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Old 07-05-2008, 04:36 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Howie View Post
Have you checked the radiator for mud?

Have had that problem in the past and hosed it out real good.

Just a thought.

dave
we dont get much mud aroud here but the radiator is a brand new aluminum
one
and right after I changed out the radiator the water pump went bad
so theres a new water pump on there to
new hoses (you should change the hoses when you install a new radiator or water pump)

there a new thermostat and I'm running the highflo 2 speed taurus fan
but just to see if it makes a diffrence I put on my mechanical fan (wich is new and has a new fan clutch)
that made no diffrence so I put the electric fan back on

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Old 07-05-2008, 04:38 PM   #32
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I tried the fan switch as well. Same issue.

It could be global warming....

dAvE

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Old 07-05-2008, 04:53 PM   #33
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your converter is locking up at crusing speed and that why the rpm drop. When it is unlocked like when you apply load to the tranny goiing up a hill or passing it allows for some slippage to allow your motor to move up in rpm to a level that makes more hp. If your converter is not locking properly it will allow this slippage all the time and create heat. if as you say you are noticing a drop in rpm almost like another shift at cruisning speeds your convertor is probably working properly.
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well in my 97 ram i had a propper working cooling system, I went from 210 to a 180 and my truck never went above 180, not even while towing. We even had a thermo gun to double check the temps. like i said earlier as long as your cooling system is working properlly. We do this all the time in boats as well with the same results. hence why they make different tstat ranges for the same vehicles.

if your vehicle is having cooling issues and is running hotter then it should at highway speeds then yes dropping your tstat wont help. becasue there is a problem elsewhere. or you have a sticky thermostat.
now i know on my trans the lock up converter disengages at highway speeds or when cruising and ill drop a couple hundred RPMs. there is a plug for it and i can try unpluging it for a while. form the begining i have had a suspicion on my torque converter.
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Old 07-05-2008, 04:58 PM   #34
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rawcon my trans tunnel gets really hot to it almost feels like the heater is on your foot

my dads jeep has a standard in it and his drivers foot gets real hot to
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:15 AM   #35
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Thanks lloyd i had it backwards on what was locked and unlocked meant.

As far as a Tstat and its function it has a 2 roles. The first is to help quickly heat up the motor to a normal operating temp, 2nd is to maintain that temp whatever it may be set too.thats why they have options. 165/180/195 its called a "cooling system" not a heating system.

As far as my TJ running at 210 with no tstat in it i would disagree, it would just take longer to heat up and get you bad fuel milage becasue the comp sets itself up to run really rich in order to heat up the motor to above 160 i think. and in my opinion it will most likely run cooler then 210. pending on how well the cooling system is working. Exactly how the picture posted above is what im talking about. his photo shows his jeep running at much closer to 180. which your saying cant happen. its exactly what my 97 dodge ram use to run at. it would hold 180 in the desert or in the snow.

Yea the TJ motor is designed to run hotter and cleaner but that for more or less is for smog reasons. it doesnt mean its running at optimal settings overall, its just running at optimal settings for smog purposes which for manufactures is more important then performance for most models . thats why putting on aftermarket parts gets you HP and Torque gains.

I was wheeling today in the big bear area it was 85 degrees at a high altitude and we where in 4 low most of the time for about 5 hours. my motor stayed at 210 or below the whole time and my tranny never got hot. its not till i jump on the highway will it start to heat up everything. which is what i find so wierd. im gonna be looking at my flow rates next and checking for hot spots with my thermal gun
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Old 07-06-2008, 03:25 AM   #36
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so drilling the hole in the stat didnt help I was thinking of ordering up a high flow stat and housing
I cant find a high flow water pump for a 2001 I can find one for 1999 and older

on my jeep I couldnt find any hot spots with the thermo gun
but then again it only starts to get hot with the ac on
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Old 07-06-2008, 07:44 AM   #37
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Ill explain it for jerry. If you have enough radiator area and the outside temp is low enough and your vehicle doesnt run hot it will lower the temp. We used to pack the radiator and intake maifold on my grand national at the track to lower air intake temp and alow for a tad more boost. What jerry is refering to is that if you have a 210 therostat and your running 220 down the road with the therostat open a 180 therostat is going to do nothing for you an open therostat is an open thermostat.
Yes! What you said is 100% true, and the correct advice.

Except that a 210 degree thermostat is just beginning to open at 210. The engine very well may run a few degrees higher temperature than the stat's opening temp. I wouldn't say that running down the road at 220 on a 210 stat is all that high.

What Jerry said, that a lower thermostat will only matter in the dead of winter is baloney. A properly designed, correctly functioning cooling system will be able to reduce the engine temp to just above the t-stat's rated temp under normal conditions even in the high ambient temps of summer.
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Old 07-06-2008, 07:52 AM   #38
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my fan thermo switch is sitting on my fender
the thermo switchtemp reading thingy is inside the radiator hose
mounted the same way alot of hot rodders mount them
That's a bad idea. The fan's thermo-switch should be mounted in the radiator end near the outlet pipe, or as an aftermarket add-in you can mount it in the outlet hose.

The idea is to keep the coolant coming out of the radiator below the desired engine temp. Coolant that is hotter than the desired engine temp won't be able to cool it. So if you are running a 195 degree stat you want the coolant fan to come one when the outlet temp from the rad is ~180. You can have it come onbe lower but it will run more.

If the switch is only monitoring the air temp in the engine compartment (as you say yours is) it will have no idea how hot the coolant out of the radiator is unless you already have air blowing through the radiator core. But when you don't have air blowing through the core (like at slow speeds and at a stop) is the time you want the fan to run the most.
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:57 AM   #39
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I have to strongly disagree with Jerry on some points. Running without a thermostat is a very bad idea. That will not make a engine run cooler. Running without a thermostat raises the risk of overheating. With no thermostat the coolant runs thru the block & radiator to fast, thus not cooling properly. The thermosat needs to be installed, keeps the coolant in the radiator for the right amount of time to cool it.
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:12 PM   #40
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I have to strongly disagree with Jerry on some points. Running without a thermostat is a very bad idea.
I never suggested he do that, I have known it's not good to run without a thermostat for probably 40 of the 45 years I have been driving. I was only using that as an illustration. I was just saying it's silly to think that if a thermostat is already wide open and not restricting the coolant flow that installing a cooler temperature model is going to somehow force an engine to run cooler in hot conditions.
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:52 PM   #41
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No, it's really not there to help cool as it is to help the engine warm up. Otherwise no thermostat at all would be the way to go since a thermostat's only function is to close off flow through the radiator which makes the engine run warmer
Not trying to say all your points are not right Jerry. This statement is not true though. It is there to do both. To say its only function is to close off flow & make the engine run warmer is totally false. Yes, lots of people have ran without a thermostat & yes lots get away with it. It is a popular misconception that if you take the therm out , it will run cooler but this is not the case. Yes it might work sometimes. This opens the system up & lets the coolant just run thru, not letting it stay in the radiator long enough to cool. Thus you get hot coolant circulating & recirc. thru the system. Hotter the coolant is less cool engine is.
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:17 PM   #42
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That a thermostat serves to also slow the coolant down which helps cooling is not new to me, we actually placed flow restrictors in race engines to do the same thing when there was no thermostat. Sheesh, I was trying to keep the explanation simple to explain why a cooler thermostat would not help a hot engine run cooler if its present thermostat was already wide open... not get into every function of all of the components. Sometimes things need to be simplified so a point can be made without a long drawn out "finer points" discussion being invoked which has now happened.
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Old 07-06-2008, 03:40 PM   #43
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not trying to make it difficult. My explanation is pretty simple. Not trying to sound like you don't know what you are talking about or that I know it all either. Definitely don't , my wife will tell you that. I have read lots of your posts & you are very knowledgeable. I thought your post on this matter was very misleading though. A guy could have read it & said hey leave the therm out & it will help. Not here to argue with you or cause problems, just here to voice my opinion same as everyone else. Don't see where I made a issue, a big deal or how in any way I made this a far to technical subject.
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Old 07-06-2008, 03:42 PM   #44
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I also agree with you about the cooler therm not fixing the problem. If it is indeed getting hot, there is another problem somewhere.
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Old 07-06-2008, 03:51 PM   #45
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Just curious, when it starts over heating does the coolant start boiling? could be just a gauge issue if the dealer can fix it easily.
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Old 07-06-2008, 03:54 PM   #46
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That's a bad idea. The fan's thermo-switch should be mounted in the radiator end near the outlet pipe, or as an aftermarket add-in you can mount it in the outlet hose.

The idea is to keep the coolant coming out of the radiator below the desired engine temp. Coolant that is hotter than the desired engine temp won't be able to cool it. So if you are running a 195 degree stat you want the coolant fan to come one when the outlet temp from the rad is ~180. You can have it come onbe lower but it will run more.

If the switch is only monitoring the air temp in the engine compartment (as you say yours is) it will have no idea how hot the coolant out of the radiator is unless you already have air blowing through the radiator core. But when you don't have air blowing through the core (like at slow speeds and at a stop) is the time you want the fan to run the most.

did you even understand where or how my switch is located to get the correct temp

the switch its self is on the fender thats the control box that you set at a certain temp for the fan to come on
the temp reading sending unit thingy is inside the radiator hose thats what gets the temp reading of the antifrieze now I could of pushed that through the radiator fins but you arnt getting the correct reading and it will cause the fan to come on and off in 30 second cycles
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:03 PM   #47
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did you even understand where or how my switch is located to get the correct temp

the switch its self is on the fender thats the control box that you set at a certain temp for the fan to come on
the temp reading sending unit thingy is inside the radiator hose thats what gets the temp reading of the antifrieze now I could of pushed that through the radiator fins but you arnt getting the correct reading and it will cause the fan to come on and off in 30 second cycles
OK, my mistake. Most electric fans use a thermo switch. It is both the switch and the sensor. You are apparently using a sensor and remote electronic adjustable switch of some kind.

So my question should have been, where is the sensor exactly. In the coolant is good, but is it before or after the radiator?
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:09 PM   #48
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I also agree with you about the cooler therm not fixing the problem. If it is indeed getting hot, there is another problem somewhere.
thats what we have all said the pic that I posted is my normal operation temp
with the 180 thermostat in I only posted the pics to make my point that running a 180 or 160 thermostat does let you run a little cooler then the 195 does but also with running the cooler thermostat your heater in the winter wont get as hot
nobody ever said to run a lower thermostat will fix the problem we only said that if you cooling system is running properly it will run a little cooler

my problem is that when I turn on the AC it starts to get pretty hot and if I dont watch it it will over heat
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:10 PM   #49
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I have to strongly disagree with Jerry on some points. Running without a thermostat is a very bad idea. That will not make a engine run cooler. Running without a thermostat raises the risk of overheating. With no thermostat the coolant runs thru the block & radiator to fast, thus not cooling properly. The thermosat needs to be installed, keeps the coolant in the radiator for the right amount of time to cool it.
Sorry, but this is complete and utter nonsense. The coolant doesn't need to be in the radiator any length of time. If one batch of the coolant moves through it is necessarily replaced by new hotter coolant from the engine black, which is even easier for the radiator (heat exchanger) to draw heat out of.

If you have experienced problems with engines overheating due to a thermostat being removed, it's not for the reason you are stating. There are some cooling systems that require thermostats be installed for the flow restriction. But that is because of the way some cooling paths are designed. In those, if there is no stat all the coolant goes thru the radiator and none gets thru the block. Path of least resistance.

A Jeep block is not that sophisticated. If you pull the t-stat the only thing it will do is the engine won't come up to temp quick enough or far enough. You'll get a check engine fault and the engine will run crappy as it will always be in warm-up mode. Try it and prove me wrong.
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:15 PM   #50
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my problem is that when I turn on the AC it starts to get pretty hot and if I dont watch it it will over heat
What that is telling you is the added heat being dumped into the coolant from the AC system is over-taxing your current heat exchange capacity. To improve the coolant to air heat exchange capacity you'd need more air thru the radiator or more coolant thru the radiator or both.

The other way is by increasing the surface area, but unless you change the radiator that will remain constant.

Maybe the air being pushed by your fan is not going through enough area of the radiator. I have seen some after-market e-fan mods with circular fan shroud that reduces the area that gets cooling significantly. The big ass stock shroud ensures that the mechanical fan draws air through the entire radiator, albeit at a less than optimum rate.
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:20 PM   #51
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OK, my mistake. Most electric fans use a thermo switch. It is both the switch and the sensor. You are apparently using a sensor and remote electronic adjustable switch of some kind.

So my question should have been, where is the sensor exactly. In the coolant is good, but is it before or after the radiator?

I used a cheap switch from autozone I paid like $15
I havent tried to install the sensor after the radiator I put it before the radiator
they whant you to stick the probe through the fins where the anitifeize enters the radiator thats why I stuck it inside that hose

but I have seen people stick the sensor in the exit hose
Ive read of people using the drain valve and using the screw in type of temp sensor
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:25 PM   #52
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What that is telling you is the added heat being dumped into the coolant from the AC system is over-taxing your current heat exchange capacity. To improve the coolant to air heat exchange capacity you'd need more air thru the radiator or more coolant thru the radiator or both.

The other way is by increasing the surface area, but unless you change the radiator that will remain constant.

Maybe the air being pushed by your fan is not going through enough area of the radiator. I have seen some after-market e-fan mods with circular fan shroud that reduces the area that gets cooling significantly. The big ass stock shroud ensures that the mechanical fan draws air through the entire radiator, albeit at a less than optimum rate.

it does it with the efan and with the stock mechanical fan
the efan has a big shroud on it and it has two speeds low speed cycles on and off and I can turn it off for water crossings and turn it to high speed for additional cooling that taurus fan is one of the most powerful fans you can install some of the claims have been 4000 cfm on high speed notice I said claims
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:28 PM   #53
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What that is telling you is the added heat being dumped into the coolant from the AC system is over-taxing your current heat exchange capacity. To improve the coolant to air heat exchange capacity you'd need more air thru the radiator or more coolant thru the radiator or both.

The other way is by increasing the surface area, but unless you change the radiator that will remain constant.

Maybe the air being pushed by your fan is not going through enough area of the radiator. I have seen some after-market e-fan mods with circular fan shroud that reduces the area that gets cooling significantly. The big ass stock shroud ensures that the mechanical fan draws air through the entire radiator, albeit at a less than optimum rate.

thats right your jeep will stay in open loop
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Old 07-06-2008, 07:11 PM   #54
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sorry TJ but it is not complete & utter nonsense. A properly operating cooling system requires a thermostat. Yes, the radiator gets replenshed with more coolant. This is not a new or unlimited resource of coolant though. It is a set quantity that the system holds. If it goes thru the radiator to fast it does not cool properly. This lets coolant that has not been properly cooled to keep circulating thru the engine so it will only cool to the temp of that coolant. With a therm installed if you take temp readings at the top & bottom of the radiator you will see how much the temp is dropped. It is a significant amount. I am not trying to argue with you or anyone else but it is a fact that running without a therm can cause overheating problems. Again I am not trying to be a smart***. I have been a mechanic for 26 years, do have a little bit of knowledge, not just saying stuff. By no means again am I trying to be a smart*** or know it all. Learn new stuff everyday. Specialized in Heavy Equipment. Couple of years ago I got into a different profession. Still wrenching but on totally different equipment. I don't miss working on vehicles , equip. for a living. Now it is when I want & what I want. More hobby style.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:39 PM   #55
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Well i may have made some progress today. My dad has my radiator pressure check pump thing so i had to go rent one at autozone (free). while i was there i grabbed a new radiator cap. Sooo I attached the pressure pump and gave it a pump or two (under 10psi) and pop i had leaks at both hoses. so i replaced both clamps with regular hose clamps and tightened them up. i pumped the system up to about 16psi and watched it for a couple minutes and the pressure didnt move a bit. all is well no more leaks. so i jumped on the freeway to see if i could heat it up again and it never went above 210 the whole time. typically is rises way passed towards the 220 mark or more. I even turned the ac on and it never went really above 210. maybe a hair or two but thats to be expected with the ac on. i prolly went about 15miles on the freeway. now it was only about 75 degrees outside, but ive had it heat up before at this or around temp. im gonna go for a drive tomorrow when its 90 out and see what happens. the only other option i have is flow blockage of some kind. im gonna have my radiator guy give me the full stats on my radiator too when i see him next week. if my rad is too small im gonna pick up an aluminum one. thanks again everyone for your input and thoughts. yes even you Jerry haha we may not see eye to eye but i have a ton of respect for you and your knowledge

Now the reason why I checked the pressure for the system is two reasons, I needed to rule out a bad head gasket, and i have heard that a system that has little to know pressure will heat up faster and boil over at a lower temp. can anyone enlighten me on why that is?

Oh and TJbleu my efan shroud pretty much encompases the whole thing.
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:52 AM   #56
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i'm running without a fan (electric fan but i never turn it on) and my jeep never goes above 210 (unless at a top light and i dont turn the fan on)
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:00 PM   #57
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so i replaced both clamps with regular hose clamps and tightened them up
I have learned within the last six months or so how much better constant tension hose clamps are than the worm-screw types of hose clamps. I'll never use another worm screw clamp for my radiator hoses. The problem is that as things expand and contract, worm screw hose clamps don't expand or contract with them where constant tension clamps do. A few recent leaks I had with my worm screw clamped hoses where I had to re-tighten the clamps gave me more desire to get rid of them and go back to the constant tension type of clamp. I'm glad I saved my constant-tension hose clamps (the style that comes on new Jeeps/cars), I'm going to try to change them out this weekend.
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Old 07-13-2008, 08:05 AM   #58
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, I needed to rule out a bad head gasket, and i have heard that a system that has little to know pressure will heat up faster and boil over at a lower temp. can anyone enlighten me on why that is?
.
Physics. The higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point, the lower the pressure the lower the boiling point. That is why the boiling point of water is listed as 212deg F at sea level. The higher the elevation the lower the atmospheric pressure and the lower the boiling point.
With a cooling system in a car or Jeep or whatever, when the pressure is built up, it raises the boiling point of the coolant. That is why you can have it at 220deg and the coolant is not boiling.
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:20 AM   #59
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Parrot, the coolant mixed with the water doesnt also increase the boiling point? sort of like freezing point of sea water vs distilled...?
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:40 AM   #60
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Parrot, the coolant mixed with the water doesnt also increase the boiling point? sort of like freezing point of sea water vs distilled...?
Nearly any soluable substance added to water raises its boiling point but it's the pressurization of the cooling system that is primarily responsible for the coolant not boiling at elevated temperatures. One more tid-bit of information... plain water cools better than water mixed with coolant. Even in the preferred 50:50 water/coolant mixture. We add antifreeze to water in the radiator to keep it from freezing if you live where it gets cold enough, but more importantly, to lubricate the water pump and to inhibit corrosion. The use of antifreeze in no way helps improve engine cooling.

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Anniversary issue of JPFreek Adventure Mag available Mon, 4/9 txoutdoorx4 Off-Topic 0 04-08-2007 07:54 PM


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