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3K views 36 replies 22 participants last post by  sonofabeach 
#1 ·
:wavey: Got my first Jeep related ticket today :banghead:

He pulled me over for having my windshield down and secure. However the guy was really nice and actually encouraged me to fight it in court since "my argument had just as much force as his"

So I already have the pa laws regarding review mirrors and I win that part. and I know I'll win the part about the windshield I just need some help getting the law documentation.

My argument is more or less: The vehicle was origionaly (and is still) designed to be able to fold the windshield down. Also according to PA law motorcyclists are required to have a windshield as well and they aren't required to wear helmets. Now I can bring up over 50 street legal motorcycles that DO NOT have a whidshield.

And to help my case I was wearing DOT approved safety sunglasses.

To top it off there is no reference of a law on the ticket and the description on the notes says and I quote, "Operated Jeep on highway w/ safety glass (windshield) secured to hood." Now according to that my windshield is secured to my hood but it does not describe where it is secured or that it was folded down. I doubt that that would do anything in court but its still there.

Also the ticket has a HUGE faded VOID written across it... so I'm confused

Help me stick it to the man guys :) I'm not paying a $109 ticket for something this stupid
 
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#4 ·
Your argument was sound already.. just state what happened. Also.. bring the safety glasses you were wearing with you to court, as well as pictures of your jeep with window up and down printed out. The part about the motorcycles is a great argument.
 
#5 ·
Also.. bring the safety glasses you were wearing with you to court, as well as pictures of your jeep with window up and down printed out. The part about the motorcycles is a great argument.
Now thats what I'm looking for :D I wouldn't have thought to bring pictures inside I would have just brought my Jeep
 
#7 ·
If he thought you had a sound argument, why he he issue a summons? Personally I think it was pretty dumb to drive on the road with the windshield down. Off road yes, but not on.
 
#9 ·
IANAL, but I'd say go to court.

First off, if the cop doesn't show up, you walk, and a lot of times they have better things to do with their time than sit in court and haggle over a ticket.

Overall, it sounds to me like he was unsure of the situation and decided to write the ticket just to keep up appearances for his superiors - possibly a new guy trying to do things by the book to look good. If this is the case and he didn't really care about the issue, he might just no-show or concede the ticket once he sees your evidence.

This is what the court system is for - to interpret stuff like this.
 
#10 ·
Vaultzz:
I do NOT think your motorcycle argument is all that compelling. If you are correct, then it just means they need to start arresting motorcyclists, not let you off the hook. It's a little bit like saying "but all the other kids jump off the bridge...."

Also, unfortunately, I believe that Jeep has said for years that the windshield should not be folded down when the vehicle is on a public road. So the vehicle design argument may not work all that well either.

The "fine print" argument about how the ticket is written and the way it's printed may be tough to argue as well. Judges get really ticked off about people trying to use small details as a way to avoid the ticket.

How big is the city/county? In my experience, if it's a bigger location, they will plea-bargain you out to something really quickly, mostly to save time. I've had speeding tickets reduced to "unsafe equipment," (no points, about 1/3 the fine) just because the cop wrote "polite guy" on the ticket. And to keep me from going before the judge and wasting time.

Good Luck
 
#12 ·
Vaultzz:
1. I do NOT think your motorcycle argument is all that compelling. If you are correct, then it just means they need to start arresting motorcyclists, not let you off the hook. It's a little bit like saying "but all the other kids jump off the bridge...."

2. Also, unfortunately, I believe that Jeep has said for years that the windshield should not be folded down when the vehicle is on a public road. So the vehicle design argument may not work all that well either.

3. The "fine print" argument about how the ticket is written and the way it's printed may be tough to argue as well. Judges get really ticked off about people trying to use small details as a way to avoid the ticket.

4. How big is the city/county? In my experience, if it's a bigger location, they will plea-bargain you out to something really quickly, mostly to save time. I've had speeding tickets reduced to "unsafe equipment," (no points, about 1/3 the fine) just because the cop wrote "polite guy" on the ticket. And to keep me from going before the judge and wasting time.

Good Luck
1. I believe the motorcycle argument is solid. Why should one privately owned street legal vehicle be allowed to ignore a state law and another should be forced to follow it? Thats discrimination.

2. I've been through all the PA state laws regarding vehicles, even if Chrysler advised to not use the vehicle on road with the windshield folded theres no law prohibiting it

3. Small details aside, the ticked has a huge faded VOID written on it

4. I'm not sure how big the county is I'll have to find out
 
#15 ·
Just a small thought I had. If you do take it to court and you take the safety glasses remember to bring some type of documentation to prove they are DOT approved safety glasses. It might help.
 
#20 ·
I don't think you did anything wrong. I hate laws like this. Like we actually need the state to protect us from ourselves. Vault did nothing wrong. That's not going to hurt anyone. He even took an extra precaution to wear safety glasses.

PA is seriously a bunch of street Nazis. No lie, I'd tell them to shove that ticket up their a**.

No don't. I did that with a wheelin' ticket...actually it was criminal trespassing and destruction of property. I went to court, I wanted to fight it saying I was singled out for using a Jeep, but little quads and bikes run the trail, as do hikers. They don't get tickets. But I do? WTF? Apparently the cop said I was rude and hostile, whatever that means. I called BS and was upset and swearing at the cops, but I wasn't hostile.

In a nutshell, I didn't even get to talk :rofl: he did knock off my destruction citation and I paid $100 for trespassing. Between that and skateboarding back in the day, I've gotten around 6 or 7 of those tickets.

It's wrong IMO, but I think you're f'ed.

Don't feel bad though. PA's going to nail me for no mirrors sooner or later
 
#21 ·
I think you may be screwed if you take it to court.... PA Vehicle code:

4526. Safety glass.
(a) Safety glass required
.--It is unlawful to sell or to operate on any highway in this Commonwealth any vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1934, and registered in this Commonwealth unless the vehicle is equipped with safety glass or similar material, which is in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department, wherever transparent or translucent material is used in the vehicle in doors, windows, windshields and wings.

If you have a clean record your best chance is to take a copy of that, present it to the Judge, apologize for your indescression and beg for a "probation" peroid.
 
#22 ·
Thats exactly what I just talked to the cop about (I got the ticket nulled btw :D)

He told me that "in compliance with regulations promulgated by the department" refers to § 175.80. Inspection procedure. section F

(2) Check glazing.

(i) Reject if any of the following apply:

(A) Approved safety glazing is not used in every windshield, window and wing.

(B) A sign, poster or other material whose design prevents a driver from seeing through the material, obstructs, obscures or impairs the driver’s clear view of the highway or an intersecting highway. Under FMVSS No. 205, this restriction does not apply to the rear side windows, rear wings or rear window of trucks or multi-purpose passenger vehicles.

(C) A sign, poster or other material, whose design prevents a driver from seeing through the material, extends more than 3 1/2 inches from the lowest exposed portion of the rear window, rear side windows or rear wings of a passenger car.

(D) A vehicle displays a sticker other than those prescribed under § 175.67(c) (relating to glazing), or displays a parking sticker in a location described in § 175.67(d).

(E) Glass is shattered or broken or has exposed sharp edges.

(F) The windshield is removed.
Now the windshield wasn't removed, it was simply folded. I believe that I could fight this is court if necessary, and I do plan to get legal authority to fold my windshield
 
#24 ·
In pa it is illegal to have your windshield folded down. its a screwed up rule but they do strictley enforce it. reason for it being is say your behind some tractor trailer and it kicks up a rock at you. they'll come at you with the speed of a bullett and if you get knocked unconciusis (spelling) you could lose control of your jeep and cause some more damage. The sad part is there more worried about you damageing property rather than hurting yourself but yes it is illegal. and street bikes do have a windshield's but the law for a street bike it it dosent have to be clear it just has to be there to protect your instrumentation's on the bike.. take it to court and state you dident know it was illegal to have your windshield down but to answer your question on the road it is illegal.
 
#25 ·
They say its illegal, following state laws theres nothing saying that I can't and If you want I'll post up numerous pictures and links to street bikes that have no windshields and if a rock came at the windshield at the speed of a bullet then theres no way in hell that its going to stop at the windshield, th rock would still hit me anyways
 
#27 ·
Well maby not as fast as a bullett but they can still shoot up pretty fast and if its a big enough one it can knock someone out if it hits ya right. I cant really speek on street bikes because i never really got into motorcycle inspection but bikes are able to get away with a lot more than a car can. From what i understand they need to have some kind of cowel on the front of the street bike to protect the instermentation there windshield is not really there for protection of the rider this is why whenever your on a bike you need to have some kind of sunglasses on. Im not a licenced inspection mechanic in PA but i have study'ed PA inspection throughley and know most of the in's and outs of it... the its a stupied rule but for any motor vehical on the road it has to have some kind windshield this is why when in PA if your in an accident if your windshield is damaged 9 times out of 10 they wont let you drive the vehical away even if it is driveable. Rule of thumb for windshield cracks and inspection is if your windshield wipers pass over the crack it fails inspection. Im not tryin to be an a$4hole here im just trying to tell you before you go into court that having your windshield down on a public roadway at least in PA is illegal lol hell if i wanted to i could get my inspection licence but by law im not allowed to inspect my own cars and i dont want to be a mechanic for a living so theres no point in getting it:D
 
#28 ·
PA all county's except for philly's Traffic court (1st hearing only) the arresting officer has to be present at the hearing. PA's law is and for some reason philly dosent apply to this. You have the right to face your accuser in court in this case the officer.
 
#34 ·
It all depends on the judge or the magistrate.

I've been to court more times than I care to admit and about the only thing that holds true is that the outcome almost always depends primarily on the judge or the magistrate. Some are a$$es and some are not. Some really enjoy their position of power over the little people and some actually understand what their job is. If you choose to fight it my advice is to be well prepared, be very respectful, kiss a$$ a little bit, present your side of the argument in clear concise sentences, never bring emotions into it, always refer to the police officers and the court officials as sir or mam and accept the outcome with grace. The more of a jerk you are to them the more they will jerk you around. Law enforcement and court actions always boil down to the peronalities and the egos of the people involved.
 
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