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Old 09-24-2013, 06:28 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESP View Post
I never had my numbers on the last jeep but I'm sure it was off too. It drove fine after the 2.5 for about a year or so but I wheeled it and smacked on some 35s and that's when problems started showing up with steering. Hard to say which got er there.
That's right, you grabbed some Synergy stuff. Tie rod and drag link.

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Old 09-24-2013, 09:52 PM   #32
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Yes and they were really great pieces. In retrospect, I should have just waited because alas...I traded the jeep in about 2 weeks later and it was really just money down the drain. If I had that $400 or so now, I would be getting some SRC sliders or a new bumper on the 13!

Of course 12 + sets of tires on the last jeep wasn't cheap either.

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Old 09-24-2013, 10:24 PM   #33
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Hi there, I was just wondering... is reprogramming using a procal or similar device necessary when adding 2.5" lift and 35" tires for the Jeep to be able to run correctly? (manual tranny, and I understand speedo and tpms would be out, but is there anything computer-wise that would prevent me from traveling to a shop to have the programming done?)

Do most guys buy a procal or have a shop do the reprogramming?

Is a procal something that would be used more than on one occasion if there were no other suspension/driveline/tire size changes?

Thank you
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by FXnut View Post
Hi there, I was just wondering... is reprogramming using a procal or similar device necessary when adding 2.5" lift and 35" tires for the Jeep to be able to run correctly? (manual tranny, and I understand speedo and tpms would be out, but is there anything computer-wise that would prevent me from traveling to a shop to have the programming done?) Do most guys buy a procal or have a shop do the reprogramming? Is a procal something that would be used more than on one occasion if there were no other suspension/driveline/tire size changes? Thank you
Procal is to set for tire diameter am speedo/odo plus some other things. A dealership can do THE Spe/odo but it will cost you. Yes you can keep using it but I believe it can only be used on one jeep at a time.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:49 AM   #35
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^ I was running 3 caster and the jeep drive like ass. No two jeeps are the same. How are your roads ? Roads around here are garbage. Even the highway is rough going.
That would make a difference as well.
The roads here are pretty good. I did have a worn ball joint for a while and my steering was a little loose at that point, but once it was replaced, my front end aligned and toe set my steering is pretty tight again.

One thing I have noticed is a little steering wheel wiggle between 45-55 mph, but I believe that is due to tire balancing and I'm planning on heading back into Discount Tire this week and have them rebalance my tires. I'm running GY Duratracs and I've heard they can sometimes be a pain to balance properly.

I've considered adding a set of geometry correction brackets. Now that you've tried both the AEV and Rancho geo brackets which do you prefer? How much more caster do you believe each would give me? I wouldn't want to add so much more caster that I start having drive line vibrations as I'm still running the stock front driveshaft. Thanks.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:33 AM   #36
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The roads here are pretty good. I did have a worn ball joint for a while and my steering was a little loose at that point, but once it was replaced, my front end aligned and toe set my steering is pretty tight again. One thing I have noticed is a little steering wheel wiggle between 45-55 mph, but I believe that is due to tire balancing and I'm planning on heading back into Discount Tire this week and have them rebalance my tires. I'm running GY Duratracs and I've heard they can sometimes be a pain to balance properly. I've considered adding a set of geometry correction brackets. Now that you've tried both the AEV and Rancho geo brackets which do you prefer? How much more caster do you believe each would give me? I wouldn't want to add so much more caster that I start having drive line vibrations as I'm still running the stock front driveshaft. Thanks.
Exact lift amount total and front ?
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:14 AM   #37
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Dumb question I am sure but I am new to the jeep world. Is BB some body lift?
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:16 AM   #38
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Dumb question I am sure but I am new to the jeep world. Is BB some body lift?
We all were at some point ...

Budget boost. Spacers installed on top of the coils for lift.

Body lift = BL
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:19 PM   #39
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Exact lift amount total and front ?
The total lift is supposed to be 2.5". So I would expect 3" in the front and 2" in the back (to adjust for the factor rake).

From the top of the spring perch flat edge to the edge of the spring tower back side I get 11-7/8"

From the center of the shock bolt to the bottom side of the shock tower where rubber bushing touches I get 21"

That is exactly 2.5" difference for both from the stock jeep illustration figures of 9-3/8" and 18-1/2". So it would appear I only have 2.5" of lift in the front.

Do you have a similar illustration for measurements in the rear?
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Old 09-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #40
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The total lift is supposed to be 2.5". So I would expect 3" in the front and 2" in the back (to adjust for the factor rake). From the top of the spring perch flat edge to the edge of the spring tower back side I get 11-7/8" From the center of the shock bolt to the bottom side of the shock tower where rubber bushing touches I get 21" That is exactly 2.5" difference for both from the stock jeep illustration figures of 9-3/8" and 18-1/2". So it would appear I only have 2.5" of lift in the front. Do you have a similar illustration for measurements in the rear?
No because that diagram is for use installing the brackets.
201/4 front and 211/4 rear from mid wheel to bottom flare I confirmed to be good stock measurements as well.
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Old 09-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by kjeeper10 View Post
No because that diagram is for use installing the brackets.
201/4 front and 211/4 rear from mid wheel to bottom flare I confirmed to be good stock measurements as well.
Which geo bracket installations were they for? AEV or Rancho?

Do you have a link to them?
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Old 09-25-2013, 06:10 PM   #42
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AEV

Google "AEV correction brackets" on the AEV site there's a PDF for the instructions which shows the diagram.

There's 3 holes on AEV's brackets. The 2.5 hole is set to give a little caster bump. The 4.5 (top) hole is set to not allow as much rotation for caster. Caster should remain the same for 2.5 - 3.5 and 4.5 being the holes are not set in the same locations. I believe AEV targets 4.5 or so.

The Rancho brackets only have one hole. Iirc is the same as AEV's middle 3,5
Not having the other 2 holes the caster will change at different lift heights.

Rancho can correct me if in wrong, but I believe (like stock) as you lift caster decreases. So... At 2.5 you will have more caster then somebody at 3.5 (me -4* ish)

Not a bad thing because the higher you go caster can actually hurt you. 6* at 2.5 is high but ok. At 3.5" the driveshaft angle would be pushing its limits.
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Old 09-25-2013, 10:27 PM   #43
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I'm new to the jeep world. I don't do any off roading. I just want the off road look on a 3000 budget. I purchased 18 in rockstar rims. Not sure on tire size or brand. And if I will need a lift. Please help
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:55 AM   #44
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I'm new to the jeep world. I don't do any off roading. I just want the off road look on a 3000 budget. I purchased 18 in rockstar rims. Not sure on tire size or brand. And if I will need a lift. Please help
Including tires ? $3000 is a good chunk of change. Not a bad thing but a lot to spend for look over function. Is the 3k just for a lift, what size tire and how high you want to go?
Fwiw .. A 35" tire will fit comfortably under 2.5"
A 33" will fit with no lift at all.
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:03 AM   #45
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AEV

Google "AEV correction brackets" on the AEV site there's a PDF for the instructions which shows the diagram.

There's 3 holes on AEV's brackets. The 2.5 hole is set to give a little caster bump. The 4.5 (top) hole is set to not allow as much rotation for caster. Caster should remain the same for 2.5 - 3.5 and 4.5 being the holes are not set in the same locations. I believe AEV targets 4.5 or so.

The Rancho brackets only have one hole. Iirc is the same as AEV's middle 3,5
Not having the other 2 holes the caster will change at different lift heights.

Rancho can correct me if in wrong, but I believe (like stock) as you lift caster decreases. So... At 2.5 you will have more caster then somebody at 3.5 (me -4* ish)

Not a bad thing because the higher you go caster can actually hurt you. 6* at 2.5 is high but ok. At 3.5" the driveshaft angle would be pushing its limits.
Thanks for all the details. I'm guessing I would use the 2.5" hole on the AEV bracket and that would hopefully bring me back up to around 4 something degrees of caster. I actually like the design of the Rancho brackets better, but am afraid they may be too much for my 2.5" of lift.

How long will it take me to install the AEV brackets by myself? Just read the instructions and they said to work on one side at a time. Did you have to pry your exhaust out of the way to install them? That sounds like a pain.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:36 AM   #46
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Thanks for all the details. I'm guessing I would use the 2.5" hole on the AEV bracket and that would hopefully bring me back up to around 4 something degrees of caster. I actually like the design of the Rancho brackets better, but am afraid they may be too much for my 2.5" of lift. How long will it take me to install the AEV brackets by myself? Just read the instructions and they said to work on one side at a time. Did you have to pry your exhaust out of the way to install them? That sounds like a pain.
Use a Sawsall. We didn't have one and used a hand saw. I was unable to pry it. 2 people it took longer. The other person sometimes can Just get in the way. Me personally, I am more focused by myself.

switching over to the Rancho brackets took me less then a hour to install.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:01 AM   #47
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Front lift

I was doing some reading and saw a reference to a 2" front lift for a 4 dr jk and with the 0 rims they could fit 34" tires and level the ride for a weekend warrior like my self . no big mud or rock climbing.. Please help

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Old 09-28-2013, 11:23 AM   #48
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I was doing some reading and saw a reference to a 2" front lift for a 4 dr jk and with the 0 rims they could fit 34" tires and level the ride for a weekend warrior like my self . no big mud or rock climbing.. Please help
Why not go with a 33" w/ no lift ? OR.... i think what you saw was a leveling kit using spacers. Usually 2" front and 1" rear. Enough to level the jeep and provide a small lift.

Assuming 0 offset ? You want a wheel regardless of diameter to have 4.5 or less back spacing.
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:51 AM   #49
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SO I keep going back n forth on this and can't decide. I see from a lot of the more experienced jeepers that you can run 33's (in my case I was looking at DT so I guess closer to 32.5) without a lift? But if I did want to do some mild off-road i assume a small lift would still be recommended?

Also keep reading that most lifts are "over" (2.5 is really closer to 3, or the TF 1.5 coils are closer to 2 front and 1 rear) to compensate for weight?

So confusing!! How much weight to lower a lift back to its advertised height?

If I want DT 285/70r17 with the right wheels, front and rear bumpers and rockers would a TF 1.5 perf coil lift and rancho 9000's still be enough lift?
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:00 PM   #50
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Yes coils are rated for weight. TF offers a 2 and 4 door coil which will put you closer to advertised height. RK does not .. So a 2 door averages about 1" more. Regardless a light weight stock jeep will be higher.

Most kits remove the factory rake and that's the reason for more height up front.

33's will work as long as the wheels have 4.5 backspacing or less. Will it rub heavily flexed ? Most likely yes. A small leveling kit will help.
Another option is flat or trimmed factory flares.
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:06 PM   #51
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Yes coils are rated for weight. TF offers a 2 and 4 door coil which will put you closer to advertised height. RK does not .. So a 2 door averages about 1" more. Regardless a light weight stock jeep will be higher.

Most kits remove the factory rake and that's the reason for more height up front.

33's will work as long as the wheels have 4.5 backspacing or less. Will it rub heavily flexed ? Most likely yes. A small leveling kit will help.
Another option is flat or trimmed factory flares.
So is their a "rule of thumb" as far as X amount of added weight will reduce height of lift by Y amount? Or is it just put lift on, add weight, if its to low add more lift? I was trying to stay as low as possible so I didn't have issues but still have some flex off-road?

Kinda thinking the TF 1.5 mite not cut it with the added weight?
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Old 09-28-2013, 12:10 PM   #52
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So is their a "rule of thumb" as far as X amount of added weight will reduce height of lift by Y amount? Or is it just put lift on, add weight, if its to low add more lift? I was trying to stay as low as possible so I didn't have issues but still have some flex off-road? Kinda thinking the TF 1.5 mite not cut it with the added weight?
Not really .... I know TF warranties their coils. If for any reason the coils sag below advertised height. They will replace them.
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Old 09-28-2013, 02:40 PM   #53
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Here's the quick and dirty

Caster-Adding lift height lowers the caster. Caster angle is a imaginary line that crosses through the ball joints. Positive caster would be a line drawn forward of the center line w/ the lower balljoints I front of the upper. Caster puts a downward force on the axle making the easy for the steering wheel to return to center. Stock Jk has around 4* caster and is light compared to other models. Tj for example FSM shows around 7*
A 4" lift, you might see up to a 2* loss in caster. Less caster (closer to 0*) can cause the overall steering feel to be light or flighty at speed.
At what point you want to address it is up to you. Most people will agree that, at 3" you will likely want to.
Fix/options are Cam Bolts Drop Brackets, longer/shorter Fixed Control Arms, Adjustable control arms, cut and rotating the C's or a aftermarket housing like Prorock or TF.

Steering wheel of center. "Why is my traction control light flashing ?" Easy fix. Adjust your steering wheel back to center using the drag link.

Toe-no change but ideally you want 1/8 or 1/16 in

Camber-no change. If camber is out of spec you have bigger problems. Bent axle tube and/or C or possible balljoint issue.

Control arms (short) if you opt for arms, get adjustables. Upper or lower, it's your choice (they do the exact same thing( just backwards from each other). front lower and rear upper will give the minimum adjustability for pinion/caster if on a budget of working in steps. If you find that you want to move an entire axle forward/backward in the wheel well, you will need both upper and lowers. Having all 8 arms is ideally what is needed for caster/pinion and wheelbase.

Bumpsteer- bumpsteer is not a shimmy or beginnings of DW. Bumpsteer is a condition caused by the track bar and drag link no longer operating in the correct arc. As you go over a bump with one tire the jeep will kind of steer itself and you will feel it in the steering wheel. Fix - Highsteer kit. Raising the track bar and flipping the drag link is the best way to fix this by returning the geometry back to normal. There are other ways to go about this but not recommended.

Roll centers. Front and rear as the body is raised the roll centers are effected causing sloppy handling around corners. Most kits in the 2.5+ range will address the rear only which is fine. Ideally you want the front and back to match.

Axles off center (track bars) can be as much as 1/2" (maybe more) at 3-4".
TB brackets will lesson the angle and somewhat center the axles. In most cases a adjustable track bar (F/B) is needed to return the axles back to center.

Driveshafts- Adding lift height steepens the angles that the driveshafts run at. On the shorter wheelbase 2doors (esp the rear) they get steep quick.
Adding longer shocks causes the axles to droop further, disconnecting the swaybar links-even more. If the driveshaft doesn't contact the exhaust crossover pipe the cv will eventually fail.
Fixes-Exhaust spacers/y-pipes/limit straps or a smaller ID driveshaft.
There is no magic number that says you will or will not have issues at xx height, too many variables. So just make a habit of crawling underneath and looking for split boots and spitting grease.
When you do decide to swap out driveshafts, adjustable arms are now a must .The joints on the aftermarket shafts like different angles then the stock shafts. **note** In many cases, running a taller lift and aftermarket Drive shaft, some folks who have to give up caster for pinion to keep the TC from exploding. No choice but to give up drivability for pinion angle for a safe u-joint angle of operation. Or drop $5k on a aftermarket housing with caster built in.

Death wobble - lets hope not

The general consensus is 2.5" is "safe" and you don't necessarily need CA's/TB's and all that good stuff. Yes this is true BUT. Aftermarket coils are designed not to sag under heavy weight. Some note that (listed heights are with a fully outfitted jeep). W/O bumpers, a winch, tire carrier, armor etc, it's not uncommon for a 2.5" lift to give you 1" or more in height.

This is only the basics. So next time you see a sweet 4" lift for $300-$400 with only coils shocks and maybe cam bolts -you might want to think about it. There's so much more involved.



Comments, feel free to ask questions? I posted to help folks understand
You obviously know your stuff......so here is a quest for a new jk owner-previously had a CJ and a YJ. I noticed while offroading all this computer aid stuff really effects just good ol fashion wheel spin-Any suggestions? Also when reversing even in a simple incline like my drive way there is alot of resistance-could this be the hill assist?
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Old 09-28-2013, 02:56 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ctvenegas View Post
You obviously know your stuff......so here is a quest for a new jk owner-previously had a CJ and a YJ. I noticed while offroading all this computer aid stuff really effects just good ol fashion wheel spin-Any suggestions? Also when reversing even in a simple incline like my drive way there is alot of resistance-could this be the hill assist?
I'm not really familiar with HSA having a 07 but iirc and can be shut off or learn how to use it. It can be very useful off road but annoying on. ESP can be shut off in 4 low for wheel spin in sand or when needed. Some still have issues and wire in a toggle switch or the steering wheel dance to defeat completely.
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:16 PM   #55
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hey yall. New to all this and just trying to figure things out. I don't want much of a lift just about 2.5 maybe I found a set of coil spacers online for a pretty good price they are the Budget Boost ones. Has anyone had any trouble with them?
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:29 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by MonsterTJ View Post
hey yall. New to all this and just trying to figure things out. I don't want much of a lift just about 2.5 maybe I found a set of coil spacers online for a pretty good price they are the Budget Boost ones. Has anyone had any trouble with them?
nothing wrong with spacers. You are going to want longer rear sway bar links (stock rear to the front) I recommend longer shocks or extensions and bumps top extensions.
Edit: realized you are driving a Tj. Not sure if the stock sway bar links will work on the front like the Jk. Might want to look into that.
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:05 PM   #57
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No I said right its for my wife's jk I have a tj, the lift she is referring to comes with the 4 spacers and bump stop extensions ill have to look into the sway bar links
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:14 PM   #58
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No I said right its for my wife's jk I have a tj, the lift she is referring to comes with the 4 spacers and bump stop extensions ill have to look into the sway bar links
Cool
Check out Teraflex's BB. Look what's included in that kit.
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:58 PM   #59
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I didnt realize I had posted from his you must of been thinking thats not a jk in the pic...I like the bb kit just need to find the other part...
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:22 PM   #60
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