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So how well does this traction control work???

9K views 47 replies 14 participants last post by  Welding Rod 
#1 ·
I have a 2014 Wrangler Unlimited and it has Traction Control. I have no idea how well this works i.e. snow, ice, off-road in mud, on a hill, etc. Anybody have any experience with the traction control?

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
Best advice is go out and try it. Also read your owners manual about how to turn the traction control off and part off. Ill admit that it is rather impressive and much better than the ATRAC on my previous FJ Cruiser. Granted the traction control is no exception to say a full locker but it works quite well
 
#3 ·
Best advice is go out and try it.
Don't I wish! Unfortunately, I don't have a convenient place to try it - yet - hopefully that will change before long.

...Ill admit that it is rather impressive and much better than the ATRAC on my previous FJ Cruiser. Granted the traction control is no exception to say a full locker but it works quite well
Interesting, thanks!
 
#4 ·
Yes....go try it (if you can find some snow or ice).


I personally hate traction control devices....but with good tires, it can help get you going.
 
#6 ·
Are you referring to the traction control, or the brake assist thing that helps if one of your wheels has no traction? ( Brake lock diff or soemthing like that )
The traction control feels pretty standard to me. On the ice it came on quite frequently.
A lot of people use the same term for the two systems....and they are actually part of the same system.

But yes, BLD (Brake Lock Differential) has different programming than traction control....even if they operate the same way. BLD is the more aggressive off-road version of traction control.

Then you get into TCS vs ESP vs ERM vs BLD etc....
 
#7 ·
they work great in the city not so great in a mud hole where you want to spin to clean the tread.....Also I have found that some times pulling out on a low traction side road on to a main road can be a drag as the vehicle wants to bog instead of accelerate.
 
#8 ·
they work great in the city not so great in a mud hole where you want to spin to clean the tread.....Also I have found that some times pulling out on a low traction side road on to a main road can be a drag as the vehicle wants to bog instead of accelerate.
That is without a doubt my #1 absolute hatred of traction control....and that bogging down came close to getting me in an accident several times in my Libby. The traction control would kick in and kill my momentum.
 
#10 ·
not so great in a mud hole where you want to spin to clean the tread
id say it depends on the situation your in. keep in mind you can turn the traction control off or partly off for greater wheel spin. take this video for example. this was a couple weeks ago on a goof off kinda sunday. the rover was on street tires and flat out stuck, the geo was on 31" tsl, and my JK not aired down, open diffs, with the factory traction control, and in low range (3.23 gears on 35" tires so everything is low range for me until i regear) you can see that all four tires are pulling on mine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRDnswpKx3Y
 
#45 · (Edited)
id say it depends on the situation your in. keep in mind you can turn the traction control off or partly off for greater wheel spin. take this video for example. this was a couple weeks ago on a goof off kinda sunday. the rover was on street tires and flat out stuck, the geo was on 31" tsl, and my JK not aired down, open diffs, with the factory traction control, and in low range (3.23 gears on 35" tires so everything is low range for me until i regear) you can see that all four tires are pulling on mine

Sanderson wv, daisy chain Rover pull 3/30/14 - YouTube
That's a great Jeep commercial. :D
 
#11 ·
pretty sure 4lo kills the traction control or at least it does on the rubicons.

all should spin as long as the traction is pretty much the same which looked like was the case.
 
#14 ·
ESC is stability (keeps you from sliding/spinning side ways)
TCS is traction (makes sure both wheels on a given axle spin at the same speed)

The "limited slip" feature they describe is BLD, which has its own algorithm for off-road use.

In a Rubi, when the lockers are engaged, the render BLD useless.
 
#18 ·
Good, so now I know I'm not insane. Someone else here's it. Son doesn't count, same DNA ;)
 
#19 ·
Guys, I think there's some confusion about this TC (Traction Control) 'bog' thing. Let's say we don't have TC first. If we lose traction on one wheel and it's essentially free spinning, we are 'bogged' right then. If we're pulling off from a stop and one wheel free spins, we won't go anywhere, so again we're bogged.

What I'm thinking here is that the TC is getting blamed for something that it didn't cause for, and it is in fact, trying to overcome the problem. I think we lose traction on one wheel, the vehicle slows down, as it would even without TC, and we look down and see the TC engaged and blame the TC for the 'bog' when the bog was actually caused by the loss of traction.

Actually TC does cause a bog, but once understood, I think it can be easily resolved. The braking of the spinning wheel absorbs engine power/torque, so yes the vehicle is going to slow down UNLESS, we then respond with more power, as indicated in this video:

This video compares open diffs without TC, open diffs with TC, and then lockers. Of course we know the lockers are going to perform the best, but this is an actual indication of performance - pretty interesting! Might as well skip to the 1:00 mark for the actual test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNFacsKnswM

Since I started this thread, found some demo vids that are helpful and pretty much answered my questions about TC's effectiveness.

E.g. I saw one YT vid where a guy blamed TC for a buddy failing to climb a 'loose' hill. He talked about the loss of power. What makes the TC kick in is the detection of wheel spin. If we have wheel spin we have already lost power and traction - the TC hasn't even kicked in yet! So probably, this guy was on a hill that his open diffs wouldn't climb and when it wouldn't, the Jeep stopped due to loss of traction, the TC tried to improve traction and the guy looks down and sees the TC engaged and blames the TC.

The TC has to detect the spinning wheel and activate the brake on that side in an attempt to direct power to the non-spinning wheel. It just seems to me like he was already in the failure mode when the TC kicked in and tried to improve traction.

Here are a couple of vids on YT that demonstrate TC. In this one, there's a lot of 'demo time' showing conventional open diffs trying to negotiate the hill unsuccessfully and then at 2:20 it shows a Jeep with TC and you can clearly see the TC engages and reduces wheel spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_mJiYlIIpE

This is an excellent demo of the TC in action. Notice in his brief description about how TC works, there is no mention of throttle modulation, but I think I read somewhere it may modulate the throttle some as well. Keep in mind this is circa 2007 and the control algorithm could be improved by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv2DKDinfj0

and another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd8zTdo_MJM

There's another that actually measured the progress of a open, TC, and locker, but I couldn't find it this morning.

What I get from all this is that TC is likely getting blamed for traction/power loss that it had nothing to do with. The power/traction is lost before the TC can go active. In an article by a Jeep engineer, "Jeep Brake Traction Control Explained" he makes no mention of the throttle being reduced by the TC. In fact, it would be counter-productive. He explains in the article that one drawback of TC is that it requires twice as much torque to drive the opposite wheel in order to overcome the braking on the spinning wheel. That may explain that 'bogging' sense. You just push the accelerator more to provide more torque.

It appears, and corroborated by that elusive video I can't find, that TC performance lies just about half way between open diffs and lockers.

TC is reactive. I.e. it reacts to an existing, detected condidtion of wheel spin, be it the dreaded diagonal trap or simply low traction on one wheel. Sometimes TC is successful and sometimes it's too late because we're already stopped or slowed to a point that recovery is not possible.

Lockers are preventive and are not reactive to an existing condition.

My conclusion is that TC generally improves traction, especially better than an open diff, but it is not a substitute, nor as effective as lockers. But if one is not going to be doing hard core off-roading, the TC might save the cost of a locker(s).
 
#20 ·
It doesn't have to be off road or snow or ice to induce the TC....however FWIW the Bog that we feel comes from our being "Used to" the fact that during a "Hard accelaration", we expect a little wheel spin, and know that it will pass and we will keep moving. And that even when that wheel is spinning we are moving and gaining speed. So once that TC kicks on, yes it truly does "slow down" bog may be the wrong term for it.

My experience comes from driving my TJ probably 65-70% of the time to work. And when leaving the industrial complex you are pulling on to a fairly busy highway, in a "cold" vehicle at rush hour, and crossing 2 East bound lanes a North turn lane and at least a South turn lane, into a west bound lane (possibly 2 West bound lanes your choice). With the winter we had, there is still plenty of gravel/ sand, loose debris on the pavement that traction can be "sketchy" depending where you put the skinny pedal down. I am used to it in the TJ. Drove the '12 JK the other day and yep TC kicked on for (to me no reason I could "feel") but can only assume there had been some wheel slip, in the TJ no big deal no TC, but yeah gave me a "Huh didn't expect that" moment.
 
#21 ·
That sounds right on to me. TC wasn't designed just for off-road. It was designed to detect same axle wheel speed differences which it interprets as wheel slip - which is what it is.

Possibly in the TJ you were getting wheel spin, but not so much that it slowed the opposite wheel very much. In the same situation with TC, it would detect the difference in wheel speed and apply some brake to even up the wheel speed. That would result in a slow down, but if/when we realize that's normal operation, we can simply apply more acceleration if we need to.

That situation may be a trade off between high acceleration in a turning condition and maximizing traction with wheels on surfaces of different traction.

And, maybe in the case you described an open diff would work better; but in that case the open diff would also work better than a locker. The locker having the problem of tending to drive in a straight line.
 
#22 ·
@Tangle,
I think BLD is being consfused with traction control.

TCS controls wheel spin on an axle, ESP keeps you from going sidways, fishtailing etc. In slick conditions, (especially when turning on to a fast moving road), ESP can actually cut power to your engine. Your can floor it, but it won't matter....the computer has taken over. That is bogging down. No wheel spin, no RPM's, nothing except the chatter of the brakes as you creep along.

As jp2611 stated, we expect some wheelspin under hard accerleration in certain conditions, but we also expect to get through it. The bogging down is when traction control steps in and applies the brakes (sometimes ESC kills your power). That is where the situation can get dangerous because your momentum has been killed right as you've pulled out into fast moving traffic.

In your original post, did you mean BLD instead of traction control?
 
#23 ·
Well, I don't know. My Wrangler has Traction Control. After reading the article by the Jeep engineer, traction control and BLD are one in the same. There is no mention that TC reduces the throttle.

TC doesn't exactly "apply the brakes", it gradually applies a brake only on the wheel that is slipping. Probably a more accurate description is TC modulates the brake to force power to the opposite wheel. Like ABS, it likely applies and releases the brake to see if traction is restored.

TC doesn't care if both wheels are spinning, all it cares about is that they are spin at the same speed. If we had our Jeep on ice and both wheels on the same axle were spinning the same speed, but neither had traction, TC would not activate.

TC may be getting blamed for what ESC is doing.
 
#24 ·
This scary loss of power at high acceleration sounds more likely due entirely to ESC. The ESC measures wheel speed and engine speed to see if the wheels are spinning faster than they should be. If they are, it does lighten the throttle, which is the correct response under some conditions.

E.g. if we are on a slippery surface on a camber and both rear wheels start slipping, the rear end will slide down the camber. The correct response is to lighten up on the accelerator to try to get the wheels to regain traction. ESC does that. However, in some cases this response is not desirable - the very thing described about leaving the plant and entering into fast traffic. Under those conditions wheel spin may be acceptable, but the ESC has no way to know that so it does it's thing to slow down the wheels.

Not saying that's a good thing; it is sometimes and sometimes it isn't. But what I was asking about is TC specifically which, as best as I can tell, does not change the throttle setting.

The reason I was asking about TC is for low range traction off road. I'm considering buying front and rear lockers, but TC may be enough for my applications. Certainly not as good as lockers, but better than open diffs. It looks like it would cost about $2500 to get both front and rear lockers (E-Lockers) installed.
 
#26 ·
TC is not effective off raod. AS mentioned its dead once your in 4LO. If you have Limited Slip, this is not effected. You really only benefit(or not) on the street.

Its not limited slip. Its meant to control slipping by applying the brakes to the spinning tire.

TC is why in the 2012 (Automatic )and up JK's you can not run a detroit or Yukon Grizzly locker in the rear.

I had the Grizzly and randomly my jeep would go into limp mode. After about 2 weeks of calling the shop who installed it, Jeep, and forums, I find out its a known issue with the auto lockers.

When you are turning in a parking lot or turning a corner the the TC would be confused as the auto locker would engage and disengae in the turn.

his would send the tranny in to panic mode and protect itself in limp mode.

When I was on the trails it wasnt an issue as TC is not active. I switched to the Elocker and my problems went away.
 
#27 ·
TC is not effective off raod. AS mentioned its dead once your in 4LO. If you have Limited Slip, this is not effected. You really only benefit(or not) on the street.
I believe it's the ESC that's inactive in low range. In all the Jeep videos they show the TC working in low range and it is effective. In another video by ARB, they show the TC to be far more effective than open diffs and they specifically state that they are in low range.

...Its not limited slip. Its meant to control slipping by applying the brakes to the spinning tire.
Exactly. But that does limit slip.

...TC is why in the 2012 (Automatic )and up JK's you can not run a detroit or Yukon Grizzly locker in the rear.
The TC might need to be disabled for that, but that's not a problem.

I don't have auto lockers, just TC.

...When I was on the trails it wasnt an issue as TC is not active. I switched to the Elocker and my problems went away.
TC is active on the trails as demonstrated in various videos about TC. Watch some of the vids I linked and you will see they are active off road and in low range. It is the ESC that is deactivated in low range.
 
#28 ·
All those video but one are not jeeps. So who knows how the TC works on those manufactures. In the video with the 2007 Jeep I really think hes talking about his limited slip.

So why have limited slip if all jeeps have TC?

going from the owners manual pdf file

"when in ESC Off mode, ESC and TCS, except for the "limited slip" feature described in the TCS section, are turned off."
This says TC is off when ESC is off EXCEPT Limited Slip which is NOT TC!! Two different animals.

Detroit, Yukon, and Jeep verfied that TC is NOT on in 4LO which is why the limp mode with the auto locker doesnt rear its ugly head.
 
#29 ·
BTW you can not permantely disable TC on the street. Even if i turned it off with the button I still got limp mode.

I found this in another thread on this forum:

It's explained in depth in your manual, which you can download and search off of the Jeep Owners website.

Traction control works on all four wheels, unless you either turn it off (partially or completely . . . read the manual) or put the Jeep into 4Lo. Even in 4Lo or with the traction control off however, the Jeep's "brake lock differential" still operates to simulate an LSD on the front and rear.

If you have a real LSD in the rear that does its job, the brake lock differential will presumably not be triggered very much. Regardless, it won't hurt the LSD.
 
#30 ·
From the owners manual:
ESC Off​
This is the normal operating mode for ESC in 4L range.
Whenever the vehicle is started in 4L range, or the
transfer case (if equipped) is shifted from 4H range or
NEUTRAL to 4L range, the ESC system will be in this
mode. In 4L range, ESC and TCS, except for the “limited
slip” feature described in the TCS section, are turned off
until the vehicle reaches a speed of 40 mph (64 km/h). At
40 mph (64 km/h), the normal ESC stability function
returns but TCS remains off. When the vehicle speed
drops below 35 mph (56 km/h), the ESC system shuts off.
The ESC is off at low vehicle speeds in 4L range so that it
will not interfere with off-road driving, but the ESC
function returns to provide the stability feature at speeds
above 40 mph (64 km/h). The “ESC Activation/
Malfunction Indicator Light” will always be illuminated​
in 4L range when ESC is off.

----------------------
ESC and TCS are turned off...with the exception of the limited slip function under TCS. That fuction is the off-road programming known as BLD....which differs from the on road programming of normal TCS.
 
#32 ·
From the owners manual:
ESC Off
This is the normal operating mode for ESC in 4L range.
Whenever the vehicle is started in 4L range, or the
transfer case (if equipped) is shifted from 4H range or
NEUTRAL to 4L range, the ESC system will be in this
mode. In 4L range, ESC and TCS, except for the “limited
slip” feature described in the TCS section, are turned off
until the vehicle reaches a speed of 40 mph (64 km/h). At
40 mph (64 km/h), the normal ESC stability function
returns but TCS remains off. When the vehicle speed
drops below 35 mph (56 km/h), the ESC system shuts off.
The ESC is off at low vehicle speeds in 4L range so that it
will not interfere with off-road driving, but the ESC
function returns to provide the stability feature at speeds
above 40 mph (64 km/h). The “ESC Activation/
Malfunction Indicator Light” will always be illuminated

in 4L range when ESC is off.

----------------------
ESC and TCS are turned off...with the exception of the limited slip function under TCS. That fuction is the off-road programming known as BLD....which differs from the on road programming of normal TCS.

I wouldnt get to excited about BLD if you have any chance of getting stuck... i.e mud and trails with rocks etc...

Save up and get a LSD at a min or a locker. Most of what I seen in those video could be done in 2wd.
 
#31 ·
Here's an excerpt from a paper written by a Jeep control engineer,

"
There are times when controlling how fast the wheels spin may not be desirable for driving conditions such as mud or deep snow. In this case, pushing the ESC button once (in 4wd high range) will disable the brake and engine portions of traction control that control how fast the wheels are allowed to spin but leaves BLD on. In 4wd low range, only BLD functions so there is no need to turn off traction control."

Notice the underlined part, in 4wd low range the BLD functions so there is no need to turn off traction control. If TC is not the same as BLD just by a different name, then how are they different?
 
#33 ·
Here's an excerpt from a paper written by a Jeep control engineer,

"There are times when controlling how fast the wheels spin may not be desirable for driving conditions such as mud or deep snow. In this case, pushing the ESC button once (in 4wd high range) will disable the brake and engine portions of traction control that control how fast the wheels are allowed to spin but leaves BLD on. In 4wd low range, only BLD functions so there is no need to turn off traction control."

Notice the underlined part, in 4wd low range the BLD functions so there is no need to turn off traction control. If TC is not the same as BLD just by a different name, then how are they different?
I think you are reading it incorrectly.

Think of it like this:

"Unlike 4H, there is no need to manually (by pushing/holding down the ESC button) turn off traction control in 4L as it is already turned off."

The two are different because they have different algorithms.
 
#35 ·
What would be nice is if we knew what the perameters of BLD actually were.

I'm guessing it is something like...it only operates when the vehicle is in 4L , in 1st or 2nd gear, and under 2mph.....or somethinge like that.
 
#37 ·
You still have open diffs...the BLD or TC is all computer...neither reside in the diff
 
#39 ·
Open diffs were never in question, I knew they were open diffs. The issue I was trying to ask is how does the BLD work off road. The terminology had me confused, as BLD is never mentioned and there are Jeep advertisements, 'advertising' computer traction off road:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gms10wWz0E

Realizing there's TC and BLD and they are the same thing except different :eek:, all this makes sense now.
 
#42 ·
I agree.....with a lot of what has been said....bottom line IMO the JKs are more "street friendly" than my ol' TJ, but I am more comfortable with driving the TJ as I know what to expect. Don't get me wrong I like the JKs, (I have 2 of 'em) but if wheeling is what we are doing...I prefer the Jeep I have been driving the last 10 years......not saying it wheels better or anything like that......its kinda like having a tool or gun that you are more "comfortable with"........which do YOU use?
 
#43 ·
I guess my thing with TC/BLD is its not dependable off road. You cant really predict when its going to work or kick in maybe when you want it to. Sure you pick an obstacle tht may "trigger" it, but other than that its a mystery.

LSD and lockers are the there physically and you know when its going to work...not depnding on a computer to use a set of predetermined triggers to get it to work.
 
#44 ·
I 'talked' to a guy that had a problem going up hills with BLD. His thinking is that BLD works pretty good for short periods of time, but on long hills, he says it can kill your momentum.

That kinda makes sense as first one wheel and then the opposite can break loose on long hills. I suspect it gets pretty confusing to the computer and you wind up with brake over lap or you've slowed down so many times due to a brake being applied that you can't get going again.

I'm gonna have a talk with my local 4x4 shop tomorrow and see how they handle lockers with all the BLD, etc.
 
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