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Old 04-24-2014, 12:34 AM   #1
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Winch 8kLB or 10kLB

Hey guys I need some advice. I have a stock 2014 JKU. I starting to get my recovery kit ready and want a winch. I've decided on the RockHard winch plate for my stock bumper but I'm not sure if I should get an 8 or 10k winch. What do you recommend? Will the extra weight sit ok on the factory suspension or will I need to upgrade it too?

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Old 04-24-2014, 12:41 AM   #2
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Hey guys I need some advice. I have a stock 2014 JKU. I starting to get my recovery kit ready and want a winch. I've decided on the RockHard winch plate for my stock bumper but I'm not sure if I should get an 8 or 10k winch. What do you recommend? Will the extra weight sit ok on the factory suspension or will I need to upgrade it too?
The winch should be rated for twice the weight of your rig.


Suspension.....prolly not.

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Old 04-24-2014, 01:23 AM   #3
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I have a 2014 jkur and am running a 10000lb Warn vr10000 as does my buddy on his 14 jku and the other day playing in the snow we did a lot of getting buried. I was wishing I had a 12K winch. The VR10000 did the job but when you are buried up to your doors in a snow covered bog and light is fading you sure are glad you don't have an 8000 lb capacity winch.
I know snatch blocks increase capacity but even then why not go as big as possible.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:24 AM   #4
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I live in Southern California where a snow day is somewhat of a fairytale, and mudding season is as short as quail season.

I went with a 8k winch originally for my 97 TJ, and when I sold that I kept it for my JKUR.
Being honest with myself, their is no need to go any bigger or better. For one, I have a Jeep and don't ever seem to get stuck, and secondly the winch is pretty much for pulling all of my friends out who weren't smart enough to get a Jeep!

Just be honest with yourself, are you going to be in situations where you need to lift yourself over a near-vertical 8 foot tall rock slab? Are the weather conditions horrible more than 2 months out of the year? If you answered no to both of those questions, get something affordable as security and peace of mind. If you answered yes to both of those questions, get the biggest powerplant you can manage to mount!
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:46 AM   #5
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If money is not an option, get the biggest one you can afford. I also have the VR1000 but I went synthetic and 1 reason was the weight (a little lighter). Before the winch I got stuck pretty bag and my buddy with a super winch 9.5k pulled me out but we used a snatch block for extra pulling power. That winch did great.

I also put a leveling kit on mine to offset the weight (I also added LOD bumper) and it's worked great.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:00 AM   #6
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Bigger is better when you need it. I have a JK with a 10,000lb winch. Some would say it is overkill on a 2dr but I say having too much is better than not having enough. When you are stuck you will be glad you went large!

Keep in mind, with a snatch block you can double the pulling power of the winch.
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Old 04-24-2014, 11:50 AM   #7
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Aside from pulling power, which I'll get back to, most winches I've looked at use the very same winches with a higher gear ratio to move the 8,000 lbs up to 10,000 lbs.

One of the benefits of the higher ratio is, at all pulling loads up to 8,000 lbs, the 10,000 lb winch will draw about 20% less current from the battery. That means 20% longer pulling before the battery depletes, and more electrical efficiency from the winch which means less winch heating.

In all my research, the most common rule of thumb was the winch should have a pull of 1.5 times the vehicle's weight, as indicated in this link from Warn winch:

Warn Industries - How to choose the right winch

An excerpt from the link: "For trucks, it's simple. Take the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and multiply it by 1.5. For example, if you've got a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon two door. A quick visit to Jeep's website shows the vehicle's GVWR is right about 5,000 lbs. (2,268 kg). Multiply this by 1.5 and you'll get your minimum capacity. In this case, it's 7,500 lbs. (3,402 kg)."

I'm not sure about the 5,000 lbs; the numbers I see are 4400 lbs. Based on that number 1.5x would be 6600 lbs.

Another interesting thing about winching is if you have to pull rearward, your trailer receiver is between 2,000 and 3,500 lbs depending on which towing package you have. And if you use the triple snatch block technique to winch backwards a pull on the winch cable of 2000 lbs will produce a pull on the trailer receiver hitch of 4,000 lbs, which exceeds its rating by a good bit.

Finally, the intended use for a winch plays a big role. You probably won't need as much winch pull for more casual off roading as you would for pulling your Jeep out of fender deep mud or over boulders almost straight up.

I'm in the casual off-road group. I chose (finally) the Warn Zeon 10-s. A lot of the 'why' was because of the higher gear ratio and the lower current draw.

Oh, it is unlikely that the 10,000 will weigh any more than the 8,000. E.g. the weight of the Warn Zeon 8-s is 75 lbs; the weight of the Zeon 10-s is 75 lbs.
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Old 04-24-2014, 12:19 PM   #8
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Aside from pulling power, which I'll get back to, most winches I've looked at use the very same winches with a higher gear ratio to move the 8,000 lbs up to 10,000 lbs. One of the benefits of the higher ratio is, at all pulling loads up to 8,000 lbs, the 10,000 lb winch will draw about 20% less current from the battery. That means 20% longer pulling before the battery depletes, and more electrical efficiency from the winch which means less winch heating. In all my research, the most common rule of thumb was the winch should have a pull of 1.5 times the vehicle's weight, as indicated in this link from Warn winch: Warn Industries - How to choose the right winch An excerpt from the link: "For trucks, it's simple. Take the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and multiply it by 1.5. For example, if you've got a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon two door. A quick visit to Jeep's website shows the vehicle's GVWR is right about 5,000 lbs. (2,268 kg). Multiply this by 1.5 and you'll get your minimum capacity. In this case, it's 7,500 lbs. (3,402 kg)." I'm not sure about the 5,000 lbs; the numbers I see are 4400 lbs. Based on that number 1.5x would be 6600 lbs. Another interesting thing about winching is if you have to pull rearward, your trailer receiver is between 2,000 and 3,500 lbs depending on which towing package you have. And if you use the triple snatch block technique to winch backwards a pull on the winch cable of 2000 lbs will produce a pull on the trailer receiver hitch of 4,000 lbs, which exceeds its rating by a good bit. Finally, the intended use for a winch plays a big role. You probably won't need as much winch pull for more casual off roading as you would for pulling your Jeep out of fender deep mud or over boulders almost straight up. I'm in the casual off-road group. I chose (finally) the Warn Zeon 10-s. A lot of the 'why' was because of the higher gear ratio and the lower current draw. Oh, it is unlikely that the 10,000 will weigh any more than the 8,000. E.g. the weight of the Warn Zeon 8-s is 75 lbs; the weight of the Zeon 10-s is 75 lbs.
I think you have the rear pull backwards. By nature of the snatch block/cable attachment points in the rear, this equates to a double line pull. The winch sees 1/2 of the forces generated from the rear of vehicle. At least this is my experience when performing the maneuver. Of course double line pulls may reduce load, but they also increase winching time. That can lead to overheating and battery trouble.
You should try it sometime in a controlled environment
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Old 04-24-2014, 12:38 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
Aside from pulling power, which I'll get back to, most winches I've looked at use the very same winches with a higher gear ratio to move the 8,000 lbs up to 10,000 lbs.

One of the benefits of the higher ratio is, at all pulling loads up to 8,000 lbs, the 10,000 lb winch will draw about 20% less current from the battery. That means 20% longer pulling before the battery depletes, and more electrical efficiency from the winch which means less winch heating.

In all my research, the most common rule of thumb was the winch should have a pull of 1.5 times the vehicle's weight, as indicated in this link from Warn winch:

Warn Industries - How to choose the right winch

An excerpt from the link: "For trucks, it's simple. Take the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) and multiply it by 1.5. For example, if you've got a new Jeep Wrangler Rubicon two door. A quick visit to Jeep's website shows the vehicle's GVWR is right about 5,000 lbs. (2,268 kg). Multiply this by 1.5 and you'll get your minimum capacity. In this case, it's 7,500 lbs. (3,402 kg)."

I'm not sure about the 5,000 lbs; the numbers I see are 4400 lbs. Based on that number 1.5x would be 6600 lbs.

Another interesting thing about winching is if you have to pull rearward, your trailer receiver is between 2,000 and 3,500 lbs depending on which towing package you have. And if you use the triple snatch block technique to winch backwards a pull on the winch cable of 2000 lbs will produce a pull on the trailer receiver hitch of 4,000 lbs, which exceeds its rating by a good bit.

Finally, the intended use for a winch plays a big role. You probably won't need as much winch pull for more casual off roading as you would for pulling your Jeep out of fender deep mud or over boulders almost straight up.

I'm in the casual off-road group. I chose (finally) the Warn Zeon 10-s. A lot of the 'why' was because of the higher gear ratio and the lower current draw.

Oh, it is unlikely that the 10,000 will weigh any more than the 8,000. E.g. the weight of the Warn Zeon 8-s is 75 lbs; the weight of the Zeon 10-s is 75 lbs.
8-10,000 lb winch is going to be suffcient for any jeep. I have a 2 door and the 8,000lb winch is way more than I ll never need.

Unles you have a revcovery business, current draw and all that "techinical" BS wont matter for the 3-4 times a year youll probably use your winch.

I yet to hear anyone that was stuck say " Oh you have the XRC winch...I ll wait for the guy with a WARN winch.".

The guys who bury the jeep up to or past the doors.....I have to ask...when did you notice you were stuck?
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Old 04-24-2014, 12:50 PM   #10
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8-10,000 lb winch is going to be suffcient for any jeep. I have a 2 door and the 8,000lb winch is way more than I ll never need.
I agree!

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...Unless you have a revcovery business, current draw and all that "techinical" BS wont matter for the 3-4 times a year youll probably use your winch.
That's simply not true. All it would take is a bit more than normal winching with an aging battery. That's not technical BS - that's a fact of life.

Why would I intentionally choose a winch that draws more current than one that doesn't to get the same pull? It is important to realize that the stock cranking battery that comes in Jeeps is for that - cranking. The plates in a cranking battery are not designed to do long, heavy current draws, nor deep cycling - it can warp the plates. It can also shorten the life of the battery.

Another time the current draw is important is if the engine won't start and the Jeep needs to be winch recovered. I'd much rather have a lower draw and leave some charge in the battery for cranking the engine back up after the problem is corrected.

You will never improve a situation by having a winch that draws 20% more current at any given load.

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...I yet to hear anyone that was stuck say " Oh you have the XRC winch...I ll wait for the guy with a WARN winch.".
I haven't either, but just yesterday a person posted that the X brand winch wouldn't do the job and the Warn did. I'm not convinced that's a winch problem though. That goes right back to the current draw and battery condition.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:00 PM   #11
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That's simply not true. All it would take is a bit more than normal winching with an aging battery. That's not technical BS - that's a fact of life.

Why would I intentionally choose a winch that draws more current than one that doesn't to get the same pull? It is important to realize that the stock cranking battery that comes in Jeeps is for that - cranking. The plates in a cranking battery are not designed to do long, heavy current draws, nor deep cycling - it can warp the plates. It can also shorten the life of the battery.

Another time the current draw is important is if the engine won't start and the Jeep needs to be winch recovered. I'd much rather have a lower draw and leave some charge in the battery for cranking the engine back up after the problem is corrected.

You will never improve a situation by having a winch that draws 20% more current at any given load.

Again, the amount of times most guys use the winch, none of that matters. If your using it everyday...sure.

I wheel with guys that by September they are looking for excuses to use the winch becasue they bought a new winch and havent had to use it all year. Other guys look at their winch and go "damn when was the last time I used that..better see if it still works".

If your gettting stuck everytime your out, better look at your rig and what it doesnt have and the type of trails your on.

Or, your just a crappy driver.....that happens.

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I haven't either, but just yesterday a person posted that the X brand winch wouldn't do the job and the Warn did. I'm not convinced that's a winch problem though. That goes right back to the current draw and battery condition.
Ya I dont know..alot of unknowns there...I see alot of guys run the winch with the Jeep off etc....that never helps.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:17 PM   #12
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Again, the amount of times most guys use the winch, none of that matters. If your using it everyday...sure.

I wheel with guys that by September they are looking for excuses to use the winch becasue they bought a new winch and havent had to use it all year. Other guys look at their winch and go "damn when was the last time I used that..better see if it still works".
I agree, but it's not the winch alone, it's the age/condition of the battery. A battery that can crank an engine in the few seconds it takes, may not have enough capacity to operate a winch for 5 minutes. Hence we get another report of brand X winch failing when it was a battery problem.

A lower current draw is just more forgiving on the entire system.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying winches that draw more current won't work, I'm just saying lower current draw puts less stress on the battery, connections, and even the winch motor. A battery with a lower voltage output due to age will cause a winch motor to heat up more and faster.

But, I'm with you all the way. What you're talking about is how seldom a winch is used by the average jeeper, and further that when he does need it, it's really not the deep muck, steep mountain, big boulder pull needed by more hard core off-roaders.

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...Ya I dont know..alot of unknowns there...I see alot of guys run the winch with the Jeep off etc....that never helps.
Exactly! I'd be willing to bet a lot of those winch failures are battery or connection degradation failures, but I doubt we'll ever know. All that's said is X winch failed.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:18 PM   #13
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Smittybilt XRC 8 Winch - Price, Specs, and More

Warn Premium ZEON 8 Winch - Price, Specs, and More

Its close.

I guess it depends on if you want the big red W or not.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:30 PM   #14
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Yep, the Warn Zeon 8 draws 335 amps at 6000 lb

The Smitty 8000 lb draws 335 amps at 6000 lb

But the Zeon 10 only draws 284 amps at 6000 lb due to the higher gear ratio.

That's a current draw difference of 18% - significant, but not earth moving, pardon the pun.

BTW, that website lists the 6000 lb pull incorrectly for the Zeon 10. If you notice the 6000 lb draw is more than the 8000 lb draw. I interpolated the 4000 and 8000 amp draw to get the 284 amp figure.
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Old 04-24-2014, 03:01 PM   #15
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Another interesting thing about winching is if you have to pull rearward, your trailer receiver is between 2,000 and 3,500 lbs depending on which towing package you have. And if you use the triple snatch block technique to winch backwards a pull on the winch cable of 2000 lbs will produce a pull on the trailer receiver hitch of 4,000 lbs, which exceeds its rating by a good bit.
Would like to comment on this point.

The receiver hitch thing might have you a little confused. A jeep shouldn't tow anything over 3,500 lbs. it is not because the receiver hitch cannot handle the load, it is because the wheel base and over all design of the complete jeep makes it unsafe. ( why there is a tow package) Ive seen video of a jeep pulling a city bus up a slight hill in Seattle on snow. The receiver hitch did just fine and I'm sure that bus weight more than 3,500lbs. But he was pulling, not towing. Did not even reach 10 mph. Actually towing anything over 3,500 lbs on the street becomes unsafe. So it has nothing to do with the capabilities of the tow hitch.

So my point, if you have to do a triple snatch block technique to get yourself from the rear, it will be fine using the receiver hitch.
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Old 04-24-2014, 03:24 PM   #16
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It would be nice to see a number on what the hitch can actually handle, rather than everyone tucking their tail and covering their asses behind the tow rating.
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Old 04-24-2014, 03:28 PM   #17
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8-10,000 lb winch is going to be suffcient for any jeep. I have a 2 door and the 8,000lb winch is way more than I ll never need.

Unles you have a revcovery business, current draw and all that "techinical" BS wont matter for the 3-4 times a year youll probably use your winch.

I yet to hear anyone that was stuck say " Oh you have the XRC winch...I ll wait for the guy with a WARN winch.".

The guys who bury the jeep up to or past the doors.....I have to ask...when did you notice you were stuck?
well when the bottom fell out. I am guessing you have not done a lot of snow wheeling. Just the way it works. driving along floating on top of snow and then bam bottom drops out and you are up to your doors.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:18 PM   #18
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:30 PM   #19
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. I am guessing you have not done a lot of snow wheeling. Just the way it works.

Gee what gave it away.....we do get snow less tha 40 minutes from here tho.(google mt Lemmon) but which is harder to winch out of...

A jeep up to the doors in mud

or snow?

My point was I see guys get stuck then spin all 4 wheels til they bury it beyond the frame and then wonder why it takes more effort to get out.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:40 PM   #20
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I suppose little air pockets under the snow or who knows but when it gives way down you go. I don't wheel in mud but I guess they both would provide challenges. my guess is on snow you can be considerably further from good traction for pulling out. Snow is cleaner.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:49 PM   #21
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I think you have the rear pull backwards. By nature of the snatch block/cable attachment points in the rear, this equates to a double line pull. The winch sees 1/2 of the forces generated from the rear of vehicle. At least this is my experience when performing the maneuver. Of course double line pulls may reduce load, but they also increase winching time. That can lead to overheating and battery trouble.
You should try it sometime in a controlled environment
How did you measure the forces in a controlled environment?

If the winch on the front puts a force of 2000 lbs in the winch line in a rearward pull rigging, the force on the rear hitch is 4000 lbs.

There's 2000 lbs in the winch line and there are two lines pulling on the rear of the Jeep. Each line has a force of 2000 lbs. The two forces are in the same direction so the forces add.

The vehicle will move rearward at one-half the speed that the winch pulls the line in.
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:53 PM   #22
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It would be nice to see a number on what the hitch can actually handle, rather than everyone tucking their tail and covering their asses behind the tow rating.
Yes it would.

One very curious thing though is what about the tow package determines whether it's a 2000 lb or 3500 lb package?

It could be that the hitch components for the 2000 lb package is not as robust as the 3500 lb or it could be that the 3500 lb package has the load balancing arm accommodation.

It is a rather curious specification though - I think we would all concede that especially with the 3500 lb rating, one could pull a trailer with a 5000 lb vehicle on the trailer. So the trailer weight plus the hauled vehicle weight might be close to 6000 lbs which is way over 3500 lbs.

That sort of suggests the specification is a pull weight rather than a load weight, but I don't know.

In any event, I'd want to know what pull I can safely put in the trailer hitch. If it's rated for 2000 lbs is 10000 lbs going to damage anything?
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:26 PM   #23
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I think the reason for the tow capacities are related to many different things ie wheel base, gear ratios and a multitude of other things. I believe you would find the same hitch components in the 2dr or 4dr and most likely in a jeep that would be rated much higher. I am sure the hitch is strong enough to handle more weight but when towing there are the other factors to worry about like stopping and staying on the road when the trailer starts wagging side to side etc
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:37 PM   #24
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.... I am sure the hitch is strong enough to handle more weight but when towing there are the other factors to worry about like stopping and staying on the road when the trailer starts wagging side to side etc
But how is there more stability with a 3500 lb towing package than a 2000 lb towing capacity? Why can a jeep that can't handle more than 2000 lbs with a 2000 lb hitch, suddenly handle 3500 lbs by changing out the towing package?

How can it stop a 3500 lb load with one package but only 2000 lbs with the lighter package?
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:44 PM   #25
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How did you measure the forces in a controlled environment? If the winch on the front puts a force of 2000 lbs in the winch line in a rearward pull rigging, the force on the rear hitch is 4000 lbs. There's 2000 lbs in the winch line and there are two lines pulling on the rear of the Jeep. Each line has a force of 2000 lbs. The two forces are in the same direction so the forces add. The vehicle will move rearward at one-half the speed that the winch pulls the line in.
Think of it this way:
The winch is pulling against a force. That force originates from the rear of the jeep. You are looking at the forces backwards.
Of the two lines in the rear, one of them terminates at a fixed point (I.e. Tree), so it is not pulling on anything; it is only "feeling" half of the force due to the double line pull. The two snatch blocks used in the rear create a block and tackle effect. That in itself has an inherent mechanical advantage, making it impossible to increase force to winch
You really need to experience it for yourself. Create a controlled situation and have a go at it. All you need is a few well placed trees. And recovery gear of course

And my question back to you is how does one create 4000# of force if your winch is only pulling 2000. If you look at it my way, your numbers will transpose.
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:44 PM   #26
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As far as I know, the only differences between the 2000 lb and 3500 lb ratings are the wheelbase and gearing. The 2-door, with it's shorter wheelbase, only gets 2000. A 4-door, with a more stable, longer wheelbase, only gets 2000 lbs if it has 3.21 gears. Better gear ratios are better suited to towing, so they get the higher rating.
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
But how is there more stability with a 3500 lb towing package than a 2000 lb towing capacity? Why can a jeep that can't handle more than 2000 lbs with a 2000 lb hitch, suddenly handle 3500 lbs by changing out the towing package?

How can it stop a 3500 lb load with one package but only 2000 lbs with the lighter package?
gear ratios and wheel base. If you look at the wranglers with 2000 lbs they have 3.21 gears or are 2 doors. Has nothing to do with the strength of the hitch or at least up to a point.
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:48 PM   #28
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heck if you look at different markets some countries have substancially higher tow ratings then we do in the US and you know they did not change anything on the vehicle.
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Old 04-24-2014, 05:57 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
Yes it would. One very curious thing though is what about the tow package determines whether it's a 2000 lb or 3500 lb package? It could be that the hitch components for the 2000 lb package is not as robust as the 3500 lb or it could be that the 3500 lb package has the load balancing arm accommodation. It is a rather curious specification though - I think we would all concede that especially with the 3500 lb rating, one could pull a trailer with a 5000 lb vehicle on the trailer. So the trailer weight plus the hauled vehicle weight might be close to 6000 lbs which is way over 3500 lbs. That sort of suggests the specification is a pull weight rather than a load weight, but I don't know. In any event, I'd want to know what pull I can safely put in the trailer hitch. If it's rated for 2000 lbs is 10000 lbs going to damage anything?
There are many threads on tow capacity. The only variable regarding 2000 vs 3500 is the JKUs gear ratio. 3.21=2000#. 3.73 and above=3500#. JKs are all at 2000

I have high jacked this thread to death. Sorry OP
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Old 04-24-2014, 06:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcrock View Post
Think of it this way:
The winch is pulling against a force. That force originates from the rear of the jeep. You are looking at the forces backwards.
The force originates from the front of the Jeep from the winch. That force is redirected through two fixed anchor pulleys. Neither of those two pulleys can move so they are only redirection pulleys and hence can have no mechanical advantage.

It is the tension in the cable, supplied by the winch that creates a force at the rear of the Jeep via the pulley attached to the Jeep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcrock View Post
...Of the two lines in the rear, one of them terminates at a fixed point (I.e. Tree), so it is not pulling on anything; it is only "feeling" half of the force due to the double line pull.
It is pulling on something, it is pulling on the tree with a force equal to what the winch is pulling.

In pulley theory, discounting friction which is what we're doing for the moment, the tension in all lines of a continuous run of rope through a pulley system has the same tension any where in the rope.

So if a rope has 1000 lbs of force in it at one point, it must have that same force at any point in the rope regardless of whether it goes through a pulley or it is terminated on an anchor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcrock View Post
...The two snatch blocks used in the rear create a block and tackle effect. That in itself has an inherent mechanical advantage, making it impossible to increase force to winch
I don't believe I said it increased the force on the winch. I said the rear of the Jeep experiences a force of double the force the winch is pulling with. Conversely, the force on the winch would be half what the force is at the rear hitch of the Jeep.

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Originally Posted by Mcrock View Post
...And my question back to you is how does one create 4000# of force if your winch is only pulling 2000. If you look at it my way, your numbers will transpose.
The same way any pulley system gains mechanical advantage. You anchor one end of a rope, run the rope through a pulley attached to the load, and pull on the free end of the rope. That creates a 2:1 mechanical advantage. The force in the rope is 1/2 of the force generated at the termination point of the pulley.

That's exactly what's going on at the rear of the Jeep. That pulley attached to the Jeep has one end terminated on a fixed point and a pulling force applied to the other end. It creates a 2:1 mechanical advantage. So whatever force is in the rope, it is doubled at the connection point at the rear of the Jeep by the pulley effect.

The reverse rigging is no more than two redirects and a 2:1 mechanical advantage. Think of this. If the force pulling rearward is not greater than the force pulling forward, then how does it pull the Jeep rearward?

If you're really interested in pulley systems and how they work and how to easily calculate forces on any anchor point, any pulley, force required to lift a load, I have a 17 segment pulley series on YouTube explaining a redirect, the pulley effect, and continuing on through simple, compound, and complex pulley systems.

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