I have an 05 tj 4.0 6spd with about 90k on it. It is lifted 3.25" with 33s. The shakes started about 6 months ago but it was more like bump steer and I didn't have the funds to fix it nor was I traveling much so I let it ride. About a month ago it developed into a speed sensitive (45 mph) full on death wobble so I rotated the tires and it still did not go away. There is no play anywhere that I can tell when I do a dry steer test. The alignment seems to be ok. My only guess is that the tires were out of balance and when I rotated them one of the ones from the back was out of balance as well which landed me back to square one. I'll attach a few pictures of the steering. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Same issue and I'm only running 31's on a stock suspension. I get a slight wobble at 55/60 mph. Doesn't happen all of the time but it does most of the time. I'm thinking maybe balance/alignment/bad stabilizer. I just did a bunch of front end work. New U-joints, ball joints, bearings, and seals and everything else looked good so I have no idea what else it could be.
I have an 05 tj 4.0 6spd with about 90k on it. It is lifted 3.25" with 33s. The shakes started about 6 months ago but it was more like bump steer and I didn't have the funds to fix it nor was I traveling much so I let it ride. About a month ago it developed into a speed sensitive (45 mph) full on death wobble so I rotated the tires and it still did not go away. There is no play anywhere that I can tell when I do a dry steer test. The alignment seems to be ok. My only guess is that the tires were out of balance and when I rotated them one of the ones from the back was out of balance as well which landed me back to square one. I'll attach a few pictures of the steering. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
You can't tell anything about the condition of your steering parts from still pictures. Do a dry steer test as described below to identify any worn or loose parts:
Dry Steering Test
Do a dry steering test by having someone sit in your Jeep (with the tires on the ground) and continuously turn the steering wheel back and forth from about the 11 to 1 position while you lay under the front end and watch and feel for any lateral play in any steering or suspension joints. Check both track bar ends, the tie rod and drag link ends. Also check control arm bushings.
Although rotational movement in the tie rod and drag link is normal and necessary, there should be no end movement at all in the joints. There also should be no movement in the track bar ends.
Same issue and I'm only running 31's on a stock suspension. I get a slight wobble at 55/60 mph. Doesn't happen all of the time but it does most of the time. I'm thinking maybe balance/alignment/bad stabilizer. I just did a bunch of front end work. New U-joints, ball joints, bearings, and seals and everything else looked good so I have no idea what else it could be.
A bad stabilizer will not cause those issues. You should be able to drive your Jeep without a stabilizer (more correctly called a steering dampener) and not notice any difference. It is simply there to absorb jars to the rest of the steering components by uneven road surfaces.
I have an intermittent wobble (will not call it a DW) that shows up around 50mph. It sometimes does it, sometimes not. More often than not.
1995 YJ
31X10.50R15LT tires.
The front, driver side tire has wear on the inside edge only. The other 3 tires have very little wear.
I am going to try the "Dry Steering Test" mentioned below.
I'm attaching 2 pics from front and rear of that tire. Suggestions on what to look for?
You can't tell anything about the condition of your steering parts from still pictures. Do a dry steer test as described below to identify any worn or loose parts:
Dry Steering Test
Do a dry steering test by having someone sit in your Jeep (with the tires on the ground) and continuously turn the steering wheel back and forth from about the 11 to 1 position while you lay under the front end and watch and feel for any lateral play in any steering or suspension joints. Check both track bar ends, the tie rod and drag link ends. Also check control arm bushings.
Although rotational movement in the tie rod and drag link is normal and necessary, there should be no end movement at all in the joints. There also should be no movement in the track bar ends.
A bad stabilizer will not cause those issues. You should be able to drive your Jeep without a stabilizer (more correctly called a steering dampener) and not notice any difference. It is simply there to absorb jars to the rest of the steering components by uneven road surfaces.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What Dennis said. You may want to remove the stabilizer during testing and until you have solved the problem.
Be careful chasing the problem as it probably has multiple causes and every time it shakes it can damage something else. It will also likely get worse the more you drive it like that.
Your springs and shocks are not factory and your track bar has been relocated by drilling a new hole. Is the rear this way too? You might need to get adjustable track bar for front and rear to get things lines up right.
Do you have cam bolts on the axle side of the lower control arms? What size are those tires?
Get your tires Road Force Balanced then get an alignment. Make sure to answer the questions above so you can be properly advised on what to tell the shop how to set your alignment (Toe and Caster).
As said before, there is no play except for rotational in the tie rod and drag link whenever I did the dry steer test. The tires are 33x10.5 and the rear track bar looks like it has a drop bracket. I do not have cam bolts. Tires were balanced properly but very well may have gotten out of balance since I bought them last year
Out of balance tires can trigger dw, but are not the cause. You may well have unbalanced tires, but I guarantee, there is also movement in a steering/suspension joint/s somewhere. That front track bar would be the first place I would study.
From what you described, "full on speed sensitive death wobble", I'm not sure you have DW. What you may have just plain old vibration from tires.
DW is generally not speed sensitive in that you encounter it every time at the same speed. It is caused by the axle having enough play in the suspension parts that it is allowed to vibrate from side to side setting up a harmonic. If you speed up beyond the point of vibration it does not stop. It is also a very violent vibration and is usually triggered by an imperfection in the road, a bump or pot hole. It is a violent shaking of the entire vehicle and can only be stopped by bringing the vehicle to a complete or near complete stop. Just slowing down will not do it.
I once had a set of Goodyear LT315/75R16s mounted on my 2000 Dodge 2500. At 35 to 40 miles an hour a vibration would begin. In the rear view mirror I could actually see the top of the tailgate rising and falling and could feed the steering wheel vibrate. It was the one rear tire that ultimately failed the road force balance. They replaced the tire.
Here is a link to an excellent posting on Death Wobble and how to fix it. There are three videos, the first goes into great detail on the front suspension of a vehicle with coil springs. The second video goes into solving the issues. The third video which is actually one to watch first is a short video of a JK with death wobble. While the videos are about JKs, they apply equally well to the TJ as well as the Dodge, Ford and other pickups.
I appreciate all of the good information and I've come up with a theory of what's happening. I believe I'm getting a vibration from an unbalanced tire and that sets in motion the real death wobble because it is uncontrollably violent and will not stop until I slow down to almost a complete stop, but I will do another dry steer test to see if I see anything else
You do need to get it to a shop that can do a good alignment on it and inspect all the components under the vehicle. Here is a video of someone doing the inspection of the components on a Dodge Ram to show you what we are talking about in the case of loose suspension parts:
I had a YJ that had 31's and had a death wobble at 60+mph. A new steering stabilizer fixed it.
I had a a Ford Super Duty that had a death wobble and it happened at the same spot on the same over pass every time I went over it....a new steering stabilizer fixed that.
Your stabilizer looks original. Swap it out for a new one from Rancho for 50 bucks.
I had a YJ that had 31's and had a death wobble at 60+mph. A new steering stabilizer fixed it. I had a a Ford Super Duty that had a death wobble and it happened at the same spot on the same over pass every time I went over it....a new steering stabilizer fixed that. Your stabilizer looks original. Swap it out for a new one from Rancho for 50 bucks.
I see that caster has already been mentioned but I will add this.
I had a death wobble issue with a JK running a 2.5 inch lift and 35's. It turned out to be getting adjustable lowers control arms and pushing the caster out from 4.2 (stock setting on a JK should be 4.2 to 4.8) out to 6 degrees. Once this was done, no more issue.
Yes I know this is a TJ and not a JK, but seeing that you have a lift, I figured I would add. Point being you may have to push the caster out past the recommended stock suspension setting to correct it.
I have pulled my trackbar off to inspect it and I see everywhere that there should be no movement in the joints but does that still apply when it is off of the jeep? Because I can move the frame side (ball joint?) with relative ease.
Guys - Death Wobble is so named because once it starts you have to bring the vehicle to an almost complete stop. For the YJ owner, it is all but impossible for a YJ to encounter DW because of the way the YJ is built - ie: leaf springs.
DW is when the axle (front or rear) moves sideways in an harmonic that shakes the entire vehicle. You can encounter it at low speed on a residential street or at speed.
The axles on the Jeep TJ (and JK) are attached to coil spring which in turn are attached to the frame. Since coil springs can flex sideways, the axle can move. To prevent that movement a track bar is used to tie one end of the axle to the frame on the other side. This allows the axle to move up and down but not have uncontrolled sideways movement.
Therefore, by removing the track bar and driving the vehicle you have put yourself in the prime condition of DW. If you did not encounter it, that is only because you did not encounter a bump that moved the axle sideways.
By definition, all vehicles with leaf springs are generally immune from DW except in extremely rare conditions. (ie: remove the u-bolts holding the axle to the springs could do it). The axle should be firmly held to the leaf spring assembly by the u-bolts and the leaf spring has little if any sideways movement. Somewhere on the forum is a story about a gentleman who picked up a brand new GMC pickup and encountered DW. When the dealer put it up on the life he discovered there were no u-bolts holding the front axle in place. It came from the factory that way.
Again - DW is a violent shaking of the vehicle and if allowed to continue over time it can actually destroy the vehicle. Second - it is NOT speed sensitive.
Vibrations, shimmies and poor handling can be caused by worn out ball joints, worn out tie rod ends, out of balance tires, out of round tires and poor alignment. The primary cause of DW is a track bar that is not tight and it won't take long to wallow out the bolt holes. On occasion caster well out of spec can set up DW conditions (think Wal-Mart cart).
Mightymen - check the ball joint by jacking up the wheel. Then grab the top and bottom of the tire and see if you can wobble the tire in the vertical axis. If not, then the ball joint is ok. Then grab the front and rear of the tire and try it in the horizontal axis. This will test the tie rod ends. It will not test the drag link because the other tire is still on the ground. If you can't move it, then it is ok.
The most likely cause of abnormal wear on the inside (or outside) of a time is camber out of spec. Some alignment shops will tell you that camber and caster cannot be adjusted on vehicles with solid axles, but that is not true. It is jut more difficult. Camber can be adjusted with shims and caster can be adjusted with adjustable lower control arms (lca) or with cam bolts. My TJ has cam bolts, they are less expensive than replacing the fixed lower control arms with adjustable ones, but are not cheap either. They are however, far cheaper than wearing out the tires early.
Back in the '70s Ford came out with the twin I beam front suspension in which the front axles (two) were attached to the frame opposite the wheel and had coils in the front. Since one end of the axle was attached to the frame, no track bar was needed. However, they front always seemed prone to sag which caused the bottoms of the wheels to be out further than the top so the inside of the tires wore out fairly quickly. They looked just like your one front tire.
A trip to the alignment shop is definitely in order.
RGreen: thanks for the reply. I am going to try your steps. I started with the dry test on the ground. Everything seems solid, although it's probably time to change those that have the boots worn.
FYI: I got an alignment done a week ago. Turns out the tires have gone bad. New tires yesterday, BFGoodrich All Terrain TA KO2 which I like a lot so far. New sidewall strength and work well on snow. But appears the alignment caused my wobble... Maybe shimmy is a better word. Agree: mine is not a death wobble.
And to clarify, after the alignment and tires, it is very smooth now... As much as a YJ can be. Haha!
Speed sensitive shimmies and DW is generally always (!!!) triggered by an imperfectly balanced or bad tire. Period. Sometimes a bump on the road can trigger DW but speed sensitive anything is generally caused by a bad or imperfectly balanced. tire. EVEN IF THEY WERE RECENTLY BALANCED BY A TIRE SHOP. Few tire shops take the time to get tires balanced perfectly, they generally will only take the time to get them to what they consider "good enough" which is never good enough for the type of front-end used by Wranglers and most pickup trucks.
The for DW to fully develop, that normally also takes something being loose after the triggering event (bad tire, bad tire balance, or bump on the road) has occurred. That loose component is often a track bar which should exhibit ZERO side-to-side movement as the steering is turned left/right by a helper. Or a loose ball joint, tie rod end, shock, etc.
I keep my tires well balanced and all of the steering system components tight so I haven't had a fully developed case of Death Wobble in something like 17 years. When I did experience that scary bout of full-on DW, it was caused by one of my front tires having lost a balancing weight. Getting the tires well balanced cured it.
And as Krisbman astutely said above, a bad steering stabilizer is NEVER the root cause of DW. Neither will installing a new steering stabilizer ever be the cure for DW. Although it can sometimes temporarily mask/suppress the DW symptoms causing some to incorrectly think it cured the DW... it did not.
Alright, the show's over guys. The dw and related shimmies are gone. For those that want to know, I got the tires rotated and balanced, still wobbling. I replaced the bad tie rod ends, still wobbling. I did another dry steer test and found a minuscule amount of movement in the track bar and decided to go big or go home and I ordered a metalcloak track bar. It took two weeks to ship and it was well worth the wait. Absolutely monstrous bolts let you torque that SOB till the cows come home. I drove to work this morning and hit every single bump in the road I could find and there were no wobbles whatsoever. Thanks to everyone for your input.
:thumb::thumb:...Good job. Track bar movement is probably the most comon source of DW, but often, it is combined with slight movement in multiple joints. Once DW starts, it doesn't take long to wear other joints in the steering linkage to where there is movement in those as well. Each DW experience takes its toll on the remaining hardware. Glad you solved it, now you can enjoy driving it again.
Thanks for updates on everything from death wobble to alignment issues to stabilizer bars. It's actually very helpful to know this information.
Thanks all!
Alright guys I don't think I'm out of the woods yet. I'm still getting some bumpsteer and I could have sworn yesterday on my drive home it wanted to start wobbling. I double checked the torque on every nut and bolt and everything is tight. I'll be doing another dry steer test tonight to confirm that there is no movement. My thoughts are that it is either the track bar bolt hole on the back side of the axle mount is wallowed out which doesn't make much sense seeing how I drilled it out for the new track bar. Or possibly control arms. They are stock arms and I have a 3.25" lift. Any ideas?
I checked the tire pressure last night and I guess when I had the tires balanced they put more air in them. They were at almost 40 psi!! I dropped it down to about 26 and a lot of the squirrelliness went away but it's still got something loose underneath because I got another episode of dw on my way to work and luckily the guy behind me was paying attention because I had to almost stop in the middle of the highway. I'm seriously thinking it's the control arms so I will check those asap. Ideas?
3" of lift is just about the max without longer lower control arms to still maintain a decent caster angle. While not enough caster may not cause wobble, it can make it easier to happen. I would get it on an alignment rack and see what the caster is...also check your toe-in. It may be time to consider a pair of adjustable lower control arms on the front.
For restoring the caster angle at the front axle, yes. They just aren't a good choice for the rear axle when the pinion angle needs to be raised for a CV driveshaft.
Cam bolts are not cheap either. I have them in my TJ with stock suspension and they were $68 for the parts and $85 to install. Adjustable LCAs would be about $200 plus installation. But, then you would have new LCAs that are adjustable and do a better job than the cam bolts. If I knew then what I know now, I would have gotten the adjustable LCAs and let the shop install them.
But after two years, the Cam bolts seem to still be doing their job as the TJ drives just great with no pull or vibration. Of course it did get new shoes last fall and they made a big difference.
The TJ is at stock height and stock size tires as it is all flat country down here. The off roading is forest service road and camp roads. No problem for a Jeep, but I wouldn't take an Accord down them. In fact, one spot is a notorious trap for two wheel drive pickups.
It'd take all of 20 minutes to install, just do one side at a time. You can tweak the cam bolts up yourself to increase your caster angle, increase them all the way up which will give enough additional caster to make a noticeable improvement. The caster angle is not critical, your goal is just to increase it back up enough to counteract how the suspension lift decreased it.
Thanks Jerry that's reassuring. Now I've seen your thoughts on this before for offroad use where you're at, but how do you think a good long arm kit would do as far as about 80% road driving and 20% light-medium trails
Having had a long-arm suspension on my previous TJ, there's not a single bolt-on long arm suspension kit I'd waste my $$$ on again. That long-arm kits ride better on the street is a marketing ploy and an old-wive's tale at the typical heights of suspension lifts. My present Currie short-arm 4" suspension lift rides and handles significantly better than my previous long-arm suspension lift did.
Ride quality at normal suspension lift heights is more a function of your shock absorber choice, the tire's Load Range where a Load Range C tire is optimal with a better ride than the stiffer D or E load range tires, plus having the correct tire pressure. Most tire shops grossly over-inflate the tires so the wear unevenly and ride too stiffly.
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