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Winch 8kLB or 10kLB

16K views 64 replies 16 participants last post by  kneill 
#1 ·
Hey guys I need some advice. I have a stock 2014 JKU. I starting to get my recovery kit ready and want a winch. I've decided on the RockHard winch plate for my stock bumper but I'm not sure if I should get an 8 or 10k winch. What do you recommend? Will the extra weight sit ok on the factory suspension or will I need to upgrade it too?
 
#2 ·
The winch should be rated for twice the weight of your rig.


Suspension.....prolly not.
 
#3 ·
I have a 2014 jkur and am running a 10000lb Warn vr10000 as does my buddy on his 14 jku and the other day playing in the snow we did a lot of getting buried. I was wishing I had a 12K winch. The VR10000 did the job but when you are buried up to your doors in a snow covered bog and light is fading you sure are glad you don't have an 8000 lb capacity winch.
I know snatch blocks increase capacity but even then why not go as big as possible.
 
#4 ·
I live in Southern California where a snow day is somewhat of a fairytale, and mudding season is as short as quail season.

I went with a 8k winch originally for my 97 TJ, and when I sold that I kept it for my JKUR.
Being honest with myself, their is no need to go any bigger or better. For one, I have a Jeep and don't ever seem to get stuck, and secondly the winch is pretty much for pulling all of my friends out who weren't smart enough to get a Jeep!

Just be honest with yourself, are you going to be in situations where you need to lift yourself over a near-vertical 8 foot tall rock slab? Are the weather conditions horrible more than 2 months out of the year? If you answered no to both of those questions, get something affordable as security and peace of mind. If you answered yes to both of those questions, get the biggest powerplant you can manage to mount!
 
#5 ·
If money is not an option, get the biggest one you can afford. I also have the VR1000 but I went synthetic and 1 reason was the weight (a little lighter). Before the winch I got stuck pretty bag and my buddy with a super winch 9.5k pulled me out but we used a snatch block for extra pulling power. That winch did great.

I also put a leveling kit on mine to offset the weight (I also added LOD bumper) and it's worked great.
 
#6 ·
Bigger is better when you need it. I have a JK with a 10,000lb winch. Some would say it is overkill on a 2dr but I say having too much is better than not having enough. When you are stuck you will be glad you went large!

Keep in mind, with a snatch block you can double the pulling power of the winch.
 
#7 ·
Aside from pulling power, which I'll get back to, most winches I've looked at use the very same winches with a higher gear ratio to move the 8,000 lbs up to 10,000 lbs.

One of the benefits of the higher ratio is, at all pulling loads up to 8,000 lbs, the 10,000 lb winch will draw about 20% less current from the battery. That means 20% longer pulling before the battery depletes, and more electrical efficiency from the winch which means less winch heating.

In all my research, the most common rule of thumb was the winch should have a pull of 1.5 times the vehicle's weight, as indicated in this link from Warn winch:

Warn Industries - How to choose the right winch

An excerpt from the link: "For trucks, it's simple. Take the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and multiply it by 1.5. For example, if you've got a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon two door. A quick visit to Jeep's website shows the vehicle's GVWR is right about 5,000 lbs. (2,268 kg). Multiply this by 1.5 and you'll get your minimum capacity. In this case, it's 7,500 lbs. (3,402 kg)."

I'm not sure about the 5,000 lbs; the numbers I see are 4400 lbs. Based on that number 1.5x would be 6600 lbs.

Another interesting thing about winching is if you have to pull rearward, your trailer receiver is between 2,000 and 3,500 lbs depending on which towing package you have. And if you use the triple snatch block technique to winch backwards a pull on the winch cable of 2000 lbs will produce a pull on the trailer receiver hitch of 4,000 lbs, which exceeds its rating by a good bit.

Finally, the intended use for a winch plays a big role. You probably won't need as much winch pull for more casual off roading as you would for pulling your Jeep out of fender deep mud or over boulders almost straight up.

I'm in the casual off-road group. I chose (finally) the Warn Zeon 10-s. A lot of the 'why' was because of the higher gear ratio and the lower current draw.

Oh, it is unlikely that the 10,000 will weigh any more than the 8,000. E.g. the weight of the Warn Zeon 8-s is 75 lbs; the weight of the Zeon 10-s is 75 lbs.
 
#8 ·
Aside from pulling power, which I'll get back to, most winches I've looked at use the very same winches with a higher gear ratio to move the 8,000 lbs up to 10,000 lbs. One of the benefits of the higher ratio is, at all pulling loads up to 8,000 lbs, the 10,000 lb winch will draw about 20% less current from the battery. That means 20% longer pulling before the battery depletes, and more electrical efficiency from the winch which means less winch heating. In all my research, the most common rule of thumb was the winch should have a pull of 1.5 times the vehicle's weight, as indicated in this link from Warn winch: Warn Industries - How to choose the right winch An excerpt from the link: "For trucks, it's simple. Take the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and multiply it by 1.5. For example, if you've got a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon two door. A quick visit to Jeep's website shows the vehicle's GVWR is right about 5,000 lbs. (2,268 kg). Multiply this by 1.5 and you'll get your minimum capacity. In this case, it's 7,500 lbs. (3,402 kg)." I'm not sure about the 5,000 lbs; the numbers I see are 4400 lbs. Based on that number 1.5x would be 6600 lbs. Another interesting thing about winching is if you have to pull rearward, your trailer receiver is between 2,000 and 3,500 lbs depending on which towing package you have. And if you use the triple snatch block technique to winch backwards a pull on the winch cable of 2000 lbs will produce a pull on the trailer receiver hitch of 4,000 lbs, which exceeds its rating by a good bit. Finally, the intended use for a winch plays a big role. You probably won't need as much winch pull for more casual off roading as you would for pulling your Jeep out of fender deep mud or over boulders almost straight up. I'm in the casual off-road group. I chose (finally) the Warn Zeon 10-s. A lot of the 'why' was because of the higher gear ratio and the lower current draw. Oh, it is unlikely that the 10,000 will weigh any more than the 8,000. E.g. the weight of the Warn Zeon 8-s is 75 lbs; the weight of the Zeon 10-s is 75 lbs.
I think you have the rear pull backwards. By nature of the snatch block/cable attachment points in the rear, this equates to a double line pull. The winch sees 1/2 of the forces generated from the rear of vehicle. At least this is my experience when performing the maneuver. Of course double line pulls may reduce load, but they also increase winching time. That can lead to overheating and battery trouble.
You should try it sometime in a controlled environment
 
#13 ·
#14 ·
Yep, the Warn Zeon 8 draws 335 amps at 6000 lb

The Smitty 8000 lb draws 335 amps at 6000 lb

But the Zeon 10 only draws 284 amps at 6000 lb due to the higher gear ratio.

That's a current draw difference of 18% - significant, but not earth moving, pardon the pun.

BTW, that website lists the 6000 lb pull incorrectly for the Zeon 10. If you notice the 6000 lb draw is more than the 8000 lb draw. I interpolated the 4000 and 8000 amp draw to get the 284 amp figure.
 
#22 ·
Yes it would.

One very curious thing though is what about the tow package determines whether it's a 2000 lb or 3500 lb package?

It could be that the hitch components for the 2000 lb package is not as robust as the 3500 lb or it could be that the 3500 lb package has the load balancing arm accommodation.

It is a rather curious specification though - I think we would all concede that especially with the 3500 lb rating, one could pull a trailer with a 5000 lb vehicle on the trailer. So the trailer weight plus the hauled vehicle weight might be close to 6000 lbs which is way over 3500 lbs.

That sort of suggests the specification is a pull weight rather than a load weight, but I don't know.

In any event, I'd want to know what pull I can safely put in the trailer hitch. If it's rated for 2000 lbs is 10000 lbs going to damage anything?
 
#18 ·
#20 ·
I suppose little air pockets under the snow or who knows but when it gives way down you go. I don't wheel in mud but I guess they both would provide challenges. my guess is on snow you can be considerably further from good traction for pulling out. Snow is cleaner.
 
#23 ·
I think the reason for the tow capacities are related to many different things ie wheel base, gear ratios and a multitude of other things. I believe you would find the same hitch components in the 2dr or 4dr and most likely in a jeep that would be rated much higher. I am sure the hitch is strong enough to handle more weight but when towing there are the other factors to worry about like stopping and staying on the road when the trailer starts wagging side to side etc
 
#24 ·
.... I am sure the hitch is strong enough to handle more weight but when towing there are the other factors to worry about like stopping and staying on the road when the trailer starts wagging side to side etc
But how is there more stability with a 3500 lb towing package than a 2000 lb towing capacity? Why can a jeep that can't handle more than 2000 lbs with a 2000 lb hitch, suddenly handle 3500 lbs by changing out the towing package?

How can it stop a 3500 lb load with one package but only 2000 lbs with the lighter package?
 
#26 ·
As far as I know, the only differences between the 2000 lb and 3500 lb ratings are the wheelbase and gearing. The 2-door, with it's shorter wheelbase, only gets 2000. A 4-door, with a more stable, longer wheelbase, only gets 2000 lbs if it has 3.21 gears. Better gear ratios are better suited to towing, so they get the higher rating.
 
#28 ·
heck if you look at different markets some countries have substancially higher tow ratings then we do in the US and you know they did not change anything on the vehicle.
 
#32 ·
A few facts about winching;
1) Winches are rated at the first wire/rope wrap spooled on the drum. As wrap count increases-pulling power diminishes (pretty significantly in some cases).
2) Winching by doubling back via snatch block does not double pulling power, some effort is lost on the pulley (approx 15% each way-worsening with degraded equip quality)

Myself, I bought a new WARN Zeon 12,000lb wire-rope for my '14 JKURX.
My reasoning was - all WARN Zeon's are the same dimensions so fit wasn't an issue, it was less expensive than a 10k with syn-rope (I'm an 'old school' tow/recovery guy who prefers wire anyway), & my motto is "always bring enough winch" (used to be "always bring enough gun", but thats another story..).

I suggest that you buy the largest quality winch that'll fit (that you can afford), for the worst scenario you think you may find yourself in.
 
#34 ·
A few facts about winching;
1) Winches are rated at the first wire/rope wrap spooled on the drum. As wrap count increases-pulling power diminishes (pretty significantly in some cases).
2) Winching by doubling back via snatch block does not double pulling power, some effort is lost on the pulley (approx 15% each way-worsening with degraded equip quality)
That's very true, but there's only the snatch block, well unless the winch bearings are going bad and then there's loses whether doubled or single pulling.

The theoretical value of doubling is generally used because as you said there's only about a 15% difference anyway and the theoretical is easier to deal with. And you have to be careful about assuming the overall efficiency is equal to the pulley's efficiency - it's actually better!

E.g. with a 15% inefficient snatch block, if the winch is pulling with 1000 lbs, the cable on the other side of the block will be exerting a force of 850 lbs. The total force applied to the Jeep is 1850 lbs. 1850 lbs is 92.5% of 2000 lbs, not the 85% efficiency of the pulley. And 92.5% is gettin' pretty close to the theoretical mechanical advantage.
 
#36 ·
I didn't forget, it's all accounted for.

Actually the Jeep doesn't have to move - the system will still have the same MA and the forces will develop the same. All pulley system mechanical advantages are analyzed based on the configuration independent of movement. E.g. a 4:1 makes no reference to speed, simply configuration.

The 'T' method of analysis shows what the magnitude of the forces are, what the force on the anchor(s) is, the force on each pulley, the forces in the ropes, and the theoretical mechanical advantage. And the bonus is, it's easy to do.
 
#38 ·
As some have indicated, 10k may be an overkill, especially for guys like you and me that don't plan to do major off-roading, but as far as I can see there's no penalty going with the 10k over the 8k except a bit more initial cost. Well, I guess the slower line feed rate could be considered a penalty, but other than that....
 
#40 ·
Amazing how things can be over thought, while I like and use physic's in my line of work however nothing beats practical experience and logic, agree that one should go out and practice.
8-12K winches all work when needed, my larger F150 has receiver mounts for a Warn 8K and has worked many times as long as direct pull vs. shear forces on the receiver. I have the Q11K on the JKUR.

For a little humor....Old school reverse winching was placing (think digging under) logs under the carriage and running the cable under the vehicle...I only did once by necessity and hopefully will never ever do it again.
 
#42 ·
This thread turned into a bill nye the science guy love fest....
 
#44 ·
I went to 4wheelparts in Raleigh today. I ordered the Rock Hard winch plate for the stock bumper and X2O-10K Waterproof Synthetic Rope Wireless Winch Gen2 with Fairlead. I was going to go with the Warn VR10000 but they offered a 3 year "whatever happens" warranty for $55 on the SmityBuilt and it came with the synthetic for a lighter load in the front.

I know there are a lot of Warn only guys on here, but does anyone have any experience with SmityBuilt winches?
 
#45 ·
I know there are a lot of Warn only guys on here, but does anyone have any experience with SmityBuilt winches?
Dude you didn't learn your lesson from the first post, now you set another fire??? Jk - again

In all honesty, I did a lot of research and I read as many good reviews about the SmityBuilt as bad. Probably more good than bad. But you are going to get a lot of Warn this and Warn that. Warn is a great company but honestly not sure how much difference between the VR series and the SmityBuilt.

Test it out when you install it and have fun. Remember to consider getting a recovery kit (straps, snatch Block, d-rings) stuff like that are also necessary when in a recovery involving the winch.

Happy jeeping!!
 
#48 ·
one thing not mentioned much as to size of winch. most of my winching is pulling others out, not so much me, so size of the other guy is more important and thus the bigger winch the bigger the winching load can be. try pulling out a 3/4 ton truck with 40's sunk to the frame with an 8000# winch, not going to happen. buy as big as you can afford with the appropriate kit with straps, shackles, snatch blocks. and save the world.
 
#49 ·
X10. I can tell you a 10000 winch with most of the cable off the drum (no snatch block used) has its hands full pulling out a buried 5000 lb rig. We had two rigs teethered together as just a wrangler unlimited did not have enough holding power to keep from getting pulled to the stuck other 5000 lb unlimited. once teethered off it really hunkered down and we thought we were going to end up pulling the snatch block out but finally pulled the stuck rig.
 
#59 ·
There's a difference between being direct and being rude. It's unfortunate that even adults can't always tell the difference.

Whos rude? I know its not "in style" these days to be direct because people take it as rude/mean etc...

I am not here to coddle anyone..you come on a forum and make a comment, its there for someone to respond to...you dont want to deal with a differnece of opinion or be challenged on it...

DONT POST!
 
#61 ·
Haha...
 
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