Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles - Page 16 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:22 PM   #451
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I wanted to share this link with you folks. Original Replacement Parts 52059982AD - Front Track Bar for 07-13 Jeep® Wrangler & Wrangler Unlimited JK with Left Hand Drive - Quadratec

It is an OEM style non adjustable trackbar for $80. Sure the adjustable ones are nice but sometimes when youre broke you just dont have $250.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RhettS View Post
Is there a thread or location that will give me the torque specs on the factory suspension bolts that I am not replacing (upper control arms and misc fasteners)?

Thanks for the help!
You probably ought to buy a chiltons manual for the jeep anyway, it'd list them all. Or a factory MOPAR service manual if you find one for cheap (mechanics do go out of business sometimes!) Sadly those mopar manuals seem to be worth about $400 on ebay.

My local parts store lets me un-shrinkwrap service manuals and read them without buying them. But i've also spent thousands of dollars on parts there. Just sayin'. Sure helped me change a starter before.

Anyway i couldnt find the torque specs for you, sorry about that.

I tried to find the specs for you but I didnt find them

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Old 06-27-2013, 08:50 PM   #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RhettS View Post
Is there a thread or location that will give me the torque specs on the factory suspension bolts that I am not replacing (upper control arms and misc fasteners)?

Thanks for the help!
Project-JK.com - Jeep JK Wrangler Resource » Jeep JK Wrangler Torque Settings

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Old 06-27-2013, 09:54 PM   #453
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Awesome - Just what I needed! Thanks so much everyone!
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:57 PM   #454
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My follow-up, as promised...

SO...as promised here is a follow-up to my DW problem:
  • My front drag link and intermediate steering shaft were replaced under dealer warranty. This did NOT help with the DW.
  • I performed all the tests described earlier in this thread (yes, those are really great videos!!!). None of my suspension components indicated anything abnormal.
  • I then replaced the track bar and LCA bolts (front and rear) with the recommended Northridge kit (though GR8 bolts from Lowe's would have worked just as well). When I removed the TB bolts, I did observe a lot of play and the sleeve inserts were definitely marred by the bolt threads. The stock bolts are definitely too small. The replacement bolts had a much nicer fit, and fortunately none of mounting holes appeared worn to the point of concern. The hardest part of the whole process was removing and tightening those darn bolts while laying on the garage floor...125 ft-lbs is a LOT of torque!
  • At the same time, I also installed an AEV Geometry Correction Kit. It was very easy to install (except for one bolt on the passenger's side). The combination of the new hardware and AEB brackets fixed my DW!!!!
  • And while I was at it, I also installed a MOPAR steering stabilizer just last week, which is made for use with lifted vehicles. It's a great package that relocates the damper up and away from harm. The DW was gone before this was installed, however.
My Jeep is once again driveable without worry! Whew!

In summary, I really think the track bar hardware may have been the culprit.

Just as an aside, the AEV kit provided a noticeable improvement in handling. For the price, I can live with the LCA brackets being just a bit lower. The kit is certainly meaty enough to survive "rock encounters of the close kind." LOL. Seriously, for as banged up as my undercarriage is, those brackets are the least of my worries.

My special thanks to everyone on the forum who helped me with this problem!!!!!

And now I will end this message by stating: PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

Regards,

Bob~
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:54 AM   #455
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Can someone please tell me why Chrysler doesn't do a bit better job with their design to avoid all this effort? I bought my 2007 JK as a low-mileage used vehicle in 2010 and the DW started immediately. The dealer didn't know jack about it. Should a committee from WF fly to Detroit and present the Wrangler staff with the results?
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:27 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by tom h View Post
Can someone please tell me why Chrysler doesn't do a bit better job with their design to avoid all this effort? I bought my 2007 JK as a low-mileage used vehicle in 2010 and the DW started immediately. The dealer didn't know jack about it. Should a committee from WF fly to Detroit and present the Wrangler staff with the results?
They use cheap plastic lined, non-serviceable ball joints to save money. This leads to premature failure, but usually after the warranty expires.

They use fully threaded, 14 mm trackbar bolts in 9/16" or larger bracket holes and trackbar bushings to facilitate the assembly line process. When suspension bolts loose proper torque due to metal fatigue, bolts stretching, and or typical suspension cycling and vibrations, the smaller bolts result in increased damage to bushings and bracket holes.

I don't understand why retorquing all the suspension bolts isn't part of regular maintenance--specifically, retorquing the front trackbar bolts at every oil change interval. This is a no-brainier.

I don't understand why they don't train dealer techs how to simply diagnose and fix problems, instead of just throwing on a heavier steering stabilizer. This is pathetic. Those of you who have watched my 2 YouTube videos understand more about what is going on with the front end than most dealer techs.

Other than that, the JK front end is a big upgrade over the TJ/XJ/ZJ front ends. The trackbar and bolts, the tie rod and drag link, the control arms, and the axle housing are all beefier. The old y-link steering is gone. It is all better. It is a really good design when properly maintained and when failed factory parts get upgraded with quality aftermarket parts.

Even with the cheap ball joints and smaller bolts, a small fraction of JK owners will ever experience DW if they properly maintain their jeep, don't install poorly designed aftermarket parts, and properly install quality aftermarket parts.
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Old 07-17-2013, 03:29 PM   #457
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So basically I should tell the dealer: "before I sign on the dotted line" you have to replace the factory bolts with 9/16's????
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Old 07-17-2013, 10:23 PM   #458
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So basically I should tell the dealer: "before I sign on the dotted line" you have to replace the factory bolts with 9/16's????
No. However, I would ask them to retorque all the control arm and trackbar bolts to spec if it was not already part of their PDI.

9/16" bolts are an upgrade, not a requirement.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:07 PM   #459
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No. However, I would ask them to retorque all the control arm and trackbar bolts to spec if it was not already part of their PDI.

9/16" bolts are an upgrade, not a requirement.
I doubt most dealers check that? I think i'll just offer to pay for the bolt kit and see if they will do it?
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:17 AM   #460
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I doubt most dealers check that? I think i'll just offer to pay for the bolt kit and see if they will do it?
I highly doubt they would.

They might even tell you some stupid crap like that it would void you warranty--as if upgraded bolts would cause any factory part to fail.

If you are worried about it, buy a torque wrench capable of 125 ft lbs, a 21mm socket, an extension, and a 21 mm wrench, and retorque the lower control arms and the trackbars. Shouldn't take more than 10-15 minutes.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:04 AM   #461
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Exclamation Death wobble

I was checking out the death wobble post because this is exactly what happened to me a few times.
The difference was that it was happening on my stock JK, with no lift.
My unit came from factory with the 'front rake', the front end sat lower than the rear. When measured next to a buddys factory setup, he had 1" more space between the front axle and the axle stop than my rig. So it looked like when I went over this rough railroad crossing at 50mph, the axle would pound against the stop and death wobble would start (harmonics).
I thought there wasn't enough gap between the axle and the stop, so I spec'd out new front springs, raised the front end 1 1/2" and levelled it out. This has helped, but DW has happened again since. So thanks for the tips, today I'm gonna get under there and look real close at these trackbar issues mentioned in the post.
Kinda weird, any local Jeep guys I've talked to haven't heard of this problem before. Sure glad I found this post, it's a scary thing to have happen at 50mph! Thanks!
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:05 AM   #462
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If youre hitting the bump stops on a railroad crossing you're driving way too fast. That's all that is. That's unrelated to deathwobble, which is a side to side motion.

Did you read the first two posts and try those suggestions? It worked for me. You probably have worn out trackbar bushings, but if it's happened more than once or twice then it's probably damaged other bushings, and possibly even your shocks, etc. It's also definitely damaged your steering dampener, but steering dampeners wont fix death wobble but death wobble will damage them.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:54 PM   #463
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Come drive in Manitoba and you'll see our roads are sh!+ compared to most anywhere else. It's common to be in 60mph traffic and encounter severe potholes, etc., that'll for sure damage something. I slow down for the ones I know about, it's the holes that pop up overnight that'll catch you off guard. Avoiding all of them is impossible. When we're on the interstate in North Dakota, it's like floating on a cloud the roads are so nice.
So I got underneath with my pry bar and there is no up and down motion to the track bar, only 2mm side to side movement, along the axis of the bolts. Bushings look ok, welds are ok. If these bolts are indeed too small, or the bushings are hooped, it's not showing when prying up on the track bar ends. Shims would take up the side to side slop but is this enough?
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:01 AM   #464
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Your bushings are probably shot. But you should have torqued the trackbar down to 125 ft lb too, if its loose its going to have play. If it still has play take it off and look at it. It should have no play but theres a lot of stress on it.

Anyway, dont use any shims at all. If its bad replace it or the bushings


And the bolts are too small but if its torqued down, it doesnt matter. Problem is the bolts stretch and lose torque and move, and then the looseness lets them wobble out your mounting brackets. And the full threads cut into the bushing damaging it.

My bushings looked fine by the way.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:12 AM   #465
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Thanks for the tips. Today I'm gonna order new bushings and buy the hardware. Should wheels be off the ground for this job or OK just to go ahead and take it out as is? Do wheels need alignment after?
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Old 07-27-2013, 09:50 AM   #466
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Planman,
First, thank you so much for all the great info. I have a 2013 JKUR with 2,300 miles on it. Stock. No DW...but I want to avoid it as I had it terrible with a Dodge Pickup couple years back.

Based on all the great info. Here is what I'm doing. Wondering if you wouldn't mind looking over and giving feedback:

(1) Today, I am going to torque the control arms and track bar bolts, just to ensure they are correct.
(2) I have the synergy complete bolt upgrade coming in the mail. Includes LCA/UCA/TB. When this comes in, I will replace them all and torque to spec.
(3) In a few weeks, I am installing the AEV 2.5" Dualsport Lift, including the Geometry Correction brackets. I will mark each bolt with a paint pen for easy visual checks.
(4) While it wasn't in the original plan, I am also going to purchase and install a more substantial, adjustable front track bar while doing the lift. Looking at TF Monster.
(5) I will make it part of my maintenance to re torque everything during every oil change (3k miles)

Sound right? Again, I appreciate all of your effort to post this.
-Bryan
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:40 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by 5150Rubicon View Post
Planman,
First, thank you so much for all the great info. I have a 2013 JKUR with 2,300 miles on it. Stock. No DW...but I want to avoid it as I had it terrible with a Dodge Pickup couple years back.

Based on all the great info. Here is what I'm doing. Wondering if you wouldn't mind looking over and giving feedback:

(1) Today, I am going to torque the control arms and track bar bolts, just to ensure they are correct.
(2) I have the synergy complete bolt upgrade coming in the mail. Includes LCA/UCA/TB. When this comes in, I will replace them all and torque to spec.
(3) In a few weeks, I am installing the AEV 2.5" Dualsport Lift, including the Geometry Correction brackets. I will mark each bolt with a paint pen for easy visual checks.
(4) While it wasn't in the original plan, I am also going to purchase and install a more substantial, adjustable front track bar while doing the lift. Looking at TF Monster.
(5) I will make it part of my maintenance to re torque everything during every oil change (3k miles)

Sound right? Again, I appreciate all of your effort to post this.
-Bryan
The stock front trackbar should be fine with a 2.5" lift. You could save those funds towards other upgrades if you stay at 2.5".

Although not all absolutely required, the bolt kit is a great upgrade.

The primary issue is to wait to torque all the new bolts until the full weight of the vehicle is on the ground at the new ride height so that the control arm and trackbar bushings are not twisted/pre-loaded/binding at a different ride height. This can be done either with the tires/wheels reinstalled and the full weight of the vehicle on the ground, or with the full weight of the vehicle on its axles on jack stands. If they are torqued with the vehicle on a lift and the suspension drooped, or if you weren't doing the bolt upgrade and failed to loosen all the bolts for the install, that twisting/pre-loading/binding leads to premature bushing failure.

If you are swapping to aftermarket wheels or adding wheel spacers, be sure to remove the stock lug retainer clips.

Also, be sure to torque wheel lug nuts in a star pattern. My preference is to do it with the tires in the air. You can put your rig into 4HI or have a helper apply the brakes to stop the front wheels from spinning when you torque them.

Everything else looks great.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:51 AM   #468
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The stock front trackbar should be fine with a 2.5" lift. You could save those funds towards other upgrades if you stay at 2.5".

Although not all absolutely required, the bolt kit is a great upgrade.

The primary issue is to wait to torque all the new bolts until the full weight of the vehicle is on the ground at the new ride height so that the control arm and trackbar bushings are not twisted/pre-loaded/binding at a different ride height. This can be done either with the tires/wheels reinstalled and the full weight of the vehicle on the ground, or with the full weight of the vehicle on its axles on jack stands. If they are torqued with the vehicle on a lift and the suspension drooped, or if you weren't doing the bolt upgrade and failed to loosen all the bolts for the install, that twisting/pre-loading/binding leads to premature bushing failure.

If you are swapping to aftermarket wheels or adding wheel spacers, be sure to remove the stock lug retainer clips.

Also, be sure to torque wheel lug nuts in a star pattern. My preference is to do it with the tires in the air. You can put your rig into 4HI or have a helper apply the brakes to stop the front wheels from spinning when you torque them.

Everything else looks great.
Thanks man! I'll report back to the thread when I torque my "factory" CA and TB bolts tonight. So curious to see if they are all to spec.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:56 AM   #469
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Thanks for the tips. Today I'm gonna order new bushings and buy the hardware. Should wheels be off the ground for this job or OK just to gi o ahead and take it out as is? Do wheels need alignment after?
I guess i am late for this but. Make sure thats grade 8 hardware. You need your jeep at ride height. As long as you dont put jackstands under the frame youll be fine.
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Old 07-27-2013, 12:15 PM   #470
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Purchasing Torque Wrench

Planman,

Going to buy a torque wrench (and socket, wrench, extension, etc) this afternoon. I went through the factory Torque Specs for the JK...and this wrench seems to cover all the torque ranges except two (T-case companion flange nut, pitman arm to gear). It covers 10-150 ft. lbs. Just wondering, is this a quality wrench? I've never bought one before, so not sure if a wrench is a wrench is a wrench?

Powerbuilt 3/8 in. and 1/2 in.Dual Drive Torque Wrench

An essential tool for precision torque applications. This reversible ratcheting dual drive torque wrench accepts both 3/8-inch and 1/2-inch drive sockets and is great for accurately torquing nuts and bolts from 10 to 150 ft. lbs.
  • Double-sided head accepts 3/8 in. or 1/2 in. sockets
  • Torque range: 10 to 150 ft. lbs
  • Meets or exceeds ANSI standards
  • Two year warranty on construction and mechanisms
  • MFG Model # : 944001
  • MFG Part # : 944001
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Old 07-27-2013, 01:46 PM   #471
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I am not familiar with that one. I have had poor results with Craftsman.

My favorite is this one for $99 shipped (likely need to contact the vendor rep directly for that deal):

http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63688

A torque wrench is a precision instrument. It should always be stored at its lowest setting. It should never be dropped. It should only be used in the tightening direction and not used to loosen anything. It should only be used to torque and not as a ratchet.

For those few circumstances where you need more than 150 ft lbs, go to 150 and then use a breaker bar to go past it. Don't torque anything beyond the tool's capacity.
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Old 07-27-2013, 04:11 PM   #472
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I have the cheapest torque wrench i could find. Offbrand from oreilly auto parts. But its guaranteed forever. One time it fell apart and almost seriously hurt me. A screw on it wasnt properly torque. Go figure. But it is calibrated well and they replaced it no questions asked. Maybe buying the cheapest one wasnt the best idea.

This one was calibrated from the factory.
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:16 PM   #473
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I am not familiar with that one. I have had poor results with Craftsman.

My favorite is this one for $99 shipped (likely need to contact the vendor rep directly for that deal):

Digital Torque Wrench - Holiday Special - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

A torque wrench is a precision instrument. It should always be stored at its lowest setting. It should never be dropped. It should only be used in the tightening direction and not used to loosen anything. It should only be used to torque and not as a ratchet.

For those few circumstances where you need more than 150 ft lbs, go to 150 and then use a breaker bar to go past it. Don't torque anything beyond the tool's capacity.

I don't totaly agree with the statement that torque wrenches only be used for tightening direction.. Some may take this as meaning that the wrench can only be used in a clockwise direction.. As long as you are tightening you can do counter-clockwise torque jobs too.. (For left hand thread applications).

That's probably what he ment but there is always the possibility of some confusion here by some inexperianced people in here! Otherwise good job!
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Old 08-06-2013, 02:44 PM   #474
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Bolt Grade Ratings

Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
I am not familiar with that one. I have had poor results with Craftsman.

My favorite is this one for $99 shipped (likely need to contact the vendor rep directly for that deal):

Digital Torque Wrench - Holiday Special - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

A torque wrench is a precision instrument. It should always be stored at its lowest setting. It should never be dropped. It should only be used in the tightening direction and not used to loosen anything. It should only be used to torque and not as a ratchet.

For those few circumstances where you need more than 150 ft lbs, go to 150 and then use a breaker bar to go past it. Don't torque anything beyond the tool's capacity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
He thinks they are just fine, he reinstalled them with the new steering stabilizer. I agree that brand names can make a difference in some aspects, just not in this one. I highly doubt that Synergy is having these bolts custom made just for them, like the local fastener stores and even Lowes, they are sources them from either distributors or the manufacture.

The bolts I picked up look exactly like the ones in the Synergy kit (I know theirs are Grade 9). I was actually looking at the Northridge kit before the time constraint was applied. They actually list out what the bolts truly are and Lowes had the exact same type (slightly different thread spacing, 12 vs 18). The Lowes bolts were not any cheaper either, actually cost me more then that Northridge kit would have.

If repackaged bolts with a name on them you know makes anyone feel better about them, then they should go with those. I just wanted to point out that there are other local options out there.

US bolts only come in Grade 2; Grade 5; Grade 8; and Stainless / Grade 8-18.. There is no Grade 9.

What Are the Different Grades of Bolts? | eHow

another FYI.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:57 PM   #475
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Technically, they are F9, not grade 9.


Regarding the torque wrench, it will hold its calibration longer if only used to clockwise/tighten and not used to loosen anything.

Does that mean you can't use it to tighten/torque a reverse thread bolt in a counterclockwise fashion? No.

It just means that you shouldn't use a torque wrench to loosen a bolt, and it will hold its calibration longer if you only use it to clockwise/tighten/torque.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:34 PM   #476
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Guess I have a lot of reading to do tonight, since I...

JUST FREAKING EXPERIENCED THE TERROR OF THE WARBLE!!!!

Holy Crap that was a wild experience, damn near bouncing off a residential but pocketed mountain road. Reading about the warble is one thing -- and certainly doesn't prepare you for the experience.

Hmmm, where to start.

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Old 08-07-2013, 01:01 PM   #477
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Spec'd front oem trackbar replacement bushings for the '08 JKU at Quadratec. Their description of the bushing says it's for the frame end only from '07-'09 and for both ends from '10-'13.

Anyone know why the difference and where to get both?
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:26 PM   #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbigwrench View Post
Spec'd front oem trackbar replacement bushings for the '08 JKU at Quadratec. Their description of the bushing says it's for the frame end only from '07-'09 and for both ends from '10-'13.

Anyone know why the difference and where to get both?
Mopar parts sez they sell new track bars only!!
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:20 PM   #479
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I would suggest just buying a whole OEM style trackbar off quadratec for $80. will save you lots of frustration.

on my 08 the bushings were both different sizes, the frame end being smaller. Was supposed to not press the outer bushing sleeve out, and install the new bushing inside it. First of all, i didnt know that before i did it, oops. Could NOT find a replacement bushing WHATSOEVER. Furthermore, that's not the right way to do this. At all.

Besides that, takes an hour or less to change a trackbar. The bushings? Heh....hope you have a torch.

I was able to get a used trackbar for a song off this forum though.
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:11 AM   #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganadam View Post
I would suggest just buying a whole OEM style trackbar off quadratec for $80. will save you lots of frustration.

on my 08 the bushings were both different sizes, the frame end being smaller. Was supposed to not press the outer bushing sleeve out, and install the new bushing inside it. First of all, i didnt know that before i did it, oops. Could NOT find a replacement bushing WHATSOEVER. Furthermore, that's not the right way to do this. At all.

Besides that, takes an hour or less to change a trackbar. The bushings? Heh....hope you have a torch.

I was able to get a used trackbar for a song off this forum though.
Thanks for the tips. Sounds like the best way to go is replacing the whole thing.

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