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Old 12-22-2011, 10:40 AM   #151
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How common is DW on a 2009 2dr? Also what is the best way to make sure your vehicle doesn't have it? Going on a long road trip next month, and just brought a used wrangler.

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Old 12-22-2011, 06:42 PM   #152
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I would say to use the DW articles #1 and #2 at the very start of this post. FOLLOW THAT to a T and you will either solve it or find out what's wrong with it. I had DW and once you have it, there's no mistaken it. It feels like your front end is disintegrating! Quite eye opening. But I'm sure the guys on the forum here will guide you in the right direction. I followed what was listed and I'm good now.

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Old 12-22-2011, 06:58 PM   #153
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Well I just have to check to make sure I don't have it before I start my roadtrip, I assume the best way is to just jump on the highway and go a few exits?

Its a used jeep I just purchased, would hate to start my 3 day drive and find out about a DW prob.
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:23 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
I do not recall where I read it, but I understand that nylock nuts do not give accurate torque spec readings due to the resistance from the nylon. This might be fine for armor, but I would be hesitant to use them with suspension components.

It would be best to use stover top lock nuts. However, I understand that a nut with a lock washer would be second best.

Poly Performance sells a grade 8 hardware kit for the JK:

Poly Performance JEEP/TRUCK & BUGGY*::*Suspension*::*Suspension & Lift Kits*::*Jeep Suspension Systems*::*2007-Current Jeep JK Wrangler Suspension Systems*::*Synergy Suspension*::*Synergy Suspension Jeep JK F911 Hardware Kit - 4X4 Off-Road Parts, JK



It replaces all the hardware in all 4 lower control arms and both trackbars.

Description:
High strength F911 hardware
Replaces the Lower Control Arm (LCA) hardware that gets destroyed from wheeling abuse
Replaces the Track Bar (TB) bolts which often get worn out from service
Includes hardened extra thick washers that will not deform or contort like standard washers

Kit Includes:

(8) 9/16-18 UNF x 4.0" long F911 bolts (LCAs)
(4) 9/16-18 UNF x 3.0" long F911 bolts (TBs)
(12) 9/16-18 UNF G9 Stover top lock nuts
(24) 9/16" Extra Thick G9 hardened flat washers

It may seem steep at $65, but it isn't easy to find the Stover top lock nuts in smaller quantities.

If you ordered 25 Stovers at $20, and then spent $2.25 each for the 8 bolts that are 4" long, $2 each for the 4 that are 3" long, and $0.50 each for 24 extra thick washers, you'd spend $58 gathering the hardware yourself to save $7.

Although the front trackbar is the one of biggest concern, it would definitely not hurt to upgrade the hardware for both trackbars and all 4 lower control arms.
Following up on this, a separate thread with some good pics and so on has developed on replacing these bolts. You can find it here.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:24 AM   #155
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This is so helpful!
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:37 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by planman View Post
I do not recall where I read it, but I understand that nylock nuts do not give accurate torque spec readings due to the resistance from the nylon.

Check here:Nylok Basics

If these are used by an OEM, the prevailing torque would have been factored in the recommended torque value.

«Torque prevailing fasteners (such as Nyloc, Cleveloc nuts etc.) are often used where there exists a risk of vibration loosening. The prevailing torque has the effect of increasing the torsional stress in the bolt shank during tightening. This affects the conversion of the tightening torque into bolt preload and should be allowed for when determining the correct torque value for this type of fastener. »

From here:Methods of Tightening Threaded Fasteners


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Old 01-03-2012, 02:53 PM   #157
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Installation of 9/16" bolts

I installed the 9/16" bolts on the front and rear TB but torquing the bolt to 125 ftlb/in^2 caused the metal bracket to suck in a bit. Is this an issue?

Thanks Jerome
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:02 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by rome215 View Post
I installed the 9/16" bolts on the front and rear TB but torquing the bolt to 125 ftlb/in^2 caused the metal bracket to suck in a bit. Is this an issue?

Thanks Jerome
If it happened because the bushing bolt sleeve has bent or collapsed, then it is not good. The sleeve and/or bushing would need to be replaced.

If the bushing bolt sleeves are still solid and true, then it is good because it means that your bracket was loose.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:32 AM   #159
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No the bushings were good. It seems like the factory torqued them down much more then the 125 recommended torque, is that normal?

Also I want to change the upper and lower control arm bolts, looking at the torq spec sheet they are not listed on there, is there another name for them?

Thanks for all the help.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:08 PM   #160
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For some reason they are only listed as 75 ft lb.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:27 PM   #161
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For some reason they are only listed as 75 ft lb.
The front upper arms are 75 ft lbs.

The lowers are 125 ft. lbs.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:34 AM   #162
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Oh bugger, apologies - I just reread the previous post and somehow did not see the lower arm part of the post! I though rome215 was asking for the uppers only....
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:15 PM   #163
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Alright, I'm totally on board with the way to stay DW free. I have my polyperformance bolt kit, which I will be putting in place when KJeeper10 and I do my lift this Saturday. As I was crawling around underneath just now with my PB blaster can getting things ready tonight, a question struck me. I know that the front upper and lower CA bolts as well as the trac bar bolts need to be loosened while the Jeep is on the stands and not torqued until on the floor, but howabout the rear CA bolts and trackbar bolts? My kit came with a rear tracbar relo bracket, so the bottom bolt will be taken out, but is the top necessary? I don't remember reading anything anywhere about these.

Thanks
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:17 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by gluestick View Post
Alright, I'm totally on board with the way to stay DW free. I have my polyperformance bolt kit, which I will be putting in place when KJeeper10 and I do my lift this Saturday. As I was crawling around underneath just now with my PB blaster can getting things ready tonight, a question struck me. I know that the front upper and lower CA bolts as well as the trac bar bolts need to be loosened while the Jeep is on the stands and not torqued until on the floor, but howabout the rear CA bolts and trackbar bolts? My kit came with a rear tracbar relo bracket, so the bottom bolt will be taken out, but is the top necessary? I don't remember reading anything anywhere about these.

Thanks
All rubber and polyurethane bushings need to be in a nuetral position when torqued instead of being twisted/binding/pre-loaded at the wrong ride height.

When you change the ride height without loosening all the control arm and trackbar bushings, they are twisted to the former ride height.

So, you need to loosen all the trackbar and control arm bolts, front and back, uppers and lowers, when you install the lift.

Then, after the vehicle is back on the ground, with the tires and wheels on, rock the vehicle to make sure nothing is binding. Then, re-torque all the bolts to spec at the new ride height.

Then, after 50 miles driving, retorque them again.

Then, retorque everything at every oil change interval--or at the very least the front trackbar bolts.
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:50 AM   #165
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Will do, thanks again for sharing your knowledge. If you lived closer, I'd take you out for a beer!
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:40 AM   #166
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This is an awesome thread read up good I am in the process of doing this to my JK!
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:42 PM   #167
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I want to thank Planman and others for bringing the 14 mm bolt problem in the track bar to our attention. Today I replaced both bolts with 9/16 x 3" grade 8 fine thread bolts with nuts and lockwashers. I purchased the hardware from Fastenal. The slop in the original bolts was just as you described. My Rubicon only has 2,500 miles on it but there were slight marks on the sleeves inside the bushings where the all thread bolts were starting to bite into the metal. I had to file one end of the trackbar sleeve bushing because somehow there was a small ridge not allowing the bolt to go through. Maybe it was caused by the pressure of the bolt being tightened at the factory. 125 foot pounds is quite a squeeze. The passenger side went quickly and the bolt fit fine. I was anticipating having trouble holding the nut after reading some having problems and seeing the flag on the original nut but I found that my 7/8 box end wrench with a 15 degree angle end fit onto it perfectly in a vertical up position. Wonder why Chrysler continues to ignore this issue.
Thanks again for the information.

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Old 01-13-2012, 01:22 PM   #168
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Was kind of skeptical of this bolt replacement project and after speaking with two local Jeep aftermarket shops that thought it was far fetched I went ahead and got the nut & bolts and started with the front track bar.The stock bolts had on sign of wear nor did the holes that mount the bushing,they rere real tightand no play whatsoever.... I do like the idea of the washers and the larger size bolts ... had to use the hammer to get the bolt through the back side of the bracket , torqued the nylock nuts to 130 ft lbs... took for a ride and all seems ok... ps Fastnal said they did not have the flange nut so I went with nylock and added 5 ft lbs to the tq .....
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Old 01-15-2012, 02:17 PM   #169
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My 2012 has 9500 miles on it. I checked the TB bolts today. The passenger side was at 125 but the drivers side bolts were probably 110'ish. Tightened and paint marked the bolts. LCA's were good. Easy preventative maintenance...
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:29 AM   #170
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I have over 19,000 miles on my COD Rubicon and no troubles yet.
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Old 01-16-2012, 07:45 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman1138
I have over 19,000 miles on my COD Rubicon and no troubles yet.
It's almost--though not entirely--unheard of on an unmodded vehicle, so I wouldn't be too concerned.
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:35 AM   #172
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I've had the COD aligned twice already and it wasn't out too bad, but I'm going to be on the look out nonetheless.
Now if I had a place to replace these bolts and some help, I'd to so as a precaution.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:14 PM   #173
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I bought the poly performance bolt kit, and contacted my Jeep Dealer, but they told me that the dealership wont install the aftermarket kit.

Anyone have their dealer install these bolts?
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:20 PM   #174
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I bought the poly performance bolt kit, and contacted my Jeep Dealer, but they told me that the dealership wont install the aftermarket kit.

Anyone have their dealer install these bolts?
Why have the dealer do anything? Just do it yourself or have a shop do it.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #175
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Is there a link anywhere to instructions?
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:43 PM   #176
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Is there a link anywhere to instructions?
Unscrew old bolts. Insert new bolts. Tighten to spec. Retighten after 50 miles or so. There's a few torque value charts floating around somewhere--like this one. Find some local jeepers and offer pizza/beer in exchange for a little wrenching/learning.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:24 PM   #177
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Death Wobble

I intended to post this here, but inadvertently posted it to the TJ Forum. Thought I would just add it here also since it involves our JK.

Just thought I would throw in my two cents worth. Our 09 Wrangler is the ninth Jeep to grace our home and the third (a TJ, 08 JK, 09 JK) to come down with the dreaded DWs. On the TJ, a re-torque of the front-end solved the problem and the dealer replacement of the damper and re-torque solved the problem on the 08 JK.

Last weekend we had our first fit of the DWs in 09 JK. So we copied all of the good info provided here, along with several links to videos from Youtube.com and took 09 in to the servicing dealer. For the first time in years, the folks in the service department didn’t look at us like we were crazy and appeared to understand our problem. We checked in later and found out that the service folks had gotten together with the mechanics to hold a joint review of the problem.

Chrysler has always maintained it was the damper failure that caused the wobble, and then the wobble caused the front-end to shake loose, thus it required a new damper and to be re-torqued.

At the same time, most owners have maintained the front end came loose, started to wobble, and that caused the damper to fail. Personally, I have always leaned towards the concept that since the front-ends of other vehicles do not just loosen up on their own, something had to be failing that initiated the wobble, and it was this violent shaking that caused everything to come loose.

So which came first – the chicken or the egg? Well, Chrysler Jeep must have finally taken this issue seriously. Ok, it only took them about ten years!!! Today I received an email along with a picture of the new damper they are installing. They are apparently sticking with the damper being the root of the problem, but the replacement damper appears to be a serious replacement.

The replacement damper, on the right, is obviously more substantial. We will see how this goes
?!?!
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:35 PM   #178
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So which came first – the chicken or the egg? Well, Chrysler Jeep must have finally taken this issue seriously. Ok, it only took them about ten years!!! Today I received an email along with a picture of the new damper they are installing. They are apparently sticking with the damper being the root of the problem, but the replacement damper appears to be a serious replacement.

The replacement damper, on the right, is obviously more substantial. We will see how this goes
?!?!
Does Chrysler need my mailing address so they know where to send me my new super-damper?
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:44 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceful Pirate
I intended to post this here, but inadvertently posted it to the TJ Forum. Thought I would just add it here also since it involves our JK.

Just thought I would throw in my two cents worth. Our 09 Wrangler is the ninth Jeep to grace our home and the third (a TJ, 08 JK, 09 JK) to come down with the dreaded DWs. On the TJ, a re-torque of the front-end solved the problem and the dealer replacement of the damper and re-torque solved the problem on the 08 JK.

Last weekend we had our first fit of the DWs in 09 JK. So we copied all of the good info provided here, along with several links to videos from Youtube.com and took 09 in to the servicing dealer. For the first time in years, the folks in the service department didn’t look at us like we were crazy and appeared to understand our problem. We checked in later and found out that the service folks had gotten together with the mechanics to hold a joint review of the problem.

Chrysler has always maintained it was the damper failure that caused the wobble, and then the wobble caused the front-end to shake loose, thus it required a new damper and to be re-torqued.

At the same time, most owners have maintained the front end came loose, started to wobble, and that caused the damper to fail. Personally, I have always leaned towards the concept that since the front-ends of other vehicles do not just loosen up on their own, something had to be failing that initiated the wobble, and it was this violent shaking that caused everything to come loose.

So which came first – the chicken or the egg? Well, Chrysler Jeep must have finally taken this issue seriously. Ok, it only took them about ten years!!! Today I received an email along with a picture of the new damper they are installing. They are apparently sticking with the damper being the root of the problem, but the replacement damper appears to be a serious replacement.

The replacement damper, on the right, is obviously more substantial. We will see how this goes
?!?!
One problem..... From all the reading I've done here.... The "damper" aka steering stabilizer, will not cause DW-but mask it.

Many folks IMO never experience real DW.
Jeep shakes so violently that you have to stop to control it. Shaking of the front end/or vibration is not true DW.
Although vibrations unattended to can lead to more serious problems or worse DW.

If the damper fixes your problem I highly doubt you have DW.
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:08 PM   #180
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kjeeper10 – Understand your skepticism; however, this is not the first rodeo. The 09 JK is the ninth Willys/CJ/Wrangler that has been parked in the yard over many years and I completely agree that a front-end shimmy/shake is not the dreaded DW! I would say it is the difference is between having your coffee splash out of the cup and having the damn cup fly up and be thrown out the window! That is exactly why I spent Sunday evening installing the tow bar we had sitting around so we could tow the 09 in Monday morning rather than drive it to the dealer an hour away.

Like you, I am also somewhat skeptic that this is the answer to the problem, but at least Chrysler Jeep has finally begun to openly acknowledge that something is wrong and they need to address it.

Question – To anyone’s knowledge, has anyone ever been seriously injured or killed due to going out of control during a DW episode? Just curious as to why the Chrysler Jeep folks have stayed so low key on this thing for so long.

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