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Old 04-13-2012, 05:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by wwch99tj View Post
I run the AP-985 in mine with no problems
Is that a single or double platinum? I believe it only provides a center wire platinum firing tip.

From:Federal-Mogul - Champion Double-Platinum Power Spark Plugs
Quote:
Champion Double-Platinum Power spark plugs have platinum on both the center and ground electrodes. The center electrode is platinum fine wire that is riveted onto the nickel alloy center electrode. The ground electrode has a platinum pad welded to its surface.

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Old 04-13-2012, 06:18 PM   #32
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I work for a race team and spark plugs are open we can use any kind we want so of course we spend 2 days on a dyno to see which ones work the best. NGK and Denso plugs are the best I have seen. I did test autolits and on the first two pulls more power and after that nothing. So I would put the NGK in the autolits box and wave them around the paddock to other teams and they would switch.

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Old 04-13-2012, 06:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by stuckinwater

The double platinum or the non-double platinum ones?
Single platinum
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by wwch99tj

Single platinum
Ok. How much a piece?
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:32 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by stuckinwater

Ok. How much a piece?
Like $2 each
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by wwch99tj

Like $2 each
Ok. Nice
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Old 04-13-2012, 06:39 PM   #37
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Is that a single or double platinum? I believe it only provides a center wire platinum firing tip.
True, which is perfect for '99 and older distributor equipped 4.0l engines.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:43 PM   #38
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Ok so I havent been on in a bit, BUT I'm driving a 2001 2.5L 4 banger
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Old 04-14-2012, 11:36 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by joshbarb2
Ok so I havent been on in a bit, BUT I'm driving a 2001 2.5L 4 banger
For the four banger they are sayin to run the single platinum plugs.. Or at least that's what I got out of it
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:25 AM   #40
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I spent several years working in auto parts stores selling plugs. I can say this... don't bother with all those "fancy" plugs. The +4, the E3 and so on plugs never seem to deliver what they promise.

I personally use Autolight iridiums. Autolight because I never heard any complaints about them and iridium because it last longer.
So far they are working well.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:02 AM   #41
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I have had great success with Bosch Platinum's, they seem to be the only thing that my 67 Camaro likes, not sure why everyone knocks them. I am running Accel copper plugs in my 97 4.0, they work fine for me. You also need to remember that the car builders get money from the manufactures (champion) to use and suggest their products
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:45 AM   #42
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[QUOTE=Jerry Bransford;2254309]Autolite AP985 and Champion 3034 are two very good choices. Both are single tipped platinum that will perform well for 100k miles. QUOTE]

Proper gap on these should be what?
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:15 AM   #43
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.035
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:19 AM   #44
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These are Bosch. What type are they? And are they good?

Attachment 114007
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:23 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckinwater
These are Bosch. What type are they? And are they good?
Platinum +2 I tried them and didn't like them
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:55 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by stuckinwater View Post
These are Bosch. What type are they? And are they good?

Attachment 114007
As said above, that is Bosch's gimmicky Plus-2 plug and in our Jeep engines, it (and its big brother the Plus-4) it just doesn't perform well. A Bosch engineer opined years ago that it was probably that they don't have the proper heat range for our Jeep engines. Those plugs work ok in some other vehicles but I've yet to read of anyone who had good long-term results with the Plus-2 or Plus-4 plug in a Jeep engine.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:04 AM   #47
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Something else to consider.


Plugs for the newer systems have a much larger gap then the ones for older Jeeps.
Why? They use a higher voltage to fire them, to jump the gap. One of the reasons for platinum and iridium, to hold up to those voltages vs copper.

On an older jeep, non DIS, you may find that dropping a new style plug into it may actually make it run worse. Your coil may not be up to the job.
It was designed to fire a .035 gap plug, not one that's set at .060.

What happens is the coil cannot provide the power for the plug to do it's job properly.
And a weak spark leads to poor combustion.

Dropping those new wizz bang plugs in may make it run like it needs a tune up.

If it's an older Jeep, and you have no idea of the age of the coil, it may be a wise thing to replace it when doing your plugs.

It's all part of doing a good tune up. Having the best plugs, cap, rotor, and wires money can buy won't do you a bit of good if the coil isn't doing it's thing.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:07 PM   #48
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Dropping a platinum or iridium plug into an older engine will never (!) make it run worse. You will never get worse results replacing a conventional plug with the right platinum or iridium tipped plugs. Never.

And it does not take any more voltage to fire a platinum or iridium tipped plug than it does to fire a conventional plug. In fact, they could be coated with rubber and they would still fire due to the extremely high voltage sent to the spark plug. And furthermore, it can actually take less voltage to fire platinum or iridium tipped plugs. Less voltage is required for the smaller center electrode they use which results in better ignitability. The smaller the electrode, the more centralized the electrical potential is around the electrode tip. The required voltage can be reduced because the level of the electric field is made stronger and local insulation (air gap and electrode surface oxidation) breaks down more easily.

And one more fact... it takes between 3 and 5KV less voltage to fire an iridium tipped plug than the nickle plated tip a conventional spark plug uses requires. Nearly all spark plug manufacturers use copper cores, even with platinum or iridium tipped plugs, but copper is too soft for the electrode so copper electrodes are coated with nickle for conventional spark plugs which technically has a higher resistance than iridium or platinum does.

And because platinum and iridium tipped plugs don't erode the gap nearly as quickly as a conventional plug does, an older ignition system (lower voltage) will have less trouble firing the plugs over a longer period of time. The more the gap erodes and becomes bigger as happens with conventional spark plugs, the more voltage it takes to fire that plug.

A couple good articles...

What's New In Spark Plugs
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/DYK..._Ignitions.pdf

The second article is especially important as it explains why our 2000 and newer DIS 4.0L engines don't do well as long with conventional spark plugs. "The use of nickel-alloy or single (I.E. single-tipped) precious metal spark plugs in vehicles equipped with waste spark ignitions will result in more aggressive gap erosion and shorter spark plug life." Which is why I always recommend dual-tipped platinum or iridium tipped plugs and not conventional style plugs which don't hold up as well to how the newer 4.0L's type of DIS ignitions fire the spark plugs twice as often as in conventional or coil-on-plug systems do.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:46 PM   #49
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.035
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:15 PM   #50
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Just thought I'd throw a word in on E3. Ran them for about one week. Threw a code, mileage went in the hopper (like 10mpg). Changed back to champion 7034 and back to about 16 mpg and no codes. Also fwiw, I had to regap all of my 7034's as they came from the factory gapped at 0.040 or 0.045, I can't remember which.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:17 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwch99tj

Platinum +2 I tried them and didn't like them
I just put in the Bosch single platinum plugs and new BWD select wires. About to go for a drive and see if I like the single platinum better than the double platinum
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:02 PM   #52
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Something else to consider.


Plugs for the newer systems have a much larger gap then the ones for older Jeeps.
Why? They use a higher voltage to fire them, to jump the gap. One of the reasons for platinum and iridium, to hold up to those voltages vs copper.

On an older jeep, non DIS, you may find that dropping a new style plug into it may actually make it run worse. Your coil may not be up to the job.
It was designed to fire a .035 gap plug, not one that's set at .060.

What happens is the coil cannot provide the power for the plug to do it's job properly.
And a weak spark leads to poor combustion.

Dropping those new wizz bang plugs in may make it run like it needs a tune up.

If it's an older Jeep, and you have no idea of the age of the coil, it may be a wise thing to replace it when doing your plugs.

It's all part of doing a good tune up. Having the best plugs, cap, rotor, and wires money can buy won't do you a bit of good if the coil isn't doing it's thing.
Yup, I been building engines for a long time and I remember even some of the OEM screw ups with ignition.

One of the most dramatic was when GM first came out with HEI..Remember HEI?...In short order, lots of new cars with HEI were stumbling and missing and running like crap. LOL, the super increased voltage offered by HEI was burning holes thru the distributer rotors and grounding fire from the coil via distrib shaft

GM's knee jerk reaction was to REDUCE spark plug gap from their HUGE .065 to .045 while they scratched their heads and came up with other means to contain all that spark voltage.

This was a real embarrassment because HEI was devoloped as part of their efforts to increase fuel milage, be more efficient, produce more HP/CI and so on...The increased spark gap offered a much larger and hotter spark and would allow more aggressive advance, better flame propagation across the piston face, and sill run clean...

So Ok, the big three learned from all this and the guys like AC/Delco, Champion and other OEM ignition suppliers did too...In FACT, these same guys tried to warn GM about the weak link in GM's proposed HEI system beore they put it into production, but GM risked it anyway.

Fast forward to today...Car makers today have gotten lots smarter because of EPA regs and federal inforcement of recalls due to safety AND faulty/unreliable automotive components and systems.....,HEY it's a fact that all OEM's are forced to quarantee thier engines will NOT pollute for a number of years after the normal 3 year/36K whole car warranty expires, right?...And like never before the OEMS are in a fierce competition to produce engines with as much power as possible for less MPG, and as clean as possible.

That said, I'm not going to waste my beer money on fancy dancy stuff like spark plugs made by OEM suppliers when those plugs aren't already speced by that OEM...It's all just marketing hype designed to separate you from your money...If they were all they are cracked up to be, they would already be screwed into your heads by Mopar.

Look, the old hotrodders motto used to be, "If a little bit is just right, too much is better."...So, if platinum plugs are good and GM says so, then double platinum MUST be mobetter, right?...LOL, yeah, right
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:08 PM   #53
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These are Bosch. What type are they? And are they good?

Attachment 114007
Bosch has a bad rep for their electrodes breaking off and causing expensive engine damage...Google it.

Besides that, how many cars today leave the factory with Bosch sparkplugs?

Personally, I'll never buy another Bosch product again because it's been my experience that everything I ever tried of theirs was junk-from 02 sensors to very expensive dishwashers.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:07 PM   #54
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...If they were all they are cracked up to be, they would already be screwed into your heads by Mopar.
You could not be more correct. Jeeps come off the assembly line perfectly configured and cannot be improved upon!!!
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:31 PM   #55
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It's always nice to have things in writing. The only written document I see for my Jeep's engine, regarding spark plugs, is what's on the emissions label in the engine compartment. I am not aware of any Technical Service Bulletins or other Chrysler documentation to the contrary.

Just saying about what's certain. That doesn't mean one can't listen to the various quasi expert opinions out there and experiment. I think you had better pay careful attention to the heat range characteristics of the spark plug if you do.

If some parts guy says you can use this or that plug as an alternative, ask him to provide that to you in writing. Are you expecting a blank look in return?

Even the oil companies, after proclaiming how great and wonderful and long lasting their super dupper hyped up synthetic motor oil is, will bail out and tell you to revert to your Owner Manual. Big chickens, aren't they? Cluck, cluck, cluck.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:47 PM   #56
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There are a couple in this thread that aren't paying attention (or purposely refuse to pay attention) to the differences between conventional ignition systems and the newer DIS ignitions used in 2000 and newer 4.0L engines. There ARE differences between older and newer DIS system and to try to claim dual-tipped platinums and iridiums aren't a better choice for the newer ignitions makes me think a few just want to be contrary or argue no matter what the subject.

Older distributor-based ignitions are happy with nearly any technology plug but newer DIS ignitions used in 2000 and newer 4.0L engines will cut the life of a conventional spark plug in half. Jeep only installed conventional spark plugs in DIS ignitions because it probably saved them $6 per vehicle. not because conventional plugs were the best plugs for the DIS system.

I dunno why some of those are so adamant on using the strongest, most rugged, best technology, etc. elsewhere in their Jeeps but refuse to pay $2-3 more per plug that is known to outperform conventional plugs by most reasonable people.

An additional $12-18 total for plugs that will perform well for at least 3X longer in a DIS ignition-equipped 4.0L engine should be a no-brainer... at least it should be to me.

I guess the old adage that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink holds true with some folks.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:49 PM   #57
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Bosch has a bad rep for their electrodes breaking off and causing expensive engine damage...Google it.

Besides that, how many cars today leave the factory with Bosch sparkplugs?

Personally, I'll never buy another Bosch product again because it's been my experience that everything I ever tried of theirs was junk-from 02 sensors to very expensive dishwashers.
^^ This.. A friend of mine in MI owns a repair shop, he will not allow his Techs to touch a motor that has Bosch plugs in it for that reason!
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:46 AM   #58
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Bosch has a bad rep for their electrodes breaking off and causing expensive engine damage...Google it.

Besides that, how many cars today leave the factory with Bosch sparkplugs?

Personally, I'll never buy another Bosch product again because it's been my experience that everything I ever tried of theirs was junk-from 02 sensors to very expensive dishwashers.
Some vehicles do come with Bosch as OE. A 2004 Accura TSX (that's from the Honda family) comes to mind. It specifies Bosch Iridiums.

Would I use Bosch Iridiums in my vehicles (two Grand Caravans V6s and a Jeep)? Bosch will say I can but would I get the same performance as the OE plugs which keep my 3.3L, 3.8L and 4.0L engines purring like kittens? Would Bosch even guarantee (in writing) that I would get equal/better performance for those particular applications? Not likely. I will pass and avoid the unknown. The bad experiences with Bosch, posted on the web, aren't encouraging either.

No doubt there is less work and some positive experiences with certain double platinum spark plugs in the Jeeps. The 100,000 mile change interval is there to avoid the plugs sticking in the cylinder heads, not necessarily because the plugs will be worn out. In fact, they won't likely be worn out. Then again, there are lots of experiences posted on the web with regard to stuck spark plugs, a horror story I haven't had to face yet. Even with the double platinums in my V6s (Champion PPs are called for), I won't knowingly let them sit in there for much over 60,000 miles. I may run the copper core plugs in my Jeep a little over 30,000 miles ....... so, I change them twice as often, or thereabouts. Not a big deal for the Jeep.

I use the plug that's specified per the emissions label, no guesswork. Some of the big hemis also use copper core plugs, so the 4.0L is in good company.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:13 AM   #59
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Yup, every 10 bucks I save buys a 12 pack, yaknow?
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:02 PM   #60
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Some vehicles do come with Bosch as OE. A 2004 Accura TSX (that's from the Honda family) comes to mind. It specifies Bosch Iridiums.

I use the plug that's specified per the emissions label, no guesswork. Some of the big hemis also use copper core plugs, so the 4.0L is in good company.
Now that someone has stated their particular vehicle specifies a PARTICULAR Bosch exotic metal plug, then that's EXACTLY the plug I would use in that vehicle.

Gent's, someone here claimed spark plug makers cut their prices to tempt auto makers to use their plug...Yeah, right....Actually what happens is the OE engineers develope exacting criteria for spark plugs, wires, coils and all the rest, then offer to test and perhaps buy from the manufacturer who can meet their requirements at the lowest cost and highest QUALITY.

If Bosch happens to also assist the OEM in designing a certain plug that works best, then you can believe the OEM will by their plugs as long as they are affordable and maintain quality control.

Yeah, all major parts manufacturers are joined at the hip with the car makers in R&D to some extent, and it's thru this experience they both learn from each other and it's also a great chance for the part makers to expand their market beyond retail/internet parts counters and late night infomercials.

Getting back to these wizbang exotic materials and designer plugs and YOUR car, consider this:

You guys fall for the marketing hype, then ask each other what gap to run? Some even say the plug of their choice ships with one gap, but they regap them back to OE label specs before they install them...LOL

Wow......Are you ever confused, and it's no wonder due to the skillful marketing and names and claims the aftermarket makers come up with to lure you AWAY from solid automotive engineering science and the FACTS of same.

Ya gotta remember a lot of what the spark plug makers claim is true...Yeah, with their plug you will maybe get a hotter spark, and yeah yeah exotic metals will conduct better, and live longer, and so on....BUT do those claims if true really work out in application?....Prolly not.

Go back to basic combustion cycle science that was learned WAY back, and you might understand better what I've been trying to say about fancy dancy sparkplugs.

Basic cumbustion cycle science states that the combustion cycle is a timed event, where certain variables are based on certain nonvariables.....I.E., how long it takes for the coil to discharge and resaturate, and how long it then takes for the spark to travel to the plug, then how long it takes the plug to create a spark, then how long it takes for the spark to ignite the fuel/air charge, then how long it takes for the flame/burn to spread, then how long it takes for the flame to completely burn the fuel/air charge...Yep, all that is dialed in when the car leaves the factory, and based on that, ECUs are programed with fuel tables and ignition tables and those tables stored where the ECU then controls fuel rate and timing based on those nonvariables I mentioned.

Are you getting the idea yet? Is it to my advantage if that plug can create a larger spark and make the fuel charge burn faster and so on, if I ain't a high tech pro/semi pro racer who can then tweek my computer and alter my maps and curves to take advantage of those abilities? NO it is NOT to my advantage and often what happens is the engine actually runs worse or NO advantages are gained at all.

Come on guys, get smart about all aftermarket hype....I admit all the major plug makers do it, but that's because they are building for two markets..The OEM side and the public side...they ALWAYS oversell to the public, but you can trust the OEMs to make smarter selections when the plugs they chose are made to their design specs by those same makers.

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