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Old 05-03-2013, 11:42 AM   #121
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Thanks this helps! Had mine in recently and ended up being a stabilizing bar but no real problems. Had it bad in my earlier Jeeps
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:09 PM   #122
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How can they blame the road and imprefections in the road if they advertise this vehical can go OFF road onto rugged terrian?

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:53 AM   #123
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What caused the DW in mine (I have an '06 unlimited) was the trackbar. The bushings were bad. I bought the Jeep in December, and I got the DW fixed back in January, I haven't had any problems since, thank God.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:55 AM   #124
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The first video is what happened to me going about 60, I was merging onto the highway, I slowly applied the brakes and it went back to normal. It wasn't as scary as the video looks. . . but it was pretty darn shaky in there. Like a really, really, really badly paved road.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:01 PM   #125
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Check here for a place to get the Front end Bolt Upgrade Kit.

Checkout Ebay Item # 171040320692.

Only $ 50.00 + Shipping Appears to be Best Price available.
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:36 PM   #126
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I had the Death wobble twice last month , found I had the right front tire only had 8 lbs of air in it and the tire did not look low, adding air fixed the problem
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Old 06-27-2014, 02:09 PM   #127
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After lifting my 2103 Wrangler and adding 35" tires, mine started to wobble almost without notice and sometimes took a while to control. Took it back to the performance shop and they replaced my steering stablizer under warrantly cause it was leaking. Haven't had a problem since. I saw a later model JK on the interstate this week and it seemed to start with one wheel and the whole thing just about fell apart in the middle lane of the interstate. He made it to the edge safely.
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:34 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bexarhunter View Post
After lifting my 2103 Wrangler and adding 35" tires, mine started to wobble almost without notice and sometimes took a while to control. Took it back to the performance shop and they replaced my steering stablizer under warrantly cause it was leaking. Haven't had a problem since. I saw a later model JK on the interstate this week and it seemed to start with one wheel and the whole thing just about fell apart in the middle lane of the interstate. He made it to the edge safely.
I hate to break it to you man but that stabilizer is just masking the problem. You need to find the root cause.
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Old 03-16-2015, 04:36 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bexarhunter View Post
After lifting my 2103 Wrangler and adding 35" tires, mine started to wobble almost without notice and sometimes took a while to control. Took it back to the performance shop and they replaced my steering stablizer under warrantly cause it was leaking. Haven't had a problem since. I saw a later model JK on the interstate this week and it seemed to start with one wheel and the whole thing just about fell apart in the middle lane of the interstate. He made it to the edge safely.
I hate to break it to you man but that stabilizer is just masking the problem. You need to find the root cause.

Never mind, I just noticed you are driving a model from the future and its probably been fixed by then. I heard that the 2101's and 02's had bad motivators. have they been fixed yet?
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Old 03-17-2015, 11:19 AM   #130
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Just test drove one. Guy said it was the lift kit and tires. I walked away. Scary!! Were only going 20 mph!!!
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Old 03-18-2015, 08:55 AM   #131
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Scaarryy!!
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Old 06-10-2015, 05:45 PM   #132
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Can DW cause catastrophic damage to the car on its own? Or is it "only" dangerous because you can lose control of the thing and run into stuff?
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Old 06-10-2015, 05:59 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Kwan_Doh View Post
Can DW cause catastrophic damage to the car on its own? Or is it "only" dangerous because you can lose control of the thing and run into stuff?
DW can cause premature wear or damage to any of your steering or suspension parts.

If the same vehicle experienced multiple instances of DW over a period of time, then the resultant damage could eventually be "catastrophic," in that would start breaking.
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Old 06-10-2015, 06:08 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Darth_Kwan_Doh View Post
Can DW cause catastrophic damage to the car on its own? Or is it "only" dangerous because you can lose control of the thing and run into stuff?
It is unlikely to immediately damage new parts, but it is pretty violent and could easily be the "final straw" that separates a bad hub, pulls a loose TRE off, or cracks loose a rusted steering box/trackbar mount. Any of those could be pretty catastrophic at speed...
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Old 07-13-2015, 03:39 PM   #135
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In reading this thread from the beginning, it is a little disheartening to think of all the nice Jeeps people sold or traded in because they were afraid of them. All for an issue that can be solved. To be blunt, I never heard of DW until I got back into Jeeps last year, and then it seemed as if the issue was limited to Jeeps. Possibly because the Jeep community is more involved with their vehicles, but definitely any vehicle with coil springs and a solid axle is subject to this.

I think some may also have miss understood what DW really is, but they have heard the term and they encounter vibration from an out of balance tire and ergo - DW.

For anyone who has gotten this far and has not dumped their Jeep for pennies on the dollar to get away from it - other makes encounter it too, and it is not terminal to the Jeep. Frame rust is a bigger threat than DW, but make no mistake DW can be and must be fixed. It is not a design flaw, it is a maintenance problem.

There are a lot of moving parts under the front of our beloved Jeep that looks very complex compared to the earlier CJs and YJs with leaf springs. But it is a better suspension. I remember the first time I saw it under a Dodge 2500 4X4 I bought new and it looked confusing to me and it was not until I watched some of these videos that I fully understood the system. I mean the CJs and YJs didn't have control arms, what do they do? Who ever heard of a track bar? Certainly not on a CJ or YJ. But upset the hard fixed u-bolt connection between a CJ/YJ solid axle and the leaf springs and it can have DW as well.

If you catch the problem early, you are only replacing bushings and maybe ball joints but let it go on long enough it can damage major components. The first YT video is about an F250 and caster. I like the analogy the video uses of the vibrating front wheel of a WalMart shopping cart for we have all experienced or seen on that goes down the isle with the front wheel vibrating back and forth. It is caused by caster.

The second video is of a Dodge 2500 (Hemi) which has basically the same front suspension design as does the F250 and our Jeep (both the trucks are heavier of course). The Dodge has almost 200,000 miles on it and during the inspection every bushing and ball joint is about shot. In fact when he wiggles the track bar, a part falls down.

The last link is to an in depth explanation of what is and is not DW, and had an excellent diagram and a two part video of the inspection and diagnosis of the front end problems of a Jeep.

Lastly, if you are not going to fix the issue your self, I would not recommend the typical auto repair shop and maybe not even most dealers. I would instead take it to a good tire shop. Tires and our front end suspensions are related. If the shop does a good amount of commercial work, that is even better for they get to see a lot of high mileage vehicles. I had my tires rotated last year and aligned, and they caught an early caster problem on my stock Rubicon with 117,000 miles.

Here are the links:




Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:08 AM   #136
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This is funny seeing this post.

My 88 YJ used to get the death wobbles at around 50 mph.

I had 33x12.50 mud tires on it that were worn out and probably out of balance.

I went back to 31x10.50's and it went away.

I have not replaced the shocks or steering damper in years.

All that stuff needs to be replaced but I haven't gotten to it yet.
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:23 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macr0w View Post
This is funny seeing this post.

My 88 YJ used to get the death wobbles at around 50 mph.

I had 33x12.50 mud tires on it that were worn out and probably out of balance.

I went back to 31x10.50's and it went away.

I have not replaced the shocks or steering damper in years.

All that stuff needs to be replaced but I haven't gotten to it yet.
The Jeeps from the MB through the YJ all had front leaf springs which kept the axle from shifting from side to side. The primary cause of the Death Wobble in later Jeeps is the track bar which keeps the front axle in position getting bent, loose or excessively worn. Then at certain speeds it builds up a harmonic which increases in severity. The only way to stop it when it happens is to stop the vehicle.

Other vibrations such as tires out of balance or out of round can give severe vibrations but they have a speed at which they occur. Slowing back down or speeding up will stop them.

One poster talked of Death Wobble in a new GMC pickup years ago that had a straight axle and leaf springs. When he took it into a dealer, the factory had never installed the U-bolts holding the axle to the springs so it could move freely from side to side.

Death wobble is extremely rare in a vehicle with leaf springs and usually is found in a vehicle that has bolts and other parts broken and/or missing. I never heard of it in a Jeep until the TJ.
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:18 PM   #138
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Got it yesterday going 65 on a bumpy highway curve, Felt like blow out on front driver and rear passenger side at the same time and didn't stop till I stopped completely. At the time I was on my way to get tires. Picked it up from PO last week, He had 2 decent (30%tread) on drivers side and 2 shot (0% tread) on passenger side. I'm hoping that was the catalyst. But I found a sticky on DW last week but cannot find it now. Haven't has the chance to get under it yet but this is primarily for my son so I have to get it done. I was (am) nervous about him driving a lifted jeep, but Him and his bro grew up with ATV's and dirtbikes so he understands the physics, but not letting him on the highway till I figure it out. If some one can point me to the sticky that would be great. I don't want to start a new thread on such a beaten topic. Thanks.
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Old 05-28-2016, 03:02 PM   #139
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Found it.
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Old 08-15-2016, 02:37 PM   #140
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Oi. Soooo much disinformation about 'the dreaded death wobble'. School is now in, class....

First off, we can all agree that DW is the unwanted oscillation of the front tires to left and right in relation of the vehicle, yes? This translate to the steering wheel shaking and threatening the control of the vehicle. While it is certainly true that solid axles by their design of being essentially one component between the two front wheels, this can happen on any vehicle.

But what can cause DW? What blows me away, every damned time, is how many people do not start where the vehicle meets the road ---

Tires.

Tires.


TIRES.

Now. This does not mean that, when a person has a DW issue, one starts and then stops with the tires. With any complaint involving suspension, the *ENTIRE* suspension is to be inspected for fault. That being said... there are some components that, while they are to be checked for safety's sake, can be ruled out as sources of DW; and that replacement of such components will only mask DW - for the time it takes for the replaced components to wear out again.

I have a couple of examples to illustrate this. Firstly, on JKUs - I ran the stock BFGs until they were fried, not once did I see a DW. I put a set of MudHogs on, which while very slightly smaller are load range E -and the Jeep is more stable now, with the heavier ply tire, than it ever has been, and the Jeep runs with an extra 300 pounds on it courtesy of my cargo rack and tool box.

This leads me to my second, more telling example - the Dodge 2500/3500. In my time at a certain dealership, we ran into a mass wave of literally dozens of brand spanking new trucks, 2500 and 3500 single rear wheels, being sold to customers and coming back instantly with DW. It took me only four hours to actually isolate the problem - but a week to convince management. These are brand new trucks keep in mind, most of them hadn't hit 500 miles yet - I had to go through everything, tie rods, steering damper, track bar, shocks, ball joints, prove every single one of them was at spec, and then through a lengthy fiasco I proved what the problem was. I randomly picked a truck off the new line, made my shop foreman, dealership owner, AND the owner of the tire shop from which we had been buying tires from go for a ride with me over a conveniently placed set of rail tracks, then made them stand in my bay, watch me do the complete vehicle inspection, demonstrate the validity of the entire truck, mount on the tires being supplied by the tire chain including them watching me balance all four tires, mount and torque them, go for another drive - and have them scream as i nearly plowed off the road when the DW reared.

The end fault? The tires being provided were Load Range D, when the trucks were specifically calling for Load Range E tires. The tire side walls were simply not stiff enough to prevent the DW. I could hear the screaming match in the dealer owners office from downstairs. End result? Welp, a lot of tires suddenly came back, a lot of new Load Range E tires were put on, and customers were, er, mollified somewhat. Now, what causes this you might ask? Well, think of what a tire is doing each time it rotates. It has, at any given time in the case of a Ram, a quarter or more of the truck's weight pushing down on it, with the road kicking it basically up and down and occasionally sideways. It has to combat this with its construction and its pressure - with Load range E tires, the tires are set around 70PSI for the front so they are kept in a near round form. With Load range D, they are kept at 65 or lower PSI, and coupled with the softer sidewall, they are flexing a LOT more - sort of like opening and closing your hand. That flex is not dampened down by the tire's own capability and winds up being translated into the truck; that energy being created by movement has to go somewhere and of course a paved road is not going to take any of it.

Now, coming back to the Jeeps, this is not to say that 'everyone should buy D or E range tires for a vehicle calling for C range'. This is to point out that the ultimate source of any death wobble is a pair of rubber and metal masses rotating at any number of hundreds of RPM being allowed to start oscillation. With this being the case, ensuring the tires are of good quality, good condition, and of good balance - as well as the rims - should always be considered step one of the process of killing DW. As I said, I ran the stocker BFGoodrich to the wear bars, not once had an issue - and I do have a leaking steering damper I haven't bothered to fix yet. The new MudHogs, I got because I got a reasonable price for agressive mud tires, but were only available in LR E, so they are proving to me that a stiffer tire wall does help dampen issues with the rather lightly built suspension overall. Further, especially with us Jeepers - oversize tires, especially soft tires, are begging for DW to begin. More rotating mass = more apt to DW.

Now that Ive beat the tire issue to death, let's move on to what can and can not cause DW, but still must be inspected from a vehicle safety standpoint. Well, next thing from a suspension standpoint is ball joints; they are the next component in -- and In my time pulling wrench, both for Mopar and in the general field, Ive never seen ball joints cause a DW. Not once. Now, they caused tires to wear out bad, misalignment issues etc - but not the DW. Are they a component needing inspection for safety sake? Hell yes. But, a DW source? Not in my experience.

Next in, let's adress the tie rods. Now, I have seen a singular bad tie rod cause a tire shimmy - when the tie rod was about to fall out; its play was so bad. Note that when I say play, I am not saying vertical play; I am saying Lateral play - left to right. Up and down play, unless its enough for the tie rod to part itself, won't affect where the wheels sit to one another in a measurable sense. That said, again - from a safety standpoint, while there may be no spec for vert play, excessive is means to call for replacement.

Next in, attached to the tie rods is our diminutive steering damper. This thing tends to not get the respect due, as so many solid axles of the past never had the thing on from factory. As I noted, mine is puking its guts out; still havent done it. What the damper does, for those not yet following, is dampen the impulses from the wheels into the steering gear and up to the driver. Hitting rocks potholes etc, the damper's job is to slow down and stop the oscillation caused by such road hazards. Which brings the question - will a damper cause DW? No, but it will ALLOW DW if its weak or dead. The damper really is the front line soldier fighting against the noise of the tires. The weaker it gets, the more the driver feels. This is why we see so many upgrade kits to strengthen or add multiples of the damper to the system. For Jeeps, unless one is trying to race or has massively oversized tires, one quality damper should be sufficient; assuming the rest of the system is in good repair.

Next up, track bar. This component, as previously noted, holds the axle in relation to the vehicle. As such, if it can move left or right,the alignment is out the window and the control goes wonky. But, is it a cause of DW? No, but its failure will be exacerbated by DW, that is to say DW will make the failing of the track bar much more noticeable. Conversely, a new track bar may 'cover' a weaker level DW - for the time it takes for the new bar to die again. If the track bar is shot, its worth looking at why.

Next in, steering gearbox. If this is wore, we will see steering wheel wander; most of us have felt a sloppy wheel before. But, will it, by itself, cause DW? Death Wobble, no. Death WANDER, yes. It too is also another line of defense from the road noise; the shudder vibration shaking movement etc that translates up from the wheels through the tie rods will tear the guts out of these small units over time if the rest is not kept in good repair. Now, Dodge/Jeep gearboxes are notorious (more so the trucks) for going out of adjustment, leaking and eventually quitting - that's due to the high stress job these units get. While as I aid they can be adjusted; usually the adjustments do not last long in my experience and just covers up the wear internally.

That covers the steering side, now let's talk about the suspension side, starting with Shocks. Like the Damper, the Shocks eat up and dampen the noise from the road into the vehicle. Will these themselves cause death wobble? Not exactly, but their failure will cause a very similar complaint - instead of the tires oscillating excessively left and right, they'll oscillate excessively up and down. Think of the washboard road - bad shocks will mean the tires leave the road more.

Next, let's talk about the control arm bushings. On stock rides, these usually last the life of the Jeep, and usually get done once in the life of a Ram. On lifted kits? Damn these things seem to die fast. Just about every other lifted unit i see - Jeep or Ram - these bushings are loose, pounded, noisy, and letting the front axle wander all over the place. But, will they cause DW? no, but like the track bar, they will exacerbate the problem. They will also get their arses kicked if a DW is present; being unable to keep the axle where its supposed to be.

Next, Coil springs. Generally, coils dont care about DW, and wont be a cause of it either - however, saggy springs - such as stock JK springs that now have to deal with a winch and bumper - will allow bottoming out.

Now that we have covered all that, let's talk Alignment. On a solid axle; there really is not much we can do with them - set the toe, possibly adjust castor slightly, and thats it. We cannot adjust camber without installing wear/failure-prone camber adjusting ball joints; and if the camber is out on a solid axle that usually means the axle itself is bent. Castor, well it doesn't really make a damned bit of difference, not with how little it can be changed. Toe; well if its in a crazy amount, like an inch or more, then yes the tires will 'flutter' and go into DW - but the amount it needs to be out is ridiculous and easily spotted even by someone who doesn't wrench for a living. This all said - Alignment cannot be properly set until ALL suspension AND tire components are at spec - all four tires have to match in size, wear, and their pressures set to factory spec, all components must be in proper good operating condition, preferably with a full tank of fuel and the normal load for whatever the Jeep will normally be doing (IE, regular driver and passengers in their positions in the vehicle) while alignment is set. Again though, with a solid axle, not a great deal that can be done assuming quality parts are installed correctly; aside of toe.

Finally, sway bars/links/bushings. That vid of that country mechanic blathering on about sway bars causing DW? Can we say 'upsell', class? Sway bars do not have any say in the steering wheels turning left and right; they act only when the vehicle tries to lean one side or another in relation to the axle on the road. Now, DW will beat the crap out of sway components just like the rest of the suspension; but their condition is relatively immaterial to DW. It factors in control yes, but specifically DW, nope.

While we are on the topic of upsell -- Speaking from my experience with Ma Mopar, Jeeps (and much worse so, Rams) have a tolerance of play for components like ball joints etc. A measurable amount of play is permitted; i forget the numbers off the top. However, at Mopar we had to demonstrate that the ball joints exceeded a certain value before we could call them as failed - that is straight from the factory and their engineers. They know these things are going to develop play and are safe to do so, to a point. Tie rods, while permitting vert play, are yanked the second any lateral play is found. Also, torn boots - a torn boot in and of itself *if the component has not yet developed play* is not going to cause a play, but it is going to permit exacerbated wear of whatever component its on. Itll allow water dirt etc in, itll wear out prematurely and fail prematurely. If your shop is saying 'oh your ball joints have play and have to be replaced' ask them how much play in relation to what factory calls for; see how they respond. If they squirm, you've likely caught them in an unneeded upsell; if they come back with hard numbers its pretty safe to say you can trust them.

Buuut anyway that's my rant on this topic for now. Hopefully; itll prove to be of some help for people having DW. TL: DR; if you have DW, start with the tires but check the entire front end out, or have a COMPETENT shop do so for you.

Edit... stupid bloody smily face...

Edit two - steel and metal? bloody hells..
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Old 08-16-2016, 11:18 AM   #141
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Gee, I drove three successive Ram 2500s, usually with tires at least one size over stock and usually load range D but with no lifting at all. Then to boot when empty I usually ran 40 in the front and 35 in the rear to save my spine. I put about 60K miles on each, usually enough to replace the tires once (after replacing them almost immediately).

According to your scenario, I should have been plagued by DW on each one. (Well maybe not the first one a 2000 MY RWD). However, I never ever experienced DW. On the last one, at 65K I sold it to a friend who has put another 60K+ on it. I did replace the tires with LR E tires a year before I sold it to him, and he has recently replaced the tires and most of the front suspension components because they were getting worn.

Never had any instance of DW on any of those, nor has my friend experienced it either.

I am not saying tires might not be the cause, just that from what most on this forum post, the primary cause is the track bar, either the bushings are shot or one of the bolts has loosened.

Now if you are running large tires on a lifted vehicle and running a light load range and under inflated, then I can see the tires giving into the harmonic that we call DW.
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Old 11-17-2016, 05:12 PM   #142
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This happened to my 98 grand Cherokee after a 4 inch lift.
Could not find a cure for it.

I'm wondering if the lifetime warranty I purchased from the dealer would cover this in the future if I decided to lift it...
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:14 PM   #143
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These videos make my stomach drop

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