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Old 11-11-2013, 11:41 AM   #1
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Cranking but not starting, CPS?

Hey all, so I went to go move my jeep over to another spot this morning and all it did was crank and crank and crank. It finally started after holding the ignition on and cranking it for a good 10 seconds it sputtered to life. What does it sound like?

Also, sometimes my starter sounds like it's not engaging and it sounds like a fan spinning. Any help with that one?

Thanks!

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Old 11-11-2013, 12:00 PM   #2
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I would say it is your fuel pressure regulator causing the starting problem. Try turning the key on and off a few times leaving it on for a few seconds each time before cranking. If that fixes that problem then it is indeed the regulator. (Very common problem) as far as the starter not engaging, you either have teeth missing on the flywheel, or worn teeth on the starter and it flywheel.

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Old 11-11-2013, 12:26 PM   #3
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I'm assuming fix for starter is to replace it. If it is the fuel pressure regulator, what's the fix for that? I should prolly replace the cps anyway, it's got 120k on it now
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Old 11-11-2013, 01:19 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellman605 View Post
I'm assuming fix for starter is to replace it. If it is the fuel pressure regulator, what's the fix for that? I should prolly replace the cps anyway, it's got 120k on it now
if it is indeed the starter then yes it would need replacing. The fuel pressure regulator can be changed by itself but most replace the whole fuel pump assembly as it is part of it and the tank has to be dropped anyways. No need in changing the CPS just because of 120K miles.
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Old 11-11-2013, 03:57 PM   #5
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It would not crank engine at all if starter teeth were damaged enough to sometimes just spin

Engaging starter while engine running generally damages ring gear teeth as the are softer by design since the starter has so many less teeth each starter tooth used much more then each ring gear tooth so for durability on high use starter teeth they are harder

The mechanism that kicks the starter gear forward may be faulty and replacing starter can help there but if you or previous owner ground away a group of ring rear teeth you can inspect with starter out and slowly rotating engine but to fix you gotta pull tranny and remove flywheel or flex plate
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Old 11-11-2013, 03:59 PM   #6
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Its an auto tranny, it's been doing this since I got it from the PO. The jeep is my daily so when it spins I just let off and try again after it stops. Only does it every now and then.
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:04 PM   #7
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I'll try to yank the starter on Wednesday and inspect it
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:29 PM   #8
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Sounds like a area of the ring gear on the flex plate had the teeth ground off
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:38 PM   #9
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Would that be specifically on the starter or would I be tearing into the tranny? Sorry, I'm a novice to starters
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:44 PM   #10
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Neither the flex plate is what the tranny torque converter bolts to and it is bolted to the end of the crankshaft it is surrounded by a big ring rear that the start gear spins to spin the engine

To remove it you have to remove the transmission first
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Old 11-11-2013, 04:49 PM   #11
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:08 PM   #12
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If the ring gear is stripped, from what I read it's welded on. What's the easiest way to replace the flex plate and ring gear, and where do i get it from? I'm hoping it's just the starter gears that are stripped but we'll find out
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:26 PM   #13
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First inspect to make sure there is and area with teeth ground down

To replace pull tranny then unbolt and remove torque converter then unbolt and remove flex plate then bolt on new flex plate then reinstall torque converter and tranny
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:28 PM   #14
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An not and

Any auto parts store local or online will have a flex plate
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Old 11-11-2013, 05:30 PM   #15
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Awesome. I'll check tonight about the actual starting issue first. Gonna be cold tomorrow and don't want to ride the bike into work so I'm hoping I can get it started and running tomorrow. I'll yank the starter and inspect the ring gears on Wednesday. Gotta love PO surprises right?
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger84 View Post
Sounds like a area of the ring gear on the flex plate had the teeth ground off
if that were the case then the engine would have to be turned to get it past the area where the teeth are ground off.
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Old 11-12-2013, 06:54 AM   #17
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Sounds logical but does not work that way

Remember any ring gear damage is from direct tooth to tooth contact so even in free spin there is a little friction that minimally advances the engine

So yes a time or two or three the starter just spins but the next time it starts

Had a few cases like this and each had damaged ring gear and each was cured by ring gear replacement

Guess you never had a mom that turned key to start with engine running as she forgot it was on or a dad that fixed it and taught you

Live and learn big guy
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:15 AM   #18
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What would've truly illogical is thinking that ground or missing teeth on the starter would cause intermittent spin

Even if we ignore the hardness designed in when starter free spins (assuming due to starter gear damage not gear forward movement mechanism) all the starter teeth are presented to the ring gear and if damaged enough that it can extend and free spin it ain't gonna get better as all the teeth on starter gear are not engaging but during this free spin only a very small of ring gear teeth have the potential to touch starter gear so a small area of damage could allow starting once ring turns a bit
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:39 AM   #19
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Sounds logical but does not work that way Remember any ring gear damage is from direct tooth to tooth contact so even in free spin there is a little friction that minimally advances the engine So yes a time or two or three the starter just spins but the next time it starts Had a few cases like this and each had damaged ring gear and each was cured by ring gear replacement Guess you never had a mom that turned key to start with engine running as she forgot it was on or a dad that fixed it and taught you Live and learn big guy
that is your experience. I had a mustang that would do the same thing. It started after the starter was removed to remove the transmission. Put starter back in and had the grinding issue. Replaced the starter and all was well. So I did live and learn!! Now the OP just needs to figure out which problem is his and get it fixed. I will bet it's just his starter though.
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:07 AM   #20
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Like I said if the mechanism that kicks out the starter gear or its engagement mechanism is not functioning properly that can cause a similar prob so yes check that first

Don't know what year mustang but on the small and big block 68 and 69 mustangs I owned there were both possibly assembly/reassembly issues and a rubber and steel bushing that could be an issue and either could be fixed without replacing entire starter and could be bench repaired or replaced

And yes a new starter can fix that

Like I also said visually inspect the ring gear before launching any expensive repair but don't just throw on new parts hoping to fix without diagnosing

Now tell us what was wrong with the replaced starter and if you ever have seen an intermittent starter free spin problem related to worn or missing starter teeth

I haven't but perhaps you could relate such an occurrence
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:51 AM   #21
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Well she starts fine when I cycle the key a couple times so that issue is the regulator it seems.
Only reason I believe it's only the starter is cause after it spins, directly after it stops if I start it up it works just fine which is what's confusing
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:58 AM   #22
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What spins the starter or the engine via the starter

If the starter engages and cranks engine but no start,fuel system ie regulator is a good possibility best checked by checking fuel rail pressure

If starter spins without turning engine over look to starter or ring gear

If sometimes turn key and not even starter spins look to key switch cables solenoid battery starter or connections
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:07 AM   #23
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It sounds like you have two problems... the problem of the long time for the engine to actually start when the starter motor is cranking it properly is caused by the fuel pressure regulator or possibly fuel pump. This happens when a check valve inside them fails which is there to keep fuel in the fuel rail next to the fuel injectors for a fast start. When that happens, the fuel instead drains down & back to the gas tank. The long start time is how long it takes the fuel pump to get gas from the gas tank all the way back up to the fuel injectors.

Cycling the key on-off-on 6-10 times to give the fuel pump extra time to get fuel up to the fuel injectors before you attempt to start it will help get the engine started without the long crank time.

The other problem is obviously at the starter or the teeth on the flex plate that the starter's teeth engage.
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:55 AM   #24
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Well she starts fine when I cycle the key a couple times so that issue is the regulator it seems. Only reason I believe it's only the starter is cause after it spins, directly after it stops if I start it up it works just fine which is what's confusing
yep it is the regulator then. I also believe it is the starter so don't be concerned that it is going to be more. It could be, but a good visual inspection will tell you. Glad you figured out the regulator part at least.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:01 AM   #25
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Awesome. Works for me. My father is gifting me his 05 mustang next year when he retires so I just need it to last me until next year when I can project the jeep and daily the mustang. I have a new cb500x to commute on too so I'm not overly concerned.

I'll pull the starter tomorrow on my off day and inspect it. I'll try to put some pictures up. Thanks all
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:18 AM   #26
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I would just about bet your cranking issue is the bendix drive inside the starter. The Bendix drive pushes the starter gear into the ring gear when the starter is energized then the starter motor turns the engine. When the engine starts the Bendix is released and the starter gear retracts from the ring gear. I bet your Bendix is intermittently not engaging so the starter gear spins free.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:39 AM   #27
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I would just about bet your cranking issue is the bendix drive inside the starter. The Bendix drive pushes the starter gear into the ring gear when the starter is energized then the starter motor turns the engine. When the engine starts the Bendix is released and the starter gear retracts from the ring gear. I bet your Bendix is intermittently not engaging so the starter gear spins free.
See I remember reading something about that and that makes a LOT of sense to what I'm hearing since there isn't any grinding. Just sounds like a quiet fan spinning.

Pretty much exactly what is described in this thread.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/no-...nd-232411.html
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:39 PM   #28
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Well my luck would have it I think the fuel pump went out. It will crank and crank and crank and try to start but it just won't fire and stay running . How do i test for the fuel pump?
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:46 PM   #29
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Well.... Got it started but it's only starting if I repeatedly press the gas pedal down which is what's confusing me.... It idles and runs fine when started but wont start easily at all....
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:12 PM   #30
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Hey everyone I'm having a real problem now. I was heading home today and the jeep just shut down. Rolled to the side of the road, started back up fine, drove a little more up to about 30 mph, turned off. It flashed the check engine light before it shut off.

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