Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles - Page 8 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:07 PM   #211
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Iv changed out the track bar on my tj hoping to cure the death wobble, would changing out the factory track bar bolt to a 9/16 grade 8 bolt apply to tj's also?

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Old 02-27-2012, 10:34 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by F1LOCO
So if torquing to 125lbs is the key, would it be advisable to add a little red loc-t to the threads to help keep it at 125?
I don't believe it is necessary. Instead, use a marker on the nut, bolt, and bracket to be able to visually see if the nut has backed off.

More often than not, a loosening of torque spec is from the bolt stretching (if fairly new), the bushing bolt sleeve collapsing, and/or something similar.

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Old 03-09-2012, 09:05 AM   #213
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It seems like the posters in this thread are, in some cases, automatically assuming that any shimmy or wobble up front is DW. From the first couple of posts it seems that there are many non-DW causeses for front end shimmy. Ive been experiencing a front end shimmy at highway speeds, but it is nowhere near as drastic as what was shown in the video example of DW. Also, I did not have to come to a complete stop to make the shaking stop. Took it to the dealer this morning and they said hat he steering bamper is bad. Now I dont know what to think.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:26 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramius View Post
It seems like the posters in this thread are, in some cases, automatically assuming that any shimmy or wobble up front is DW. From the first couple of posts it seems that there are many non-DW causeses for front end shimmy. Ive been experiencing a front end shimmy at highway speeds, but it is nowhere near as drastic as what was shown in the video example of DW. Also, I did not have to come to a complete stop to make the shaking stop. Took it to the dealer this morning and they said hat he steering bamper is bad. Now I dont know what to think.
"Bad steering dampener" is the canned response from the dealer. Most dealers haven't a clue what they're talking about in regards to death wobble. A bad steering dampener does not cause death wobble, and a good one will only mask it. I know people who don't even use a steering dampener, and are fine without it.

Remove the steering dampener and take it for a drive. Mine had an occasional shimmy at speeds above 40mph, that would not require coming to a full stop for it to go away. I removed the steering dampener and almost immediately got the full violent death wobble that would not go away until I came to a complete stop. It turned out to be worn stock ball joints.
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:20 AM   #215
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SeaComms-I was under a 2010 Rubicon with 16,000 miles yesterday and guess what I found,cams shoulders in the lower control arms.If a person were to pull the bolt they will find tabs in the control arm that weren't punched out.And if a person were to punch the tabs out caster could be adjusted with the stock bolts or adjustment cams if they were put in.Why did Jeep do this if they didn't know there was a caster problem with the factory Jeeps? Mercedes Benz for years hid the fact that the rear end of certain models had toe adjustment even though nobody had that info in their manuals.Things that make you wonder!!!!
Hi 98dyna, and Seacomms. Where are you at? I am in Houston Texas and needs a shop to come to have them look at my 2008 Wrangler X limited. Not lifted. I got the wobble when I put the air pressure to the one listed in the manual. Then it happened. Anybody in Houston that may fix this. Please help. Thanks
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:08 AM   #216
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How long does it take for death wobble to effect the ride? Would you notice it the first time you take a corner after you installed a lift kit?
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:17 AM   #217
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How long does it take for death wobble to effect the ride? Would you notice it the first time you take a corner after you installed a lift kit?
It takes a little time for components to wear, although death wobble happens on stock vehicles as well. It's just more likely on lifted vehicles.

Regularly retorquing your trackbar and lower control arm bolts goes a long way in preventing death wobble. I had a lift on for 2-1/2 years with stock bolts before experiencing death wobble, and my death wobble had nothing to do with bolts or trackbars or control arms. Mine was due to worn stock ball joints which aren't designed to handle bigger, heavier tires and a wider stance.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:24 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterkid05
How long does it take for death wobble to effect the ride? Would you notice it the first time you take a corner after you installed a lift kit?
An improperly installed lift can have big problems right away.

DW is most common on shorter lifts with inexperienced installers who cut corners or have bad directions.

It is an absolute requirement that when the ride height is changed, all control arm and trackbar bolts be loosened and then not retorqued until the vehicle is back on the ground at the new ride height. This is necessary to make sure the control arm and trackbar bushings are pinched between the brackets in a neutral position instead of pre-loaded/twisting/binding at the wrong ride height. The twisting/binding leads to pre-mature bushing failure, which is a contributor to DW and non-DW shimmies/wobbles.

The other huge mistake that installers make is they don't use a properly calibrated torque wrench to tighten bolts after the install, and they don't retorque everything after the first 50 miles. After that, the bolts really should be retorqued at every oil change interval and after every major/long wheeling trip as part of basic maintenance.

It is very uncommon for a properly maintained stock or lifted JK to ever experience full on, rip your front end apart, violent DW.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:55 PM   #219
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Thank you, I just installed a 2.5" lift and now every vibration I feel has me under the Jeep, but nothing violent and it's nothing constant and the only vibration I feel is at 65mph so I think it's just tires.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:20 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Winterkid05
Thank you, I just installed a 2.5" lift and now every vibration I feel has me under the Jeep, but nothing violent and it's nothing constant and the only vibration I feel is at 65mph so I think it's just tires.
Tire/wheel based vibrations are most always speed dependent and easily repeatable.

Random shimmies and wobbles are most often something else that you could discover by completing the inspection checklist at the beginning of this thread.
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:19 AM   #221
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Hey can you post your link for the tj check list
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:10 PM   #222
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And just when I thought I was winning.

Coming down from the mountains yesterday , rounding a bend , two vehilcles coming toward me , and surprise surprise ,, Out of controll front end , totally spastic .....
Managed to miss the other cars though.

Never know when it going to sneak up on you ,,,,,, take care folks .. getting like russian roulette her.
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:21 PM   #223
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It is very uncommon for a properly maintained stock or lifted JK to ever experience full on, rip your front end apart, violent DW.
Agreed!

I've never had DW in over 4 years on my 5.5" lifted JK but I've seen "true" DW and it's scary how violent it really is. Most people just have a shimmy, true DW is looks like the jeep is gonna flip over!
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:21 PM   #224
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Hey Guys just saw this on autoblog and after a quick skim looks like it'll be interesting

Jeep Wrangler "Death Wobble" report prompts members of Congress to investigate
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:25 PM   #225
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Hey can you post your link for the tj check list
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/diag...ion-78090.html
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:17 AM   #226
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Does the death wobble only happen when u have a lift kit or bigger tires? Or is this a every jeep kind of thing?
I'm asking because I went off road last weekend, and all this week when I get up to about 60 mph I'm feeling a little wobble not much. I still have some mud on my jeep would this cause a wobble? Also is this covered in warranty?
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:19 PM   #227
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Is this on all jk's or just the pre 10's? I saw the article abotu congress investigating and it said something about the 07-10's. I bought a 12' and just wanted to know if I should be prepared for this.
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:37 PM   #228
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This is definatley recall material. It is curious considering dealerships are instructed to replace the steering shock (more $$), than replace the trackbar bolts with ones of a proper size.

After reading the Autoblog article, I've emailed my dealership on all the info on this thread and want to know what they are hearing, with a CC to Reid Bigland (Chrylser Canada President).

This really needs to be fixed by Jeep.

2012 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited, 600KM, stock across the board
DW events -> none
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:41 PM   #229
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Fixed by Jeep???

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Originally Posted by LrrrJeep View Post
This is definatley recall material. It is curious considering dealerships are instructed to replace the steering shock (more $$), than replace the trackbar bolts with ones of a proper size.

After reading the Autoblog article, I've emailed my dealership on all the info on this thread and want to know what they are hearing, with a CC to Reid Bigland (Chrylser Canada President).

This really needs to be fixed by Jeep.

2012 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited, 600KM, stock across the board
DW events -> none

Don't wait for Jeep to fix it ,, they were not interested here in Australia, and when I said I 'd seek legal advice , was told any future correspondence from them would be dealt with by their solicitor.

Friendly assistance indeed.

As for their interest, I took the jeep 2010 wrangler stock , to one of their dealers, got a bill for $700 for a service , and was told they couldn't find a problem .
Checking under the car , not one bit of evidence on any bolt having been checked .

100,000 klms , 3 year warranty, jeep has now done 70,00 klms , and 18 mths old .

The new world we live in .

I wonder if this gets posted!!!! My last one disappeared.
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:35 PM   #230
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Hate to jump in and change the subject but I need help before I drive this thing off a cliff!
I keep reading about this wheel "Dance"....but can't seem to find out how to exactly do it. I just got the AEV Module and programmed 35's checked the center and it was all good, but the dam ESP still kicked on as soon as I went around a turn. I love the jeep and really don't want to trade it in considering dropping $7grand on accessories in the last 6 months....Can anyone point me in the right direction to complete the steering wheel dance??
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:18 PM   #231
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This video shows a loose trackbar bolt:

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Old 03-22-2012, 05:07 PM   #232
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Hmm, theres a lot more than just a loose chassis end bolt there. The track looks to be flexing in the middle.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:22 PM   #233
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Hate to jump in and change the subject but I need help before I drive this thing off a cliff!
I keep reading about this wheel "Dance"....but can't seem to find out how to exactly do it. I just got the AEV Module and programmed 35's checked the center and it was all good, but the dam ESP still kicked on as soon as I went around a turn. I love the jeep and really don't want to trade it in considering dropping $7grand on accessories in the last 6 months....Can anyone point me in the right direction to complete the steering wheel dance??
You can always just cut the wire until you figure out the problem.

Or, you can install a switch:

ESP Kill Switch [Archive] - JKFreaks 2007-2012 Wrangler JK Forum
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:27 AM   #234
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Steering Wheel Dance..


Procedure To Turn ON (or OFF) The Permanent ESP Disable Feature:
a. Verify that the automatic transmission selector is in the “Park” position, and that a manual transmission is in neutral gear.
b. Start the vehicle engine and wait approximately five (5) seconds for the system bulb check to complete.
c. Shift the transfer case into the 4H range position and ensure parking brake is firmly set.
d. Turn the steering wheel until it is centred and the wheels are pointed straight ahead.
e. Turn the steering wheel one-half (˝) turn to the right (clockwise).
f. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds exactly then release and wait for chime.
g. Turn the steering wheel back to centre, then continue turning the steering wheel one-half (˝) turn to the left (counter clockwise).
h. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds exactly, release and wait for chime.
i. Turn the steering wheel back to centre.
j. Press and hold the “ESP OFF” button for 7 seconds, release and wait for chime.
k. Cycle the ignition switch to the “OFF” position.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:27 AM   #235
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Talking Off a cliff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwelsh00 View Post
Hate to jump in and change the subject but I need help before I drive this thing off a cliff!
I keep reading about this wheel "Dance"....but can't seem to find out how to exactly do it. I just got the AEV Module and programmed 35's checked the center and it was all good, but the dam ESP still kicked on as soon as I went around a turn. I love the jeep and really don't want to trade it in considering dropping $7grand on accessories in the last 6 months....Can anyone point me in the right direction to complete the steering wheel dance??

If you're not a lover of mechanics, or a diehard jeeper,, better to drive it off a cliff before it drives you nuts.
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:52 PM   #236
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Appreciate all the info and pics. Dance didn't work for me so I decided to install a toggle switch that will disengage the esp/abs. Works great, super happy. Have to get used to not haveing the brake assist on hills but that's no biggie.

Thanks again
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Old 03-24-2012, 06:00 PM   #237
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It's amazing how everyone seems to accept this a not a big drama.

These cars are put on the road with life threatening problems , and not a word from anyone .
Yet , if my windscreen has a scratch on it ,, I get an unroadworthy sticker.
Learn something new every day .
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:12 PM   #238
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I wanted to post this about steering stabilizers as I think there is some misconception as to what they do and what they are for.

A solid front axle design is inherently unstable, even when everything is tight and alignment is perfect. Any suspension movement results in a force that results in a steering angle change at both tires. The reverse is also true, any steering angle change results in a suspension move.

As you can see, these systems are linked. They will have a natural resonant frequency. There is nothing one can do about this, it is inherent in everything. The natural resonant frequency will vary from vehicle to vehicle based on a large number of things. Some common ones the user has some control over are tire stiffness (pressure & design) and component tightness (as addressed to great detail by planman). However, the resonant frequency is also determined by component stiffness from things like the trackbar design, bushings, axle weight, ride height, gearing, sway bars, pitman arms, drag links - you get the picture.

The system will tend to go unstable when the forcing function matches the systems natural frequency. Proper alignment, wheel balance and mechanical tightness help to ensure the forcing functions are small. However, the system is still likely to be excited under normal road speeds. Forcing functions can be bumps, unablance (there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced rotating assembly - it is impossible), looseness.

The steering stablizer is the only piece of equipment that acts only to dampen this system to ensure it does not become unstable. Many people will state that they have driven without a steering stabilizer just fine. I beleive them. The problem is that their vehicle may never hit a resonant frequency during normal driving due to variations that are two numerous to list.

So long story short, follow planman's tips. After everything is said and done, ensure your steering stabilizer is in good shape. It is the only thing ensuring your SFA stay critically damped should it become excited. Once excited, no amount of tightness will stop it (note it may not be full "death wobble" but it will cause damage that may lead to looseness and shimmy)

Note - This is why Chrysler "likes" this as a solution. I think they have other issue though as many here have pointed out.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:16 PM   #239
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Before anyone jumps the gun on my last post. A steering stabilizer can only due do so much. If there is looseness, the system vibration can exceed the dampening capabilities of the stabilizer (just like installing stiffer springs can overcome the damping of a stock shock). A broken stabilizer is evidence that something else is wrong resulting in excessive movement.

Planman's advice is sound. Follow it. He address the stabilizer inspection.
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Old 03-25-2012, 12:22 PM   #240
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And FWIW, IFS systems are almost not capable of actual death wobble since the it is extremely unlikely that both left and right suspenions assemblied have the same natural frequency (not to mention they do not see the same forcing function since they are separate).

A very bad vibration can occur due to looseness, broken parts, imbalance, etc, but it is not a true full system instability like a SFA can experience.

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