a quick sale...hasn't worked on us yet...:bop:
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