Need Help with court - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Jeep Discussions > General Jeep Discussion

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 06-18-2010, 03:29 PM   #1
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
Need Help with court

Got my first Jeep related ticket today

He pulled me over for having my windshield down and secure. However the guy was really nice and actually encouraged me to fight it in court since "my argument had just as much force as his"

So I already have the pa laws regarding review mirrors and I win that part. and I know I'll win the part about the windshield I just need some help getting the law documentation.

My argument is more or less: The vehicle was origionaly (and is still) designed to be able to fold the windshield down. Also according to PA law motorcyclists are required to have a windshield as well and they aren't required to wear helmets. Now I can bring up over 50 street legal motorcycles that DO NOT have a whidshield.

And to help my case I was wearing DOT approved safety sunglasses.

To top it off there is no reference of a law on the ticket and the description on the notes says and I quote, "Operated Jeep on highway w/ safety glass (windshield) secured to hood." Now according to that my windshield is secured to my hood but it does not describe where it is secured or that it was folded down. I doubt that that would do anything in court but its still there.

Also the ticket has a HUGE faded VOID written across it... so I'm confused

Help me stick it to the man guys I'm not paying a $109 ticket for something this stupid

__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:36 PM   #2
Jeeper
 
drivebytruckerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,011
Show up at your court date.. you know what happens if you lose? You pay $109.00.. which you would have to do anyway.

__________________
"Not all who wander are lost.."

2000 TJ Sport 4.0
2005 WK (Grand Cherokee) Limited 5.7 HEMI


(OIF '05-'06 Mahmudiyah, Scania)
drivebytruckerz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:38 PM   #3
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
I plan on showing up, but that doesn't help me argue the case
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:39 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
drivebytruckerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,011
Your argument was sound already.. just state what happened. Also.. bring the safety glasses you were wearing with you to court, as well as pictures of your jeep with window up and down printed out. The part about the motorcycles is a great argument.
__________________
"Not all who wander are lost.."

2000 TJ Sport 4.0
2005 WK (Grand Cherokee) Limited 5.7 HEMI


(OIF '05-'06 Mahmudiyah, Scania)
drivebytruckerz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:41 PM   #5
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivebytruckerz View Post
Also.. bring the safety glasses you were wearing with you to court, as well as pictures of your jeep with window up and down printed out. The part about the motorcycles is a great argument.
Now thats what I'm looking for I wouldn't have thought to bring pictures inside I would have just brought my Jeep
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:43 PM   #6
Jeeper
 
cheli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 66
Images: 2
Sometimes its cheaper to pay the fine, if you go to court, there is a chance they will end adding court cost and such on top of the initial fine, unless you feel you were in the right.
__________________
Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything
cheli is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:50 PM   #7
The Bad Guy

WF Supporting Member
 
daggo66's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NJ exile living in Baltimore
Posts: 22,427
If he thought you had a sound argument, why he he issue a summons? Personally I think it was pretty dumb to drive on the road with the windshield down. Off road yes, but not on.
__________________
Tom

"I've got two things in this world, my balls and my word and I don't break them for no one."
daggo66 is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:54 PM   #8
Jeeper
 
drivebytruckerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,011
He should have given you a warning. He was probably meeting a quota.
__________________
"Not all who wander are lost.."

2000 TJ Sport 4.0
2005 WK (Grand Cherokee) Limited 5.7 HEMI


(OIF '05-'06 Mahmudiyah, Scania)
drivebytruckerz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 03:59 PM   #9
Jeeper
 
Twitch Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 54
IANAL, but I'd say go to court.

First off, if the cop doesn't show up, you walk, and a lot of times they have better things to do with their time than sit in court and haggle over a ticket.

Overall, it sounds to me like he was unsure of the situation and decided to write the ticket just to keep up appearances for his superiors - possibly a new guy trying to do things by the book to look good. If this is the case and he didn't really care about the issue, he might just no-show or concede the ticket once he sees your evidence.

This is what the court system is for - to interpret stuff like this.
Twitch Boy is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 04:00 PM   #10
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,612
Vaultzz:
I do NOT think your motorcycle argument is all that compelling. If you are correct, then it just means they need to start arresting motorcyclists, not let you off the hook. It's a little bit like saying "but all the other kids jump off the bridge...."

Also, unfortunately, I believe that Jeep has said for years that the windshield should not be folded down when the vehicle is on a public road. So the vehicle design argument may not work all that well either.

The "fine print" argument about how the ticket is written and the way it's printed may be tough to argue as well. Judges get really ticked off about people trying to use small details as a way to avoid the ticket.

How big is the city/county? In my experience, if it's a bigger location, they will plea-bargain you out to something really quickly, mostly to save time. I've had speeding tickets reduced to "unsafe equipment," (no points, about 1/3 the fine) just because the cop wrote "polite guy" on the ticket. And to keep me from going before the judge and wasting time.

Good Luck
Geoff@Bestop is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 04:05 PM   #11
Jeeper
 
JIMBOX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,914
Heh Heh, if I was the judge, I'd just hang ya !!

JIMBO
__________________
"ya gotta have class"
JIMBOX is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 04:41 PM   #12
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop View Post
Vaultzz:
1. I do NOT think your motorcycle argument is all that compelling. If you are correct, then it just means they need to start arresting motorcyclists, not let you off the hook. It's a little bit like saying "but all the other kids jump off the bridge...."

2. Also, unfortunately, I believe that Jeep has said for years that the windshield should not be folded down when the vehicle is on a public road. So the vehicle design argument may not work all that well either.

3. The "fine print" argument about how the ticket is written and the way it's printed may be tough to argue as well. Judges get really ticked off about people trying to use small details as a way to avoid the ticket.

4. How big is the city/county? In my experience, if it's a bigger location, they will plea-bargain you out to something really quickly, mostly to save time. I've had speeding tickets reduced to "unsafe equipment," (no points, about 1/3 the fine) just because the cop wrote "polite guy" on the ticket. And to keep me from going before the judge and wasting time.

Good Luck
1. I believe the motorcycle argument is solid. Why should one privately owned street legal vehicle be allowed to ignore a state law and another should be forced to follow it? Thats discrimination.

2. I've been through all the PA state laws regarding vehicles, even if Chrysler advised to not use the vehicle on road with the windshield folded theres no law prohibiting it

3. Small details aside, the ticked has a huge faded VOID written on it

4. I'm not sure how big the county is I'll have to find out
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 04:50 PM   #13
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaultzz View Post
1. I believe the motorcycle argument is solid. Why should one privately owned street legal vehicle be allowed to ignore a state law and another should be forced to follow it? Thats discrimination.
The best that argument will get you is a pat on the back and a chance to appeal. Local courts do not make decisions on the validity or constitutionality of a law. They just say "that's the law, you broke it." Appeals courts make decisions on validity of laws.

Quote:
2. I've been through all the PA state laws regarding vehicles, even if Chrysler advised to not use the vehicle on road with the windshield folded theres no law prohibiting it
That's a good argument. But there may be an over-riding "unsafe vehicle" regulation that the officer is using. In other words, there's no specific law saying I can't drive with a milk crate instead of a seat. But it's an unsafe vehicle violation, and everyone knows it.

Quote:
3. Small details aside, the ticked has a huge faded VOID written on it
I can't answer that at all. I'd just be surprised to find an office who made a mistake like that. And I can't imagine why anyone would have "voided" ticket books. I'm thinking there's a reason for it, and it ain't "get out of jail free."

Hey - I'm not trying to talk you out of fighting this. I think everyone should fight tickets, just to see how the system works. Just to exercise your rights. Just for the civics lesson.

Just trying to be a devil's advocate, and make your arguments better.
Geoff@Bestop is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 04:52 PM   #14
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop View Post
Hey - I'm not trying to talk you out of fighting this. I think everyone should fight tickets, just to see how the system works. Just to exercise your rights. Just for the civics lesson.

Just trying to be a devil's advocate, and make your arguments better.
Completely understandable
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 05:18 PM   #15
Jeeper
 
medic2936's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
Posts: 37
Images: 4
Just a small thought I had. If you do take it to court and you take the safety glasses remember to bring some type of documentation to prove they are DOT approved safety glasses. It might help.
__________________
Whenever the pressure of our complex city life thins my blood and numbs my brain, I seek relief in the trail; and when I hear the coyote wailing to the yellow dawn, my cares fall from me - I am happy
Hamblin Garland
medic2936 is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 05:26 PM   #16
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
I actually have the documentation in my glove box, but he cop didn't ask for it
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 05:38 PM   #17
Jeeper
 
birdhunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,495
I have heard of people in your state
getting tickets for going doorless.
Something about orig safety equipment
They could spin that as the windshield
being down also
By your reasoning motorcycles would
need seatbelts???
__________________

"locked and loaded"
birdhunter is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 06:05 PM   #18
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
The void is most likely so the ticket cannot be scanned and changed.
tiny terror is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 06:13 PM   #19
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: VA
Posts: 93
next time just wear a full racing helmet, tear off's, and a mouth guard. i would love to those pigs try to give you a ticket in that get up


O and take a picture and put it on WF
__________________
sippin' my 4loko in 4 'Lo ...
domeshots is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 06:49 PM   #20
Jeeper
 
GroundHawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: northeast ohio
Posts: 2,274
I don't think you did anything wrong. I hate laws like this. Like we actually need the state to protect us from ourselves. Vault did nothing wrong. That's not going to hurt anyone. He even took an extra precaution to wear safety glasses.

PA is seriously a bunch of street Nazis. No lie, I'd tell them to shove that ticket up their a**.

No don't. I did that with a wheelin' ticket...actually it was criminal trespassing and destruction of property. I went to court, I wanted to fight it saying I was singled out for using a Jeep, but little quads and bikes run the trail, as do hikers. They don't get tickets. But I do? WTF? Apparently the cop said I was rude and hostile, whatever that means. I called BS and was upset and swearing at the cops, but I wasn't hostile.

In a nutshell, I didn't even get to talk he did knock off my destruction citation and I paid $100 for trespassing. Between that and skateboarding back in the day, I've gotten around 6 or 7 of those tickets.

It's wrong IMO, but I think you're f'ed.

Don't feel bad though. PA's going to nail me for no mirrors sooner or later
GroundHawg is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 06:54 PM   #21
Jeeper

WF Supporting Member
 
N39-W120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: South Eastern VA
Posts: 2,020
Send a message via AIM to N39-W120 Send a message via Skype™ to N39-W120
I think you may be screwed if you take it to court.... PA Vehicle code:

4526. Safety glass.
(a) Safety glass required
.--It is unlawful to sell or to operate on any highway in this Commonwealth any vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1934, and registered in this Commonwealth unless the vehicle is equipped with safety glass or similar material, which is in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department, wherever transparent or translucent material is used in the vehicle in doors, windows, windshields and wings.

If you have a clean record your best chance is to take a copy of that, present it to the Judge, apologize for your indescression and beg for a "probation" peroid.
__________________
Daily Driver 2010 Ford Fusion
Weekend Toy: 2008 Rubicon...
Expensive Toy: 1983 Cadillac Coupe DeVille

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!
N39-W120 is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 07:00 PM   #22
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by N39-W120 View Post
I think you may be screwed if you take it to court.... PA Vehicle code:

4526. Safety glass.
(a) Safety glass required
.--It is unlawful to sell or to operate on any highway in this Commonwealth any vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1934, and registered in this Commonwealth unless the vehicle is equipped with safety glass or similar material, which is in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department, wherever transparent or translucent material is used in the vehicle in doors, windows, windshields and wings.

If you have a clean record your best chance is to take a copy of that, present it to the Judge, apologize for your indescression and beg for a "probation" peroid.
Thats exactly what I just talked to the cop about (I got the ticket nulled btw )

He told me that "in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department" refers to § 175.80. Inspection procedure. section F

Quote:
(2) Check glazing.

(i) Reject if any of the following apply:

(A) Approved safety glazing is not used in every windshield, window and wing.

(B) A sign, poster or other material whose design prevents a driver from seeing through the material, obstructs, obscures or impairs the driver’s clear view of the highway or an intersecting highway. Under FMVSS No. 205, this restriction does not apply to the rear side windows, rear wings or rear window of trucks or multi-purpose passenger vehicles.

(C) A sign, poster or other material, whose design prevents a driver from seeing through the material, extends more than 3 1/2 inches from the lowest exposed portion of the rear window, rear side windows or rear wings of a passenger car.

(D) A vehicle displays a sticker other than those prescribed under § 175.67(c) (relating to glazing), or displays a parking sticker in a location described in § 175.67(d).

(E) Glass is shattered or broken or has exposed sharp edges.

(F) The windshield is removed.
Now the windshield wasn't removed, it was simply folded. I believe that I could fight this is court if necessary, and I do plan to get legal authority to fold my windshield
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 07:53 PM   #23
Jeeper
 
GroundHawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: northeast ohio
Posts: 2,274
You should be allowed. The windshield by design, stock, no modification, can fold down. It's not like a Pirate Ship Jeep Waggy with the roof and doors sawed off.

Laws suck
GroundHawg is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 08:04 PM   #24
Jeeper
 
Pontiackid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: downingtown pa
Posts: 661
In pa it is illegal to have your windshield folded down. its a screwed up rule but they do strictley enforce it. reason for it being is say your behind some tractor trailer and it kicks up a rock at you. they'll come at you with the speed of a bullett and if you get knocked unconciusis (spelling) you could lose control of your jeep and cause some more damage. The sad part is there more worried about you damageing property rather than hurting yourself but yes it is illegal. and street bikes do have a windshield's but the law for a street bike it it dosent have to be clear it just has to be there to protect your instrumentation's on the bike.. take it to court and state you dident know it was illegal to have your windshield down but to answer your question on the road it is illegal.
__________________
2000 wrangler
06 Pontiac solstice
84 IMSA fiero
2002 300M special
Pontiackid87 is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 08:08 PM   #25
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
They say its illegal, following state laws theres nothing saying that I can't and If you want I'll post up numerous pictures and links to street bikes that have no windshields and if a rock came at the windshield at the speed of a bullet then theres no way in hell that its going to stop at the windshield, th rock would still hit me anyways
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 09:14 PM   #26
Jeeper
 
RatherBNarizona's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 12,284
Not trying to be the bad guy, but I know here the cop does NOT need to be present in court. Most do because they get overtime pay for it. Not sure about your state, have to check.
RatherBNarizona is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 09:26 PM   #27
Jeeper
 
Pontiackid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: downingtown pa
Posts: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaultzz View Post
They say its illegal, following state laws theres nothing saying that I can't and If you want I'll post up numerous pictures and links to street bikes that have no windshields and if a rock came at the windshield at the speed of a bullet then theres no way in hell that its going to stop at the windshield, th rock would still hit me anyways

Well maby not as fast as a bullett but they can still shoot up pretty fast and if its a big enough one it can knock someone out if it hits ya right. I cant really speek on street bikes because i never really got into motorcycle inspection but bikes are able to get away with a lot more than a car can. From what i understand they need to have some kind of cowel on the front of the street bike to protect the instermentation there windshield is not really there for protection of the rider this is why whenever your on a bike you need to have some kind of sunglasses on. Im not a licenced inspection mechanic in PA but i have study'ed PA inspection throughley and know most of the in's and outs of it... the its a stupied rule but for any motor vehical on the road it has to have some kind windshield this is why when in PA if your in an accident if your windshield is damaged 9 times out of 10 they wont let you drive the vehical away even if it is driveable. Rule of thumb for windshield cracks and inspection is if your windshield wipers pass over the crack it fails inspection. Im not tryin to be an a$4hole here im just trying to tell you before you go into court that having your windshield down on a public roadway at least in PA is illegal lol hell if i wanted to i could get my inspection licence but by law im not allowed to inspect my own cars and i dont want to be a mechanic for a living so theres no point in getting it
__________________
2000 wrangler
06 Pontiac solstice
84 IMSA fiero
2002 300M special
Pontiackid87 is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 09:28 PM   #28
Jeeper
 
Pontiackid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: downingtown pa
Posts: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherBNmexico View Post
Not trying to be the bad guy, but I know here the cop does NOT need to be present in court. Most do because they get overtime pay for it. Not sure about your state, have to check.
PA all county's except for philly's Traffic court (1st hearing only) the arresting officer has to be present at the hearing. PA's law is and for some reason philly dosent apply to this. You have the right to face your accuser in court in this case the officer.
__________________
2000 wrangler
06 Pontiac solstice
84 IMSA fiero
2002 300M special
Pontiackid87 is offline   Quote
Old 06-18-2010, 09:29 PM   #29
Aka Vaultzz

WF Supporting Member
 
Vaultzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: My Secret Lab
Posts: 5,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaultzz View Post
(I got the ticket nulled btw )
Just to clarify I'm still going to go talk to someone more powerful at a state police station and present my case and get a final answer before I start my appeal
__________________
The YJ is in Rebuild Mode
Vaultzz is offline   Quote
Old 06-19-2010, 12:33 AM   #30
Jeeper
 
Ageless Stranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 26,814
Glad they tore it up Vaultzz.

Ageless Stranger is offline   Quote
Reply

Tags
tickets

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
do you think you could? tiny terror Off-Topic 16724 04-21-2013 02:02 PM
the supreme court deserves a round of applause rebelBullDawg325 Off-Topic 19 06-30-2008 09:14 PM
Disorder in the Court ccain Off-Topic 2 06-19-2008 04:54 PM
CA State Supreme Court 4point Off-Topic 46 05-20-2008 08:00 AM
Supreme Court gun-control case could be landmark drummerwookie Off-Topic 28 03-22-2008 08:34 PM



Download our Mobile App

» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:31 AM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2015 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC