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Old 08-21-2010, 05:56 PM   #1
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Boohoo - My Pinion Seals



Pretty bad, eh?

Rear


Front


There is a private Jeep Mechanic right down the street from me that I want to support, but he doesn't make it easy as every time I drive by and chew on his ear for an estimate it's way over the price of my 'normal' mechanic right around the corner. The Jeep guy quoted me 5-6 hours to do these seals. My normal guy said 1.5-2 hours.

Would love to attempt this myself but I don't have the tools and from the reading I've done the drive shaft bolt sounds like it could be a real PITA.

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Old 08-21-2010, 06:22 PM   #2
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Mine are doing the same thing, exept its the axle shaft seals. I'm not sure what to do about it either... the mechanic I took it to said it was going to be like $600 to fix to. How much did your quote go for?

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Old 08-21-2010, 06:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p1zzaman View Post
Mine are doing the same thing, exept its the axle shaft seals. I'm not sure what to do about it either... the mechanic I took it to said it was going to be like $600 to fix to. How much did your quote go for?
I hope I have my parts naming correct.
Ran by Jeep and bought the two seals there - $20.88 x 2
Mechanic is $70 per hour. Said $210 tops. Sounds on par with the guys here have changed theirs.

I'll plan to join him as he does the job so I can see just how easy it is when one has the tools... and a lift...

dang those photos are large, sorry. Will fix that.
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Old 08-21-2010, 07:55 PM   #4
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The bad part is I think if Jeeps are the same as Chevy trucks then the yoke has to come off the pinion shaft to change the seal, and also if Jeeps are like Chevy's then its gonna be a royal pain for whoever takes it off.

I have one axle end leaking, all I can say is thank God for the open diff when seal goes bad
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:27 PM   #5
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I replaced my pinon seal on the rear of my TJ. It was not bad at all. The only thing to worry about would be how tight to torque the pinon nut. I believe that most or all of the TJs have what is called a crush. I believe this is to set you pinon gear teath mesh with the ring gear. I just tightned the nut and with some advice from local people left a very little bit of play in the pinon yoke.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:16 PM   #6
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If you don't feel confident doing the job your self, definatly go the the cheaper of the two mechanics that you mentioned. This repair is not specific to Jeeps and any mechanic can do it easily. If you do it your self, just index the nut in relation to the pinion shaft and then tighten it back to the same place and you will be fine. Just know that the pinion nut is toqued real tight and you will need a lot of leverage to turn it.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:43 PM   #7
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That doesn't look like an axle seal, it looks like just a pinion seal. And a member here has done them his self, and says even going in blind its easy.

If you have an Autozone or Advance Auto near you, you may be able to "rent" tools from them. Its not as difficult as you'd think.

Just spen $15 on a Haynes or Chilton repair guide and you'll be fine. And you'll save yourself a few hundred bucks.
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Old 08-22-2010, 07:01 AM   #8
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I replaced my pinon seal on the rear of my TJ. It was not bad at all. The only thing to worry about would be how tight to torque the pinon nut. I believe that most or all of the TJs have what is called a crush. I believe this is to set you pinon gear teath mesh with the ring gear. I just tightned the nut and with some advice from local people left a very little bit of play in the pinon yoke.
Last one I did I had to use a torch to heat it up, cause the nut had been on there since 1976 and I broke a 3/4 breaker bar trying to get it loose. I've never done one on a Jeep , but I'm assuming its the same as the rest since Dana is Dana.
The ones I love are the axle seals, people ask me how much to change them, I tell them $80 and they are amazed,
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:14 AM   #9
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You can replace a pinion seal for $20 and nothing more than common hand tools in under an hour. I had never done one before the first time I needed to but I tackled it successfully without problem. That anyone would say that job would take 5-6 hours needs to have his head examined.

It's not much harder to change the axle seals. I never replaced a Dana 35c axle seal so I'm not sure what is involved there but I can change my Dana 44's axle seal in an hour. It does require a press to do that particular seal replacement but any shop could press the part (bearing retainer) on in a few seconds for you.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:21 AM   #10
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Hey Jerry if you've never done a D35c then your in for a really really easy treat
On a D35C step (1) Remove the diff cover (2) remove the little bolt from the carrier (3) slide the big shiny pin out of the carrier (4) push the axle in a little (5) remove the "c" clip (6) slide the axle out of the shaft

Its that easy, good way to empty the diff fro oil replacement too

I can do a axle seal on a D35c in about 1 hour,
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:33 AM   #11
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Thanks Wolfen. I knew getting the D35's axle shaft out was that easy, I was more curious about its actual seal replacement process. I just looked in my FSM and it looks like the D35's seal is much more easily accessed and replaced once the axle shaft has been removed. On the D44, the seal is on the axle shaft (outboard of the bearings) and the bearing retainer has to be removed to get the bearings off to get the seal off & replace it.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:33 AM   #12
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The only bad part to doing this job is if you over tighten the pinion nut the Crush Sleeve is ruined which means the whole diff needs to come apart and will have to be set back up again, thats why the guy from around the corner quoted 5-6hrs. If somehow the torque on the pinion nut goes wrong it has the potential of blowing up the diff, if it's driven. So basically if you take it to the 1-2hr mechanic and he screws it up he will have to do a 5-6 hr job for the price of a 2hr job. The guy around the corner was being realistic in knowing he might screw up the crush sleeve.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:35 AM   #13
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Thanks Wolfen. I knew getting the axle shaft out was that easy, I was more curious about the actual seal replacement process. I just looked in my FSM and it looks like the D35's seal is much more easily accessed and replaced once the axle shaft has been removed. On the D44, the seal is on the axle shaft (outboard of the bearings) and the bearing retainer has to be removed to get the bearings off to get the seal off & replace it.
On a d35c the seal is pressed into the axle shaft so all you have to do is pop it out and using a large socket,pipe or seal driver drive a new one back in. The D44 is set up like an older D35 without the C clip like in the Cherokees.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:38 AM   #14
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The only bad part to doing this job is if you over tighten the pinion nut the Crush Sleeve is ruined which means the whole diff needs to come apart and will have to be set back up again, thats why the guy from around the corner quoted 5-6hrs. If somehow the torque on the pinion nut goes wrong it has the potential of blowing up the diff. So basically if you take it to the 1-2hr mechanic and he screws it up he will have to do a 5-6 hr job for the price of a 2hr job. The guy around the corner was being realistic in knowing he might screw up the crush sleeve.
It would be hard to overtighten the pinion nut that much without being an idiot with an impact wrench. Tightening it to 160-180 ft-lbs. is hard enough to do with a torque wrench but tightening it to that amount works fine once the pinion seal is replaced.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:50 AM   #15
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Agreed, but if the gears aren't meshed and set up exactly where they were previously your going to have problems.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:16 PM   #16
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Agreed, but if the gears aren't meshed and set up exactly where they were previously your going to have problems.
If you had actually ever done a pinion seal replacement yourself, you would have known that the gears are not removed, changed, disturbed, or even seen when doing a pinion seal replacement. The yoke is removed, the seal is removed and replaced, and the yoke is reinstalled. That is all.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:28 PM   #17
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I have and do understand but the crush sleeve is the part I'm talking about, thats why you have to check the rotational torque with an inch lbs torque wrench before you remove the pinion nut. It's the crush sleeve that affects the pinion bearing preload, if it's not correct it will come apart and take the ring and pinion with it. Check the FSM.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:36 PM   #18
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The crush sleeve sets the preload but it has nothing to do with how the gears mesh or how they set up against each other. Once the crush sleeve is properly set the first time, the pinion nut can be removed and then reinstalled with a minimal amount of fuss by torquing the nut to between 160 and 180 ft-lbs. together with some red Locktite.

I used to think it was super-critical too until Tom Wood assured me years ago that I would be ok by using that procedure after buying one of his u-bolt style pinion yokes when I was still running a Dana 35. His simple procedure worked and my gears didn't fall apart afterward for me or the guy who is still running my old D35. Not to mention the countless Jeepers who use the same procedure when replacing their D35's pinion seals.
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:44 PM   #19
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Hey Jerry if you read the FSM then you need to know that the seal install tool isn't the only thing that the seal in a D35 can be installed with, you can also use a same size socket if ya got one for a tugboat OR a piece of 2X4 and a mallet hammer, simply tap the new seal in as far as it will go then remove reg 2X4 and use the hammer and a 9/16" socket to GENTLY tap the seal the rest of the way in. Since I work in a fab shop we made a tool with two sides on it, one for the shaft seal and one for the pinion seal that will fit most vehicles Its heavy, cause its made from solid round stock, ( necessary due to the milling and lathing required) but it works GREAT as long as you go straight in.
But lie you said once the crush sleve is crushed its set, just don't try to yank on the pinion shaft
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Old 08-22-2010, 01:45 PM   #20
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But it's possible, don't you think the OP should be informed of the possibility? I've seen it happen or are you going to pay for a new rear end for the poor guy which means we don't have to worry about the possibility of it occuring in the first place which would make most of these posts completely redundant? Oh ya and good for you and Tom Woods.
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Old 08-22-2010, 03:10 PM   #21
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Whatís all this talk about axle shaft seals, its clearly the front and rear pinion seals leaking.

In any case, Hottinroof do you know how to add gear oil to your axles? if you decide to wait on the repair the least you can do is make sure the axles are not starving for oil. im sure they are not I have seen leaks much worse than that.

Iím sure there are plenty of threads about adding axle gear oil around here, and if not im sure one of these goons will be happy to explain. I donít want to get involved and come back to this thread and see someone says im a idiot because i didnít recommend synthetic oil or something. After all what do i know im just a state master certified mechanic.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:00 PM   #22
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You need to remember one thing about this forum, you will not be called an idiot by anybody on here that I know because you recommend something, at worst you may be corrected if your wrong, or told your right when your right.

Oh an to the OP, if you live near Va Beach, Va, come on over to my place, bring me a pinion shaft seal and $30 and we'll share a few beers after I change it for ya, and I guarantee that my work is the best it can be
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:57 AM   #23
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Away from the forum for a day and look at all this info!

Excellent guys, thank you - apologize for the mix up of naming, I had understood these two to be pinion seals but seemed like others here (in my searching) were calling this axle seals which I had thought was located elsewhere. Learning as I go.

The drive shaft looks to be connected with 4 small nuts and a single large nut connecting it to the diff... I need a manual...

Really appreciate this info - I just couldn't gather enough info through my WF searches.

QUESTIONS:
Help me get setup at home...
What tools do I need for this job and where do I get a seal puller?
Where do you guys go to purchase tools? Harbor Freight?
What manual do you recommend for a novice?
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:50 PM   #24
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Well your gonna need one of two things, either a FSM ( Factory Service Manual) or a Haynes manual.
But yes the drive shaft is held onto the yoke with 4 little screws, those hold two small bands one on each side. Now before you even begin to read a manual or start the work I HIGHLY suggest you do two things, (1) set the parking brake! (2) CHOCK THE WHEELS!!!! both in front and in back sop that the Jeep won't roll either way. Follow those two standard rules and I found out you WILL live longer

Oh a Haynes manual is about 12 bucks at Autozone or Advance.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:57 PM   #25
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I wasn't under the impression I would have to screw with any gears or mark the placement of anything.

This is accurate?
Universityofjeep.ca

Good tips Ken. I read on another thread about having it in 4L? Does this help out by locking the gears?

I know my $240+ is better spent on tools to do the job than the mechanic's labor costs - but it's intimidating, LOL, this is my rear diff we're talking about.
- breaker bar
- torque wrench
- seal puller tool
- RTV?

I guess I can always call the mechanic if I hose something up.

How to fill the diff with oil once I'm done - this is where the diff plug comes in I take it. I'm off to the search feature.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:09 PM   #26
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Got it...

From a 99' TJ Service Manual (mine is an '01 - shouldn't matter)

"(8) Refill the differential with Mopart Hypoid
Gear Lubricant, or equivalent, to bottom of the fill
plug hole. Refer to the Lubricant Specifications in
this group for the quantity necessary."


From a previous thread titled "TJ diff fluid"

[jpdocdave]"...either way get yourself 5 qts of 80w90 gear oil, a gasket scraper, and a tube of rtv and you're ready to cause some damage."
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotTinRoof View Post
I wasn't under the impression I would have to screw with any gears or mark the placement of anything.

This is accurate?
Universityofjeep.ca

Good tips Ken. I read on another thread about having it in 4L? Does this help out by locking the gears?

I know my $240+ is better spent on tools to do the job than the mechanic's labor costs - but it's intimidating, LOL, this is my rear diff we're talking about.
- breaker bar
- torque wrench
- seal puller tool
- RTV?



I guess I can always call the mechanic if I hose something up.

How to fill the diff with oil once I'm done - this is where the diff plug comes in I take it. I'm off to the search feature.
Dunno never had a locker in my life so I've never locked gears but I would leave it either in park or reverse, whatever trans you have, as far as tools, yea your gonna need a breaker bar I recommend a 1/2" drive min, torque wrench......Definitely!!!!!! Always torque suspension and drive train parts properly. I've never used a seal puller on a pinion, couldn't get the darn thing in there I just use a piece of J shaped 1/8" round stock and yank it out. or get really po'd and us ea punch. but RTV, maybe depends on the seal some don;t require it some do, some don;t recommend it some do I guess it depends on which one you get. The most important thing to do is make sure of two things (1) its in straight and (2) its facing the correct way. Put one in backwards, you might as well not even put one in.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:56 AM   #28
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man - we need to rename this thread Pinion Seals... a lot of good info here - any mod around?

I found and downloaded a service repair manual for a 99 Wrangler TJ. Close enough to an 01? I would hope...

Anyway, looking through it in the 03 Diff and Driveline section,No mention of the D44 axle. I see 181 FBI Axle, 194 RBI Axle, 216 RBI Rear Axle. Through a google search I found that:

192 mm=7.56 inches...a dana 35 ring gear is 7 9/16 inch diameter
216 mm=8.5 inches...dana 44 ring gear is 8.5 inch diameter

Found this most excellent link "Dana 35 and Dana 30 Pinion Seal Replacement" though not a D44...
Tech Report - Extreme Duty Rocker Replacement
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:53 AM   #29
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The 181 RBI is the front Dana 30, the 194 RBI is the rear Dana 35c axle, and the 216 RBI is the optional rear Dana 44.

Yes, the axles are the same between '97 and '06 so that '99 FSM will work for your '01.
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Old 08-25-2010, 11:59 AM   #30
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Thanks Jerry

What size socket do I need for the that haaa-uge shaft nut? I thought read somewhere it's an 11/2"?

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