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Old 04-24-2014, 06:49 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
The force originates from the front of the Jeep from the winch. That force is redirected through two fixed anchor pulleys. Neither of those two pulleys can move so they are only redirection pulleys and hence can have no mechanical advantage. It is the tension in the cable, supplied by the winch that creates a force at the rear of the Jeep via the pulley attached to the Jeep. It is pulling on something, it is pulling on the tree. In pulley theory, discounting friction which is what we're doing for the moment, the tension in all lines of a continuous run of rope through a pulley system has the same tension any where in the rope. So if a rope has 1000 lbs of force in it at one point, it must have that same force at any point in the rope regardless of whether it goes through a pulley or it is terminated on an anchor. I don't believe I said it increased the force on the winch. I said the rear of the Jeep experiences a force of double the force the winch is pulling with. Conversely, the force on the winch would be half what the force is at the rear hitch of the Jeep. The same way any pulley system gains mechanical advantage. You anchor one end of a rope, run the rope through a pulley attached to the load, and pull on the free end of the rope. That creates a 2:1 mechanical advantage. In any simple pulley system and that's what this is by definition, one end is always terminated against an anchor point. That's exactly what's going on at the rear of the Jeep. That pulley attached to the Jeep has one end terminated on a fixed point and a pulling force applied to the other end. It creates a 2:1 mechanical advantage. So whatever force is in the rope, it is doubled at the connection point at the rear of the Jeep by the pulley effect. The reverse rigging is no more than two redirects and a 2:1 mechanical advantage. Think of this. If the force pulling rearward is not greater than the force pulling forward, then how does it pull the Jeep rearward? If you're really interested in pulley systems and how they work and how to easily calculate forces on any anchor point, any pulley, force required to lift a load, I have a 17 segment pulley series on YouTube explaining a redirect, the pulley effect, and continuing on through simple, compound, and complex pulley systems.
Like I suggested, try it for yourself Rear recovery won't work without double line pull from the rear. Double line pull = mechanical advantage to the winch. Some of your arguments assume single line tactics. They Simply don't apply in this case.
Thank you for the utube offer but I got my fill of mechanical advantage in engineering courses... many years ago. I prefer practice over theory now

Please pm me on this if you want to continue. I think the thread high jacking has gone too far. Sorry again OP

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Old 04-24-2014, 07:58 PM   #32
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A few facts about winching;
1) Winches are rated at the first wire/rope wrap spooled on the drum. As wrap count increases-pulling power diminishes (pretty significantly in some cases).
2) Winching by doubling back via snatch block does not double pulling power, some effort is lost on the pulley (approx 15% each way-worsening with degraded equip quality)

Myself, I bought a new WARN Zeon 12,000lb wire-rope for my '14 JKURX.
My reasoning was - all WARN Zeon's are the same dimensions so fit wasn't an issue, it was less expensive than a 10k with syn-rope (I'm an 'old school' tow/recovery guy who prefers wire anyway), & my motto is "always bring enough winch" (used to be "always bring enough gun", but thats another story..).

I suggest that you buy the largest quality winch that'll fit (that you can afford), for the worst scenario you think you may find yourself in.

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Old 04-24-2014, 08:03 PM   #33
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Like I suggested, try it for yourself Rear recovery won't work without double line pull from the rear. Double line pull = mechanical advantage to the winch. Some of your arguments assume single line tactics. They Simply don't apply in this case.
Thank you for the utube offer but I got my fill of mechanical advantage in engineering courses... many years ago. I prefer practice over theory now

Please pm me on this if you want to continue. I think the thread high jacking has gone too far. Sorry again OP
You're confusing two completely different systems. The front double line works very differently than the rearward rigging.

In the forward double line the 2:1 comes from two lines exerting the same force in the same direction which doubles the force.

In the rearward rigging, the winch pulls on the Jeep both forward and backwards due to the pulley arrangement. The only reason the Jeep goes backwards is because there is a greater force pulling it rearward than pulling it forward. The greater force comes from the doubled rope pulling on the pulley attached to the rear of the Jeep.

The rear pull does give mechanical advantage to the winch. The winch pulls with a 1000 pounds, and through the pulley effect, generates a 2000 lb pull to the rear of the of the Jeep. That's a 2:1 mechanical advantage to the winch.

Get some load cells and measure the forces and you'll see that practice supports the theory. And, I am an engineer and pulley systems is one of my areas of expertise.

Or even simpler ask a college physics teacher to analyze the forward 2:1 to the rearward pull.

An interesting conundrum is if a Jeep is being pulled by a doubled rope forward rigging and the winch is pulling with 1000 lbs, there is a total force of 2000 lbs pulling the Jeep, right? What happens if you disconnect the 'hook' from the Jeep being pulled and connect it to a stationary Jeep? How much force does the winch have to pull with to pull the Jeep with the same 2000 lb force? It has to pull with 2000 lbs. Oh, and there is now 4,000 lbs against the anchor 'tree' where with the doubled line it was only 2,000 lbs.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:14 PM   #34
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A few facts about winching;
1) Winches are rated at the first wire/rope wrap spooled on the drum. As wrap count increases-pulling power diminishes (pretty significantly in some cases).
2) Winching by doubling back via snatch block does not double pulling power, some effort is lost on the pulley (approx 15% each way-worsening with degraded equip quality)
That's very true, but there's only the snatch block, well unless the winch bearings are going bad and then there's loses whether doubled or single pulling.

The theoretical value of doubling is generally used because as you said there's only about a 15% difference anyway and the theoretical is easier to deal with. And you have to be careful about assuming the overall efficiency is equal to the pulley's efficiency - it's actually better!

E.g. with a 15% inefficient snatch block, if the winch is pulling with 1000 lbs, the cable on the other side of the block will be exerting a force of 850 lbs. The total force applied to the Jeep is 1850 lbs. 1850 lbs is 92.5% of 2000 lbs, not the 85% efficiency of the pulley. And 92.5% is gettin' pretty close to the theoretical mechanical advantage.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:27 PM   #35
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It's a closed loop system. You forget that The rear recovery point on jeep is moving 1:2 with winch.
I'm tired now and am ending this.
But you really need to get out there and enjoy the jeep's features. Key stroke wars are not my thing

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Old 04-24-2014, 09:05 PM   #36
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It's a closed loop system. You forget that The rear recovery point on jeep is moving 1:2 with winch.
I'm tired now and am ending this.
But you really need to get out there and enjoy the jeep's features. Key stroke wars are not my thing

Cheers
I didn't forget, it's all accounted for.

Actually the Jeep doesn't have to move - the system will still have the same MA and the forces will develop the same. All pulley system mechanical advantages are analyzed based on the configuration independent of movement. E.g. a 4:1 makes no reference to speed, simply configuration.

The 'T' method of analysis shows what the magnitude of the forces are, what the force on the anchor(s) is, the force on each pulley, the forces in the ropes, and the theoretical mechanical advantage. And the bonus is, it's easy to do.
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:58 PM   #37
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Thanks for all the advice guys. The majority seems to be leaning towards the 10k. I don't plan to be doing any major off-roading that would require more so I'll be going that route too.
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Old 04-25-2014, 06:59 AM   #38
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Thanks for all the advice guys. The majority seems to be leaning towards the 10k. I don't plan to be doing any major off-roading that would require more so I'll be going that route too.
As some have indicated, 10k may be an overkill, especially for guys like you and me that don't plan to do major off-roading, but as far as I can see there's no penalty going with the 10k over the 8k except a bit more initial cost. Well, I guess the slower line feed rate could be considered a penalty, but other than that....
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:46 AM   #39
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Hey guys I need some advice. I have a stock 2014 JKU. I starting to get my recovery kit ready and want a winch. I've decided on the RockHard winch plate for my stock bumper but I'm not sure if I should get an 8 or 10k winch. What do you recommend? Will the extra weight sit ok on the factory suspension or will I need to upgrade it too?
Look at what you started!!! :-p jk Good luck with your decision.
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Old 04-25-2014, 06:49 PM   #40
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Amazing how things can be over thought, while I like and use physic's in my line of work however nothing beats practical experience and logic, agree that one should go out and practice.
8-12K winches all work when needed, my larger F150 has receiver mounts for a Warn 8K and has worked many times as long as direct pull vs. shear forces on the receiver. I have the Q11K on the JKUR.

For a little humor....Old school reverse winching was placing (think digging under) logs under the carriage and running the cable under the vehicle...I only did once by necessity and hopefully will never ever do it again.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:38 PM   #41
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Look at what you started!!! :-p jk Good luck with your decision.

That's exactly what I thought.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:49 PM   #42
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This thread turned into a bill nye the science guy love fest....
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:08 AM   #43
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I wheel with guys that by September they are looking for excuses to use the winch becasue they bought a new winch and havent had to use it all year. Other guys look at their winch and go "damn when was the last time I used that..better see if it still works".

If your gettting stuck everytime your out, better look at your rig and what it doesnt have and the type of trails your on.

Or, your just a crappy driver.....that happens.
Sounds like you wheel with guys that run only easy trails to me. Believe it or not some people run trails that they know they are going to have to winch on because there is no way around it. Does that make them a crapy driver? I think not.

Some people wheel hard trails and some people brag about how they never have to use their winch.
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Old 04-26-2014, 11:40 PM   #44
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I went to 4wheelparts in Raleigh today. I ordered the Rock Hard winch plate for the stock bumper and X2O-10K Waterproof Synthetic Rope Wireless Winch Gen2 with Fairlead. I was going to go with the Warn VR10000 but they offered a 3 year "whatever happens" warranty for $55 on the SmityBuilt and it came with the synthetic for a lighter load in the front.

I know there are a lot of Warn only guys on here, but does anyone have any experience with SmityBuilt winches?
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Old 04-27-2014, 08:58 AM   #45
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I know there are a lot of Warn only guys on here, but does anyone have any experience with SmityBuilt winches?
Dude you didn't learn your lesson from the first post, now you set another fire??? Jk - again

In all honesty, I did a lot of research and I read as many good reviews about the SmityBuilt as bad. Probably more good than bad. But you are going to get a lot of Warn this and Warn that. Warn is a great company but honestly not sure how much difference between the VR series and the SmityBuilt.

Test it out when you install it and have fun. Remember to consider getting a recovery kit (straps, snatch Block, d-rings) stuff like that are also necessary when in a recovery involving the winch.

Happy jeeping!!
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Old 04-27-2014, 10:11 AM   #46
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Dude you didn't learn your lesson from the first post, now you set another fire??? Jk - again
I know. I know.

I plan on picking up a good recovery kit too. Collapsable shovel, d rings, snatch block, tree strap, 20'x20k straps. I saw a few different forum posts for starter recover kits.
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Old 04-27-2014, 12:52 PM   #47
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I know. I know. I plan on picking up a good recovery kit too. Collapsable shovel, d rings, snatch block, tree strap, 20'x20k straps. I saw a few different forum posts for starter recover kits.
Cool, you'll be good to go.

I have used everything in my kit one time or another in the past year. Everything will be useful at 1 point for yourself or a fellow off roader.

Smittibilt makes a pretty good one for $100 and so does Quadratec. A Smittibilt strap with snatch block pulled me out of muddy ditch and did great before I bought my winch. That experience is what convinced me to get a winch. I know I will try something that will get me stuck at one point. Before doing something questionable I make sure I have an anchor point I can reach. If not, I go around...if possible.

Again have fun. Post a pic once it's all there. And consider buying a winch cover. UV rays are not too friendly for the synthetic rope. It's not a bad idea to get a cover to keep the rope away from UV. It's what I read and what I did.
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Old 04-27-2014, 08:49 PM   #48
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one thing not mentioned much as to size of winch. most of my winching is pulling others out, not so much me, so size of the other guy is more important and thus the bigger winch the bigger the winching load can be. try pulling out a 3/4 ton truck with 40's sunk to the frame with an 8000# winch, not going to happen. buy as big as you can afford with the appropriate kit with straps, shackles, snatch blocks. and save the world.
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Old 04-27-2014, 09:08 PM   #49
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one thing not mentioned much as to size of winch. most of my winching is pulling others out, not so much me, so size of the other guy is more important and thus the bigger winch the bigger the winching load can be. try pulling out a 3/4 ton truck with 40's sunk to the frame with an 8000# winch, not going to happen. buy as big as you can afford with the appropriate kit with straps, shackles, snatch blocks. and save the world.
X10. I can tell you a 10000 winch with most of the cable off the drum (no snatch block used) has its hands full pulling out a buried 5000 lb rig. We had two rigs teethered together as just a wrangler unlimited did not have enough holding power to keep from getting pulled to the stuck other 5000 lb unlimited. once teethered off it really hunkered down and we thought we were going to end up pulling the snatch block out but finally pulled the stuck rig.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:12 PM   #50
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one thing not mentioned much as to size of winch. most of my winching is pulling others out, not so much me, so size of the other guy is more important and thus the bigger winch the bigger the winching load can be. try pulling out a 3/4 ton truck with 40's sunk to the frame with an 8000# winch, not going to happen. buy as big as you can afford with the appropriate kit with straps, shackles, snatch blocks. and save the world.
I guess if your a recovery company getting paid..ya you have a point.

Honestly I am not basing my purchases on rescueing someone who I might run into? If I cant get them out with my winch someone in their group should be able to.

OR...heres an idea...."that guy" should be equipped to get himself out.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:16 PM   #51
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Sounds like you wheel with guys that run only easy trails to me. Believe it or not some people run trails that they know they are going to have to winch on because there is no way around it. Does that make them a crapy driver? I think not.

Some people wheel hard trails and some people brag about how they never have to use their winch.
Sure tuff guy...


What do you call easy?


In our group not all of us are equipped to run that trail. But we try not to winch/strap etc....I mean whats the fun in that?
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:24 PM   #52
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I guess if your a recovery company getting paid..ya you have a point.

Honestly I am not basing my purchases on rescueing someone who I might run into? If I cant get them out with my winch someone in their group should be able to.

OR...heres an idea...."that guy" should be equipped to get himself out.
Seems like a different attitude for someone who promotes a graphics business. Just seems like we do things different where I am from and glad of it.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:37 PM   #53
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Seems like a different attitude for someone who promotes a graphics business. Just seems like we do things different where I am from and glad of it.

Awww are you offended?

1. What does my business have to do with how I spend MY money and build MY rig?

2. When you march off in to the wilderness with your 4x4 YOU should be prepared to have the recovery gear for YOUR rig. If you go out alone aand or play in the mud by your self with no way to get out if you become stuck...you asked for it.

Would I just drive off and leave the guy..no. If he has a winch I ll get my tree strap out he can bring me the winch line and Ill hook him to a tree or whatever etc...

But, I am not the flat biller who hangs out at the mud hole all day just hoping someone gets stuck and I race over to be a hero either.

If thats what makes you feel good..then by all means carry on .
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:19 PM   #54
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Don't make me turn this car around...
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Old 04-28-2014, 06:11 PM   #55
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Awww are you offended?

1. What does my business have to do with how I spend MY money and build MY rig?

2. When you march off in to the wilderness with your 4x4 YOU should be prepared to have the recovery gear for YOUR rig. If you go out alone aand or play in the mud by your self with no way to get out if you become stuck...you asked for it.

Would I just drive off and leave the guy..no. If he has a winch I ll get my tree strap out he can bring me the winch line and Ill hook him to a tree or whatever etc...

But, I am not the flat biller who hangs out at the mud hole all day just hoping someone gets stuck and I race over to be a hero either.

If thats what makes you feel good..then by all means carry on .
I don't do mud holes not my thing. I could care less what equipment you buy.hell I don't care if you have any equipment. Your business has nothing to do with how you spend your money but your comments would keep me from spending my money in your business. Nice thing is we can all make our own choices on what and where we spend our money. Maybe you will get lucky and see me buried in a snow field and get to just drive on by. lol.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:28 PM   #56
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Don't make me turn this car around...
Are we there yet?
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:46 PM   #57
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I don't do mud holes not my thing. I could care less what equipment you buy.hell I don't care if you have any equipment. Your business has nothing to do with how you spend your money but your comments would keep me from spending my money in your business. Nice thing is we can all make our own choices on what and where we spend our money. Maybe you will get lucky and see me buried in a snow field and get to just drive on by. lol.
Hey...I'll throw you some matches and you can melt your way out.

Ian not really sure what i said that was no disturbing for you...but then again kids have fragile feelings.

Next time you want to participate in a big boy conversion leave your feelings in your pocket.

BTW....Iam not on this forum to make money for my business...you should save your money anyway for all that recovery gear yo u will need to save everyone on the trail hero.
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Old 04-30-2014, 12:39 PM   #58
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There's a difference between being direct and being rude. It's unfortunate that even adults can't always tell the difference.
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Old 04-30-2014, 01:25 PM   #59
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There's a difference between being direct and being rude. It's unfortunate that even adults can't always tell the difference.

Whos rude? I know its not "in style" these days to be direct because people take it as rude/mean etc...

I am not here to coddle anyone..you come on a forum and make a comment, its there for someone to respond to...you dont want to deal with a differnece of opinion or be challenged on it...

DONT POST!
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Old 04-30-2014, 02:43 PM   #60
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