Heim End Components - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Jeep Wrangler Forum > JK Tech Forum

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 03-05-2014, 03:14 AM   #1
Jeeper
 
somis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Somis, CA
Posts: 703
Heim End Components

I am thinking of just bending tubing, welding bungs, and just making my own drag links, tie rods, control arms with Johnny Joints, etc.

I feel like all of these bushing components and Tie Rod ends are such junk when you put them onto a vehicle with anything over stock sized tires.

Is anyone else feeling the same way?

Race cars use them? Why not apply the same technology to our Jeeps?

From the research I have done

Cons:
Noisy
Possibly Unsafe if installed incorrectly

Pros:
Easy replacement
Solid feeling steering
Durability
Ability to replace on the trail or road


I do not understand why these big companies, (besides GenRight) do not put this technology to use.

I DO understand that the average bear likes bolt on stuff that works immediately, but at what cost? Premature failure for sure.

__________________
When in doubt...FLAT OUT!
somis is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-05-2014, 03:17 AM   #2
Jeeper
 
somis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Somis, CA
Posts: 703
Also thinking about making a track bar with a uni ball design.

I am so done with all this rubber bushing crap I could throw up.

Can you say Death Wobble?

__________________
When in doubt...FLAT OUT!
somis is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-05-2014, 01:33 PM   #3
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 87
The reason for the rubber bushings, according to engineers, is the reduction of metal fatigue over the long term. Without something to absorb the vibration, metal fatigues over time and leads to cracks and failure. This is especially critical in steering components that could cause a major accident in the event of failure. Racing cars aren't typically designed for 200,000 miles of intended life, nor are they driven on the highway typically. So they can be safely equipped with Heim joints. They often have tubular frames and different materials as well, which might affect the way these joint can be used.

So if your Jeep isn't driven on the highway, this could be a good choice. But if it is, for the sake of yourself, your family, and others who share the roadway, I would agree with engineers on this and wouldn't recommend Heims.

Good luck to you.
MikeinMinn is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-05-2014, 02:21 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
spinlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 37.9° N, 121.7° W
Posts: 3,721
You may not like the stock rubber bushings but they are far from crap given the design requirements of a stock Jeep like durability, ruggedness, maintenance free, ride quality and handling.

Big lifts, poorly installed lifts and worn out joints combined with big tires out of balance are the cause of DW.

Joints certainly do provide more articulation than the bushings but they sacrifice many of the qualities.
__________________
"A man has got to know his limitations."
H. Callahan
spinlock is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-05-2014, 03:00 PM   #5
Jeeper
 
Tweak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Keller, TX
Posts: 2,438
check out ruffstuff. excellent prices and lots of good deals on sets.

I would steer (lol) clear of heims in your steering, I dont believe there is a state that allows heims in steering. never heard of someone get busted for it but you may have issues with an inspection.

ruffstuff has GM 1 ton drag link ends, you can build a whole tie rod for about $120. they also have 1 ton drag link ends. for both you have to drill the knuckle to 7/8's and use an insert that they sell for like $8 each, tie rod insert is on their site but you have to call them for the drag link end insert.
Tweak is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-05-2014, 03:03 PM   #6
Jeeper
 
Tweak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Keller, TX
Posts: 2,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by somis View Post

I do not understand why these big companies, (besides GenRight) do not put this technology to use.
because it would be illegal and most people that need heims in steering build their own to suit the vehicle at half the cost.
Tweak is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-05-2014, 04:43 PM   #7
MallCrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36,108
X2 Ruff stuff

For conventional joints, I'd stick to the tried and true JJ or even RK's new joint.

Synergy makes a metal on metal 1 ton TRE which is bolt on, but well built.
kjeeper10 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-06-2014, 03:43 AM   #8
Jeeper
 
somis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Somis, CA
Posts: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by spinlock View Post
You may not like the stock rubber bushings but they are far from crap given the design requirements of a stock Jeep like durability, ruggedness, maintenance free, ride quality and handling.

Big lifts, poorly installed lifts and worn out joints combined with big tires out of balance are the cause of DW.

Joints certainly do provide more articulation than the bushings but they sacrifice many of the qualities.
I have had 2 drag links wear out in the matter of 6 months.
New OEM Tie rod lasted 4,000 miles on 35" tires.

With these products I am constantly questioning when they are suddenly going to fail. Never a good feeling.
I would just like components that are easily replaceable as well.
Not having to buy a whole new bar, just thread out the end, and replace.

I have gone through such a hassle and I feel like no one makes race quality stuff for a bolt on guy.
__________________
When in doubt...FLAT OUT!
somis is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-06-2014, 04:55 AM   #9
MallCrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36,108


http://www.synergymfg.com/Synergy-Su...l#.UxhS9Hi9LCQ

I don't recall any failures. Not just here but JKO/JK Freaks where their builds are more extreme.
kjeeper10 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-06-2014, 03:08 PM   #10
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 87
One follow up. I assumed he was referring to the rubber bushings in the track bar and control arms mostly since the stock TREs don't have rubber in them (none that I've ever heard about anyway).

The Synergy TREs don't use the stock style plastic or nylon sleeve that is used in the stock Ball joints as well. I've gone completely over to Synergy TREs and Ball Joints which have worked very well so far; about 20,000 miles.

But I figured that the track bar and control arms were the main topics of conversation with the track bar being the one that can affect steering (and everything else) in a failure. Using Heim Joints here is where there are some serious issues. Johnny Joints, stock bushings, Duroflex joints, hybrid setups etc. use rubber to help isolate frame and axle mounting points from vibration which eventually leads to failure. Heim Joints don't. The metal fatigue they cause is a problem that even welded on components suffer from. It would simply be a matter of time.

I totally sympathize, though. I've fought the vibration, wobble, and shimmy gremlins in my own rig. It's expensive and no fun at all.
MikeinMinn is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-07-2014, 01:18 AM   #11
Jeeper
 
spinlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 37.9° N, 121.7° W
Posts: 3,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by somis View Post
I have had 2 drag links wear out in the matter of 6 months.
New OEM Tie rod lasted 4,000 miles on 35" tires.

With these products I am constantly questioning when they are suddenly going to fail. Never a good feeling.
I would just like components that are easily replaceable as well.
Not having to buy a whole new bar, just thread out the end, and replace.

I have gone through such a hassle and I feel like no one makes race quality stuff for a bolt on guy.
If you wear out the joints that fast you must really work the suspension off road. That is the perfect case for using these mechanical joints: easy to replace or rebuild. Some owners just install and forget and the joints are not maintenance free.
__________________
"A man has got to know his limitations."
H. Callahan
spinlock is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-07-2014, 04:30 AM   #12
MallCrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36,108
My drag link to knuckle showed play and my tie rod was frozen.
I bought all new stock parts. This was at 50k with my 07.
Less than a year later the same joint was showing vertical play again. Replaced that one with a takeoff unit with a few miles. 5-6 months later I upgraded to Synergy. All my front end steering. Little wheeling so I chalked it up to 35's and poor roads in my area. Either that or the stock joints don't like bigger tires.
kjeeper10 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-08-2014, 06:23 PM   #13
Jeeper
 
somis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Somis, CA
Posts: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
My drag link to knuckle showed play and my tie rod was frozen.
I bought all new stock parts. This was at 50k with my 07.
Less than a year later the same joint was showing vertical play again. Replaced that one with a takeoff unit with a few miles. 5-6 months later I upgraded to Synergy. All my front end steering. Little wheeling so I chalked it up to 35's and poor roads in my area. Either that or the stock joints don't like bigger tires.
So are you saying that the synergy parts helped and are still in good working condition?

My whole beef and reason for posting this is I feel like the TRE and rubber bushings that come on most of these products we all run are worth next to nothing when put up against larger tires than stock. The 35" BFG A/T I was running went through just about 2 of every steering component including:

Pitman Arm (Currie)
Tie Rod (OEM)
Drag Link (OEM)
Ball Joints (OEM & Alloy USA)
Track Bar (Rubicon Express)
And although irrelevant a Wheel Bearing (upgraded to Timken)

I would like to UPGRADE the Trackbar with a UniBall Design or Johnny Joints on either end so there is no sloppy standard rubber bushing.
Johnny Joints have a great rep as you all know and should hold up to the abuse for a long time without replacement of any sort.

The Tie Rod I would ideally like to get some Reed knuckles and go Over The Knuckle with a Heim-to-Heim setup. Easy replacement anytime, anywhere. Easy to carry spares and can be safe if using misalignment spacers and safety washers so there is no way for the ball to fall out.

With the Drag link I would like to do a Heim on the Axle side but I am not sure if it is possible to do a Heim coming off of the Pitman.

I know I may have repeated myself but I am just frustrated with the troubles I have reoccurring with these parts and I don't feel comfortable spending hundreds possible thousands on more aftermarket parts that are using close to the same technology.

I know people recommend the Synergy TRE's for the larger tires, but I have stepped up to 37" BFG Projects (non DOT) and spend a lot of time with my best friends dad who builds and races Trophy Trucks. He tells me that I am crazy for running anything bigger than 33" tires with TRE's.

So once again tell me why I am crazy for thinking of going in this direction?
__________________
When in doubt...FLAT OUT!
somis is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-08-2014, 06:38 PM   #14
MallCrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36,108
Synergy everything steering related and don't look back.

Still running TF's track bar which I like, but want to run Synergy's sector shaft support, with that I need to run their track bar. My steering will be 100% synergy,

You run a drop pitman arm correct ? Lose it and flip the drag link, track bar brackets will steady up the axle from any exes lateral movement.
Then add either Synergy's, JKS's or even RSP's sector shaft brace.

The stock ball joints are absolute garbage. No secret here. The drag link TRE to knuckle is another joint that doesn't seem to last long,
Pitman arm and tie rod ends seem to do ok.


Have you looked into hydro assist ?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-3862288854.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	212.7 KB
ID:	849593  
kjeeper10 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-08-2014, 07:05 PM   #15
Jeeper
 
somis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Somis, CA
Posts: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
Synergy everything steering related and don't look back.
Still running TF's track bar which I like, but want to run Synergy's sector shaft support, with that I need to run their track bar. My steering will be 100% synergy,
You run a drop pitman arm correct ? Lose it and flip the drag link, track bar brackets will steady up the axle from any exes lateral movement.
Then add either Synergy's, JKS's or even RSP's sector shaft brace.
The stock ball joints are absolute garbage. No secret here. The drag link TRE to knuckle is another joint that doesn't seem to last long,
Pitman arm and tie rod ends seem to do ok.
Have you looked into hydro assist ?
I have looked into hydro assist but its not in the budget at the moment unless I come across a deal.

I had a DPA but sheared off some splines so no I am back to the stock PA at the moment and of course the handling is god awful.

I am just tired of having to order a complete new part and pay for all the wasted material. Like the Tie rod, instead of having 2 removable ends, it only has 1 removable end. So if you blow the other side you are screwed.

I am looking to delete all of these poor design flaws from my rig.
__________________
When in doubt...FLAT OUT!
somis is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-08-2014, 07:09 PM   #16
MallCrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36,108
Heim End Components

Are you still running a raised or dropped TB bracket with the stock pitman arm ? That will def cause handling issues,

I don't blame you.
I did catch your year but a 07-08 box can be tapped for hydro @ around $300-$400


Sent from AutoGuide.com App
kjeeper10 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-09-2014, 11:10 PM   #17
Jeeper
 
somis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Somis, CA
Posts: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
Are you still running a raised or dropped TB bracket with the stock pitman arm ? That will def cause handling issues,

I don't blame you.
I did catch your year but a 07-08 box can be tapped for hydro @ around $300-$400

Sent from AutoGuide.com App
Yes I'm still running the bracket. Waiting on funds to drill the knuckle and make my own flipped drag link
__________________
When in doubt...FLAT OUT!
somis is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-10-2014, 04:11 AM   #18
MallCrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by somis View Post
Yes I'm still running the bracket. Waiting on funds to drill the knuckle and make my own flipped drag link
Your geometry is way out of whack then. Just remove the bracket until you save up for the flip ?
kjeeper10 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-10-2014, 06:29 AM   #19
Jeeper
 
somis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Somis, CA
Posts: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post

Your geometry is way out of whack then. Just remove the bracket until you save up for the flip ?
It's all welded on. I can live with the handling for a few more weeks
__________________
When in doubt...FLAT OUT!
somis is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-10-2014, 07:22 PM   #20
MallCrawler

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
kjeeper10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 36,108
Have you seem the new RK ends ?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-3753253173.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	175.0 KB
ID:	857505  

kjeeper10 is online now   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Download our Mobile App

» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:22 AM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC