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Old 11-07-2011, 10:37 AM   #451
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Death Wobble

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Originally Posted by WarBoomer View Post
So I put a 2" BB on my 2005 a few weeks ago. This took my slight "vibe" at 55 into a full on death wobble at 55. Basically, I have a jeep I can only go 50mph in right now...

Took it to a shop. I usually do my own work, but I had to go out of town for the next 2 weeks and just wanted it fixed. Took it to what I THOUGHT was the best place.

They replaced the track bar (calming it was loose) and the bearings (calming one on each side was worn, but we went ahead and replaced them all), and an alignment (since I had just lifted it). They swear up and down its better. On my way home I have to pull off the interstate twice....

So I take it back and they are talking about possibly doing a caster kit. My question is, what caster should we be talking abut for a 2" bb? I see your notes for a 4". I did give them a copy of post 364 which they took, but I'm not sure they read. The wobble is severe, and a new trackbar, alignment and bearings didn't even touch it....
Sorry to hear about your experience. Unfortunately, what you are doing is why I wrote the article in post 364. If you've read several other posts here, you'll also note that I tell people to make sure these guys "READ it BEFORE even looking at your rig. Too many "good shops" have the attitude they "know it all" and have "done it all"... trust me, we can all learn a new thing or two.

A couple comments about what you wrote and then a few more about what you didn't write. (no offense intended, it's very hard to help someone with extremely sketchy info)

First, I am assuming by "bearings" that they replaced, you mean Ball Joints. Please correct me if this is untrue. Worn ball joints are definitely a major contributor to DW. If they replaced the ball joints and track bar, you have one of the more difficult cases to diagnose. Sorry--

Many shops don't really know how to properly check ball joints and they get overlooked quite a bit from my experience. If they did a good job of replacing them, (which is likely) you're better off one way or the other.

One big question about when they replaced the track bar: did they really check the mounting bolt holes for elongation? This is a problem that hardly anyone knows about and will definitely cause DW. Another thing about the track bar is the tower on the frame end. We've seen both the tapered bore wallowed out or the torque on the nut become loose (even with a cotter pin).
Even the frame flexing above the tower can contribute to your problem.

You don't give any mileage which can tell a lot. Has the Jeep been mostly a daily driver or used off highway a lot? There's a big difference in the expected wear of certain components. What size tires? Are you running stock wheels or an aftermarket with a different off-set? You see, even little things all change the way your steering and suspension work both individually and together. People change things like tire width without realizing the other changes they make.

As to your 2" BB (one of my personal top 10 worst things you can do-- but that's another article), you changed the angles of your steering and suspension enough to put your worn parts into "severely worn" status.
They altered the caster just a very little which could possibly be part of your problem. With the lift, your caster should be set back to about +5 1/2 degrees + or - one degree. The stock specs call for +7. This affects your tracking and your drive line angles mostly.

If they are going to install a "caster kit", I am curious how they are going to accomplish this. There are at least three ways to do it. The way I would recommend is to install adjustable lower and/or upper control arms. If this is your chosen way, I would spend a few more dollars and get ones with better joints. The cheap ones will work for a while, but will pound out and get loose and you may find yourself back with either shimmy or DW. They also don't flex as well... contrary to what they claim. Flex in a poly bushing in (my opinion) is a myth.

I would recommend that you take it back to the same shop. Ask them if they checked the bolt holes in the track bar mounts, the bore in the tower, and the control arm bushings and bolt holes like in the article. If they didn't, tell them to "git ur done". If they balk, I would demand some of my money back (something you may not get) and take the rig another shop where they are willing to learn. Nobody knows it all, but some aren't smart enough to know that!

If they check out your vehicle like the article says to do, they'll have a lot better chance of actually repairing it without giving you a major headache and thinking they are a bunch of dopes.

Please let us know what they find. We can all learn from your experience.

Good luck and Happy Trails.

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Old 11-07-2011, 02:55 PM   #452
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Thanks for the help.

By bearings I meant ball joints...my mistake. Typed that whole thing out on my phone. I appriciate them looking into the ball joints and track bar first, rather than the stabilizer and wheels, and I also agree if the joints were worn, they needed replacing...(even though that was a rather expensive venture).

So far they have followed your recommendations pretty well, but I seriously doubt they looked for elongation. I gave them a copy of your post, but not sure they read it. Just want to make sure when they call back, I can speak accurately and make suggestions to help steer them from more expensive part replacing if possible. It seems replacing those items has always worked in the past for them, because they were taken a little off guard when I returned 2hrs later, letting them know nothing was different (they didn't seem to know what else to do, but said they'd happily research). I'm not sure what they meant by "caster kit". Glad to have a little info about what the could mean (like I said, now I can speak to it with a little more knowledge)

To answer your questions, Jeep has 60,000 miles. I bought it with 45,000 and it has been driven 85% highway miles on 31" tires on stock rims. I bought it as it stands about 1.5 years ago.

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Old 11-09-2011, 01:18 PM   #453
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i just fixed the tow in on my jeep and it fixed death wobble. only happens about once every three or four weeks now. was happening about once every two days
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:59 PM   #454
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Then obviously you didn't fix your deaths wobble. If you fixed it, then it would NEVER happen. It sounds like you only fixed on of the causes of DW.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:16 PM   #455
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I just got finished replacing the axle end track bar bushing with this Hard-KOR SUPER-hard Rockwell Durometer (60d) bushings WITH SLEEVES [KOR-1189-S-KIT] - $79.97 : KevinsOffRoad.com - Hard-KOR Jeep Accessories for Wrangler, Grand Cherokee, Commander, Liberty, and Cherokee

It is much harder than the poly bushing or stock rubber one it replaces. Since this bushing is the most common place where DW starts. If everything else is tight, balanced, and aligned. This may make the difference. It did in my case.
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:34 PM   #456
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Death Wobble

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Originally Posted by zsimpson View Post
i just fixed the tow in on my jeep and it fixed death wobble. only happens about once every three or four weeks now. was happening about once every two days
I have to agree with the other response to this post. How is it "FIXED" if it still does the same thing every 3 or 4 weeks?

I will restate what I have written about out of balance and cupped tires with a new twist:

Out of balance and cupped tires AND alignment (including toe adjustment) DO NOT CAUSE DEATH WOBBLE! Read that about 5 more times.

The above conditions simply pull the trigger for DW to fire.

If your steering and suspension components are in good operating condition...
YOU WILL NOT HAVE DEATH WOBBLE. NEVER!
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:13 AM   #457
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Just put on my winter wheels and it showed up. No problems with summer wheels. Checked front end over and found steering stabilizer to be a little loose. Cranked it down and much better. Still going to go and get some caster taken out though.
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:30 PM   #458
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Just an update on my situation. 2 weeks later she is on the road with no wobble!

Changed ball joints and track bar. Adjusted caster to about +5. After all of this, still had a bit of a wobble, but was better. Swapped tires just to see....zero wobble. Not sure if the tires wore out the ball joints, or if the ball joints wore out the tires, but it seemed the combo of the two created the problem.

Put some 33 10.50's on, checked alignment, drove for 2hrs yesterday (including after getting quite muddy at the OHV park). No problems. Steering feels like it wants to wobble, but I've tried and tried to get it to and it's not happening.

Thank you everyone for your help and feedback.... man that was not a cheap thing to fix.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:50 PM   #459
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I have a 2004 tj and have dw. I got a adj. trakbar from rustys offroad for front axl. How would i center the axle? I have tryed lots of ways and it always seems to pull back to passanger side. any ideas?
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Old 11-27-2011, 10:01 PM   #460
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For a stock 01 Sahara, is it better to get parts from Jeep or aftermarket? Like the track bar, stabilizer links, track arms ect. Whats a good site to order from that has good prices? I have DW at about 60mph. I think new tires will help the cause too
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:44 AM   #461
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Heads up! I own two TJs 1 has 102K on 2.5 ltr with 33" tires and the other has 90K on same suspension. All front ends are in excellent shape and I have never had this "Death Wobble" as some have. I also installed dual stabs on both for the hell of it just recently, and they steer like a dream. Its been said before, if the front axle componants are correct this problem doesnt exist.
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Old 12-02-2011, 12:54 PM   #462
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Just started to feel some of the DW affects now. This is my 3rd TJ and its totally stock. The tires were over inflated from the previous owner and my tire guy said they were cupped. Balanced and rotated with right psi, and I'm literally trying to drive out the cupped shape but now the steering is starting to vibrate. I'm going to check the track bar and tighten all the front components to spec and have it aligned last. I may have to just give up on these tires and get some new ones huh?
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:37 PM   #463
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There are some good sites to check out like teraflex.biz and genright.com. i ordered from rustys offroad and am starting to wonder if they sent me the right trackbar for a my jeep, but the shipping was fast, and they have a good selection.
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:25 PM   #464
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This is my first post on here...I wish I had thought to look here while the problem was happening. I have an 06 Wrangler with a 3in lift. The wobble used to happen at least 4 times a week on the freeway. I got new tires almost 2 months ago and so far so good. Here's a vid I was able to catch one day when it was happening literally every 5 minutes on my drive home.

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Old 12-13-2011, 05:47 AM   #465
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Just installed adjustable control arms and set the caster to 4.6 and 4.8. Death wobble gone. Caster has a ton to do with it. Ford is recalling brand new Super Duty trucks to take some caster out because new trucks with no miles are getting the wobble. The guys on here with all the answers are right on the money. Thanks fellas.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:16 PM   #466
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Fixed my death wobble..... It only happens after 60 mph and was not as severe as I've seen.....changed tires.....now I'm doing 75 mph nice and smooth
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:29 PM   #467
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Hey guys this is my first post but i hope its helpfun. I have an 06 "x" and got the death wobble pretty bad. I did a little research and found a site that pointed me in the direction of an OME steering stabilzer. Its a little more than some of the others on the market but my death wobble is gone (for now) haha. keep in mind im not very handy and i was able to install the new one in 10 mins using a pitman arm puller and a wrench...

sorry if a million people said the same thing, i didnt go thru all the pages
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:36 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by aspohr89 View Post
Hey guys this is my first post but i hope its helpfun. I have an 06 "x" and got the death wobble pretty bad. I did a little research and found a site that pointed me in the direction of an OME steering stabilzer. Its a little more than some of the others on the market but my death wobble is gone (for now) haha. keep in mind im not very handy and i was able to install the new one in 10 mins using a pitman arm puller and a wrench...

sorry if a million people said the same thing, i didnt go thru all the pages

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1c62nv View Post
Heads up! I own two TJs 1 has 102K on 2.5 ltr with 33" tires and the other has 90K on same suspension. All front ends are in excellent shape and I have never had this "Death Wobble" as some have. I also installed dual stabs on both for the hell of it just recently, and they steer like a dream. Its been said before, if the front axle componants are correct this problem doesnt exist.
actually puts more stress on the steering pump. Death Wobble is Death Wobble. A steering stabilizer wont cure the issue. And 2 is worse.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:36 PM   #469
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It amazes me that after all the pages of posts on this thread, people still believe that a steering stabilizer fixed their DW.
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Old 12-15-2011, 02:13 AM   #470
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They rationalize that putting a steering stabilizer or two on it made the wobble go away, was pretty easy to do and relatively cheap so that must be the fix! When in reality it only masks the real problem at hand.. you can lead a horse to water but be damned if he'll drink it!
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:36 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by darkproximity
They rationalize that putting a steering stabilizer or two on it made the wobble go away, was pretty easy to do and relatively cheap so that must be the fix! When in reality it only masks the real problem at hand.. you can lead a horse to water but be damned if he'll drink it!

I wasnt convinced of anything, I'm fact I said "for now“... And the only reason why I did that was because a few sites pointed towards that. And I look at it this way, I didn't have the money to dig into it allowed me to take my car on vaca and 10k miles later im still not wobbling.

Now I'm slowly replacing other parts on my front end since I have the money, so the stabilizer was a great option for the situation. Not everyone has the luxury dumping money into their car as soon as things pop up
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:48 AM   #472
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I don't have the luxury of dumping money into my Jeep when something goes wrong either.. thats why I have a yj :-)
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:06 AM   #473
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Lol touche sir
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:12 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by aspohr89 View Post
I wasnt convinced of anything, I'm fact I said "for now“... And the only reason why I did that was because a few sites pointed towards that. And I look at it this way, I didn't have the money to dig into it allowed me to take my car on vaca and 10k miles later im still not wobbling.

Now I'm slowly replacing other parts on my front end since I have the money, so the stabilizer was a great option for the situation. Not everyone has the luxury dumping money into their car as soon as things pop up
the grand total of a home alignment is a big 'ol zero. that might solve your issue. and make sure your track bar, control arms, and steering are all super tight.
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:28 AM   #475
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Lol touche sir
:-) also I was just agreeing with the person above me.. I didn't actually read your initial post lol..

As long as you're getting to the root of the problem and not just being content with adding a steering stabilizer then ur good to go..
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:04 AM   #476
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Death Wobble

I hate to say it friend, but you did NOT "fix" anything. Let me explain.

If your steering and suspension are working properly, the worst tires in the world will not trigger a DW.

1st. Tires are not a cause of DW... period! They can assist in getting one started.

Changing your tires in this case has just changed some of your entire system.
Chances are, the reason your tires were bad is the same reason you have DW. I can safely predict that after running your new tires a while, they will develop the same wear pattern that initiated the DW and it will come back to haunt you.

I don't say this to be mean or nasty. This is the reality of DW.

I see where some posts here have gone back to "a new steering stabilizer fixed my DW". Here again, you folks have "fixed" zero, nothing.

A steering stabilizer (actually a steering damper) has exactly nothing to do with what causes a DW. The purpose of a steering damper is to take some of the shock load away from your steering gear as you hit bumps and obstacles.

Why it can sometimes "fix" a DW is that it slows the process that triggers the DW. We recommend disconnecting or removing a SS whenever test driving a vehicle with DW to see if we have actually repaired the REAL problem. Without the masking effect of the SS, you can be more confident the repair is either done or needs more attention.

I invite you to visit Jeep parts, Jeep Accessories, parts Jeep, build your Jeep right here and look into the Technical Article "Death Wobble" for a much more complete description of the whole problem and how to repair it. There you will find the "real" causes and how to properly diagnose DW. You will also be able to see a video of DW in action. Those of you who have experienced one may not wish to see one, the experience was enough!

Happy Trails.



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Originally Posted by Jo1175 View Post
Fixed my death wobble..... It only happens after 60 mph and was not as severe as I've seen.....changed tires.....now I'm doing 75 mph nice and smooth
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:45 AM   #477
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Track bar adjustment

Hi, Sorry to have waited so long to address this, but here goes.

Rather than telling you how, I am going to recommend you watch some videos on alignment of a lifted TJ. Some of the video will not pertain to your particular suspension, but the basics of what you want to do are the same.

The Teraflex suspension they show in the videos is about one step below what I have on my '06 Wrangler Happy Trails. You won't believe the flex this thing has. HT is triangulated at both ends... no track bars.

These videos are extremely educational. You will likely learn more than you expected, but a little knowledge won't hurt much.

This is a three part video. I think it's the 2nd one that answers your question but the 1st will set up the how and why of what your are doing.

You might want to read my article "Death Wobble" in the Technical Articles at
http://www.happytrails4wd.com/page/death-wobble
It will give you some better ideas of the causes of Death Wobble and how to cure it.


Blog - TeraFlex Jeep TJ Alignment Training Part 1 | TeraFlex Suspensions

Blog - TeraFlex Jeep TJ Alignment Training Part 2 | TeraFlex Suspensions


Blog - TeraFlex Jeep TJ Alignment Training Part 3 | TeraFlex Suspensions

Many Happy Trails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kRicketts96 View Post
I have a 2004 tj and have dw. I got a adj. trakbar from rustys offroad for front axl. How would i center the axle? I have tryed lots of ways and it always seems to pull back to passanger side. any ideas?
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:27 AM   #478
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Death Wobble

Thank you for confirming that the message is getting through to at least someone.

Tires and Steering Stabilizers (steering dampers) can only mask (cover-up) the real problem.

/Tires and Steering Dampers CANNOT and WILL NOT cause Death Wobble... ever... never!
Anyone who tells you otherwise is someone to beware of. They have no clue.
If the first thing they ask is about tire balance, turn around and RUN! They are dangerous.

To learn reality about Death Wobble and its cure, go to
Death Wobble

There you will find the proper way to check out a steering and suspension suffering DW problems. From there you will be able to build a good battle plan to repair it.

Thanks again and Happy Trails.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ-Mike View Post
It amazes me that after all the pages of posts on this thread, people still believe that a steering stabilizer fixed their DW.
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:14 AM   #479
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Had the death wobble when I test drove my 2004 TJ, 4 cyl,5 speed. 104,000 miles, otherwise Jeep looked like it had never been off road. Guy wanted $8500. Took to an offroad shop and they promised it could be resolved for less than $400. Bought the jeep for $7200. Fix was---steering stabilizer, tightened track bar, allignment----- only reduced the wobble---solution for this were cam bolts so the castor could be adjusted? $38 fixed it!!! Have hit every bump I could find on road trip, NO WOBBLE.
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:24 AM   #480
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Death Wobble

Thanks for the "End of the Story". Hearing how it got fixed is always the best part.
There is one thing I would recommend you do though (not to diss on your parade).

Disconnect or remove the Steering Damper and then test drive it on a bumpy road. If it doesn't DW then, it really is "fixed".

The reason I recommend this is the mileage. Even 100K non-off road miles can wear a lot of parts. Experience has shown DW is very seldom an easy-- one thing repair. I'm not sure what "tightened track bar" means, so it is still suspect. With the mileage, the ball joints are definitely suspect too.

You don't say whether it is stock suspension or lifted which leaves other questions. The need for caster adjustment makes me think it may be lifted... BUT if it is not and you need caster adjustment, there must be another reason for that. A stock suspension should run well at stock specs. See what I mean?

Sometimes what seems right is only half done.

Check out Death Wobble for the right way to check out a steering and suspension with DW. This YOU and a friend can do in your driveway (maybe not the ball joints unless you KNOW what you're doing).

Good luck and Happy Trails.




Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjeep1 View Post
Had the death wobble when I test drove my 2004 TJ, 4 cyl,5 speed. 104,000 miles, otherwise Jeep looked like it had never been off road. Guy wanted $8500. Took to an offroad shop and they promised it could be resolved for less than $400. Bought the jeep for $7200. Fix was---steering stabilizer, tightened track bar, allignment----- only reduced the wobble---solution for this were cam bolts so the castor could be adjusted? $38 fixed it!!! Have hit every bump I could find on road trip, NO WOBBLE.

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