Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles (TJ Version) - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:28 PM   #1
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Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles (TJ Version)

Death Wobble is no mystery.
It is caused by loose bolts, damaged components, or improper
installation.



Look at the picture below and follow along:


First, the tie rod (yellow) has ends that attach to a knuckle on the driver side and the drag link on the passenger side. As you could imagine, if either ends of the tie rod were broken or bad, that could be a culprit for a shimmy (not Death Wobble). A common place to damage the tie rod is on the driver's side at the adjusting collar (not in the picture). That collar/sleeve allows the width of the tie rod to be expanded or contracted. There are threads on that end that can be damaged, causing play on that driver's side and allow an up and down, or circular play movement. Again, this would cause a shimmy, not Death Wobble.

Next, look at the drag link. On one end, it attaches to the pitman arm (light green), that attaches to the steering gear box. On the other end, the drag link attaches to the passenger side knuckle. When you turn your steering wheel, a shaft turns that goes to the steering gear box. The steering gear box turns the pitman arm, and the pitman arm pushes or pulls the drag link, which pushes or pulls the knuckle. Your steering wheel is straitened by loosening the two nuts on the sleeve/turnbuckle on the drag link and rotating the sleeve/turnbuckle to lengthen or contract the length of the drag link. If either end of the drag link is damaged, this would cause a wobble or shimmy, but not Death Wobble.

Next, look at the trackbar (aqua). It attaches to a bracket on the frame on the driver's side and to the axle on the passenger side. The purpose of the trackbar is to center the axle on the frame. With the axle centered on the frame, it provides some resistance to the steering system to allow you to turn. If there was no trackbar and you turned the steering, the whole front frame would shift. As a result, there is significant force applied to the trackbar in driving and steering.

Now, imagine that the bolt and end that holds the trackbar are loose in their bolt holes, or that the axle side bolt holes are wallowed out (oval) and the end at the frame side is damaged, or that the bushings at the axle side trackbar end is damaged, or that the bracket at the axle side has come loose because the weld has broken/cracked, or that the axle side bushing is all twisted up because the rig has been lifted without the installer loosening the bolt and then retightened them at the new ride height and the bracket has pinched the bolt sleeve in the bushing at a different ride height--twisting the sleeve away from the bushing. All these things would allow play in the front trackbar. When you steer or go around a corner, these loose or broken things would allow the axle to shake or slide side to side. If you hit a bump in the road, it could knock the trackbar towards the driver's side. Then, the rest of the suspension (springs, etc.) would try to bring the trackbar back to the passenger side. If you were going at any sort of speed, you could develop a kind of harmonic resonance as the axle more and more violently slide/rocked/shaked from side to side. It would feel like your whole front end was being voilently torn apart. You would have to bring your vehicle to a complete standstill to stop the harmonic resonance. This is Death Wobble.

Also, look at the picture of how the frame side of the trackbar has something similar to a tie rod end. When the suspension droops in a TJ or XJ, the design of the frame side ends binds the end and can damage or break the end--leading to the scenario described above.

Even one incident of violent Death Wobble related to the front trackbar can cause significant damage. The voilent harmonic resonance of the back and forth shaking is more than the trackbar bushings, trackbar frame side end, bracket bolt holes, and brackets and welds are designed to handle. A severe Death Wobble occurance can crack or break the welds on the axle side trackbar bracket, or the bolt can wallow out the bolt hole in the bracket, or the bushing can be permanently damaged.

This is the most common source of Death Wobble because inexperienced installers either do not remove the bolt from the trackbar when they install a lift--leaving the bushing pinched in the bracket and bound up, or they do not properly torque the bolts after the lift has been installed with the tires on and the full weight of the vehicle on the ground at ride height, or (maybe the most common) they do not retorque the trackbar bolts after the first 50 miles, after every heavy wheeling trip, and at every oil change interval.

Next, look at the lower control arms (orange) and the upper control arms (purple). In the picture, they are stock arms. The stock control arms have a rubber bushing at each end. When the control arms are properly torqued, the bushing is somewhat pinched in the mounting brackets on the axle and the frame. Sometimes, an installer will make the mistake of not loosening the bolts for the control arms when they install a lift. What happens sometimes is they really bind up the bushings because they are pinched/sandwiched at stock ride height, but then forced to the new lifted ride height. These bound up bushings can cause weird handling, bushing failure, and lead to Death Wobble. The proper way is to loosen the bolts, install the lift, reinstall the wheels so the suspension and jeep are at the new ride height, rock the vehicle/suspension back and forth and side to side, then re-torque the bolts to spec, then after 50 miles re-torque them to spec, then after every oil change or very heavy wheeling trip re-torque them to spec.

Improperly balanced tires, too much air in tires, bent wheels, improperly installed wheel spacers, bad tires (with separated plys), and poor alignment specs (caster, camber, and not enough toe-in) can cause wobbles and shimmies that lead to Death Wobble. However, these precipitate Death Wobble, but they are not the cause of Death Wobble.
Although not specifically identified in the picture, the ball joints that are at the top and bottom of each knuckle where it attaches to the axle C can go bad. Bad ball joints can cause shimmies, wobbles, but usually not full on Death Wobble.

The swaybar links (red) have bolts that can work themselves loose. This also can lead to bad wobbles.

Next, allthough not identified in the picture, the unit bearings can go bad and be a cause of shimmy and wobble, but not Death Wobble.

Hope this helps--assuming you read it all.

Death Wobble is no mystery.

The reason that the steering stabilizer masks it is that it can absorb some of the side to side voilent harmonics of a loose trackbar or damaged mounts. However, this masking is dangerous because it will not prevent the eventual failure of trackbar bracket welds and bolt holes from trackbar Death Wobble.

It is extremely important to immediately diagnose and fix Death Wobble.

Even one episode of DW can damage other components.

Multiple episodes of DW are almost guaranteed to damage other components.






Multiple episodes will often damage your:
  • ball joints
  • tie rod ends--including the adjusting sleeve end on the driver side
  • trackbar bushings
  • trackbar bracket bolt holes
  • steering sector shaft (where the pitman arm attaches to the steering box)
  • steering stabilizer
  • front lower control arm bracket bolt holes
  • unit bearings
  • trackbar bracket welds
  • drag link ends
There are many, many examples of jeepers who with 5-6 episodes of trackbar related DW even on an a stock jeep have ended up "chasing their tails" for many, many months. It is not uncommon for people to end up replacing almost everything in the above list--sometimes more than once chasing sources of DW and non-DW wobbles and shimmies.




Without repairing/replacing everything that was damaged at once, the remaining damaged components continued to cause DW problems, further damaging the remaining components.


This is Death Wobble on a JK (and the guy is unwise for repeating it on purpose):

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Old 01-30-2011, 07:30 PM   #2
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DIAGNOSIS CHECKLIST

Assuming your tire psi is 28-30, your tires/wheels have been balanced and rotated to make sure the wobble doesn't move with the rotation, here would be my order:
  1. Remove the steering stabilizer.
  2. Have someone turn the engine on and turn slowly from full lock to full lock while I visually, manually (with my hands on the components), and auditorily inspect for any play in the tie rod ends, drag link ends, sector shaft, trackbar ends/bolts/brackets, and trackbar bracket welds.
  3. Then, do the same thing but with short, sharp, quick back and forth turns of the steering wheel between the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions, instead of the slow, lock to lock approach.
  4. Then, I would remove the front trackbar to inspect the axle bracket bolt holes for ovaling and inspect the trackbar bushings for separation or cracking with a long screw driver through the bolt sleeve and the trackbar in a vise to leverage against the bushing in all directions. I would also inspect the frame side bracket for damage and the frame side end of the trackbar for up and down play using a channel lock pliers. If all is good, I would reinstall the trackbar with the tires on the ground at ride height to 55 lbs at the axle side and 65 lbs at the frame side.
  5. Then, I would inspect the drag link end joints by using a large channel lock pliers that gave me enough leverage to check for up-and-down play in the drag link ends. There should not be any meaningful up and down play. If there is, the ends should be replaced, or a new drag link with heavy duty joints should be installed. After, I would check the torque of the drag link ends. Taller lifts magnify the problems of bad drag link ends.
  6. Then, I would inspect the tie rod ends with the channel lock pliers for up-and-down and in-and-out movement. There should be no meaningful play. There should only be rotational movement in the joint ends.
  7. Then, I would put the front axle on jack stands with the tires about 2" off the ground and check the front ball joints by using a long pry bar as a lever under the front tires to lift them up to inspect for up and down play in the lower ball joints. There shouldn't be more than maybe 1-2 mm.
  8. Then, I would use the prybar/lever against the frame or just my hands on the top and bottom of the tire to inspect for lateral movement of the top ball joints. There shouldn't be any. If you have a lighter tire/wheel combo, you can do this by hand.
  9. Then, I would remove the front tires/wheels and remove the front tie rod--one knuckle at a time. Then with a large wrench or vice grips, I would inspect the end for side to side play. Then I would reinstall the end and torque to spec (20 ft. lbs.) and repeat on the other side.
  10. Then, I would remove the brake calipers and brake disks to inspect the unitbearings for play.
  11. Then, I would reinstall the discs, brake calipers, and tires/wheels and set the axle back on the ground.
  12. Then, I would support, but not lift, the front axle with a floor jack and loosen the front lower control arm bolts. One at a time, I would drop the lower control arms to inspect the bolt holes and bushings (similar to with the trackbar), reinstall without torquing, and do the next one. Afterwards, remove the floor jack so the suspension is at ride height, vigorously rock the vehicle side-to-side and front-and-back, then torque to spec. (LCAs frame side 130 ft lbs, LCAs axle side 85 ft lbs, and upper CAs 55 ft lbs.
  13. Next, I would inspect the sector shaft that comes out of the steering box for cracking or twisting of the splines.
  14. Then, I would take a test drive without the steering stablizer to feel for any wobbles.
  15. Finally, I would reinstall the steering stablizer or spring $40 for a heavy duty steering stablizer.
If this front end inspection does not diagnose and/or solve it, then I would move to an alignment.
  1. I would use adjustable lower front control arms to set my caster spec between 4 and 5 degrees--with a cross caster that has less on the driver side than the passenger side. I would personally not do more or less, with a target around 4.5-4.7 degrees caster.
  2. If my camber is out of spec, but it is not due to failed ball joints, I would install offset ball joints to get my camber in spec.
  3. I would set my toe-in to spec on the machine--which is about a 1/16" to 1/8" toe-in.
  4. If my front to rear alignment is off, I would install rear lower adjustable control arms to fix this.
With all this, I highly doubt you do not find the source.


The last ditch thing if there is a non-DW, speed dependent range wobble, I would borrow a different set of wheels and tires to see if it changes, and I would try driving it with no front driveshaft to see if that changes anything.

Although it is always a good idea to inspect your axle shaft u-joints, they will not cause DW.



The most common sources of full on DW are:
  • Improperly torqued trackbar bolts
  • Damaged trackbar and control arm bushings because bolts were torqued on a car lift or while the vehicle was not at ride height with the tires on the ground. When you torque trackbar and control arm bolts, the bracket pinches the bolt sleeve in the bushing, as well as the bushing itself. If this is at a geometry other than actual ride height, the bushings are twisted/bound/pre-loaded, and they will eventually fail/separate/etc. If you have a flex joint end, this does not apply for that end.
  • Ovaled out trackbar bracket holes due to DW episodes from loose bolts.

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Old 01-30-2011, 08:35 PM   #3
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this NEEDS to be a sticky!! great all in one info source thanks
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:38 PM   #4
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At the top of the TJ tech page you will see a sticky there already for DW.
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie in Utah View Post
At the top of the TJ tech page you will see a sticky there already for DW.
Sure enough. Should I insert the 2 posts into that thread?
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
Sure enough. Should I insert the 2 posts into that thread?
I don't see the harm, more info is better than not enough.
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Old 11-25-2011, 11:05 PM   #7
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Thanks For The Data, Planman !!!! You have a lot of info down in Plain English !!!!!
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:13 PM   #8
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PLANMAN!!! Great straightforward method and highly understandable. I appreciate your efforts. I feel like... FINALLY! I have found the answer.
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Old 06-30-2012, 07:02 PM   #9
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Glad to help.
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Old 07-04-2012, 06:29 AM   #10
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Awesome thread! Now I have somewhere to start! Thanks for the info!
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:49 PM   #11
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Thanks!
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Old 07-04-2012, 08:40 PM   #12
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If I have tirres that caused a wobble prior to install of a 2.5" suspension lift bc of uneven wear and then after install have full on death wobble, and then replace the tires will it go away? I have replaced the bushing track bar on the passenger side( changed the nature of the dw but still very bad )

Any ideas.
From a poor 05 TJ owner.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heydeohgee View Post
If I have tirres that caused a wobble prior to install of a 2.5" suspension lift bc of uneven wear and then after install have full on death wobble, and then replace the tires will it go away? I have replaced the bushing track bar on the passenger side( changed the nature of the dw but still very bad )

Any ideas.
From a poor 05 TJ owner.
Perform the inspection checklist.
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Old 09-21-2012, 03:58 PM   #14
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Wobble ideas on 2WD

Does this checklist apply to 2WD wrangler JK's? I have a 2007 JK that shimmys but only at 55 MPH; no other speed. The guy that diagnosed my ABS/traction lights that are on, said both front bearing assemblies need to be replaced because it is causing the wheel sensor to malfunction. I forgot to mention the wheel shimmy to him as a symptom. He said the bearings are not real bad yet but show some looseness.
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorkiter
Does this checklist apply to 2WD wrangler JK's? I have a 2007 JK that shimmys but only at 55 MPH; no other speed. The guy that diagnosed my ABS/traction lights that are on, said both front bearing assemblies need to be replaced because it is causing the wheel sensor to malfunction. I forgot to mention the wheel shimmy to him as a symptom. He said the bearings are not real bad yet but show some looseness.
A code reader would tell if you have a bad speed sensor.

Yes. The inspection checklist applies to 2wd as well.

A speed dependent shimmy is nearly always wheel/tire related. Usually, either it needs to be rebalanced, the tire tread is cupped or feathered, aftermarket wheels have been installed without removing the stock lug retainer clips, the wheel is bent, or the lugnuts were not properly tightened and torqued in a star pattern with the tire in the air (so the wheel isn't completely flush on the hub.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:45 PM   #16
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great job planman you hit it on the head , wonderfull advice to those who do not under stand the importance of proper maintnance or the geometry of the front end and its importance to safe handeling .
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:18 PM   #17
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Very useful information. Thanks again for posting this information for everyone's benefit.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:24 PM   #18
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I'm a little lost. I'm a new jeep owner as you can see from my post count. I have tried to soak up as much info as possible in the last month or so. I have read many post regarding the DW on new jeeps as well as older jeeps, but on a Brand new jeep? Some have quoted that after having tires balanced this issue went away. After watching the video of the OP if my jeep shook like that I would rebuild the entire front suspension, tire balance wouldn't even come to mind. I'm assuming that the new jeeps that are encountering this problem have been recently lifted, with improper installation? The older ones may need some attention on areas listed in the write up. Is this correct or not. I would not want to drive down the road and experience what I just watched. It would be a matter of time before the track bar, tie rod failed, I would think. Appreciate any input
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:34 PM   #19
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Just re-read Op post, very good write up. I will admit I skimmed through it the first time, it already answered some of my questions. Trying to learn as much as possible, quickly! I'll take this one to being a fng, I'll do better next time!
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:19 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JameyC View Post
Just re-read Op post, very good write up. I will admit I skimmed through it the first time, it already answered some of my questions. Trying to learn as much as possible, quickly! I'll take this one to being a fng, I'll do better next time!
The information by the OP is very dense, and requires time to digest, IMO. Very educational.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:55 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JameyC View Post
I'm a little lost. I'm a new jeep owner as you can see from my post count. I have tried to soak up as much info as possible in the last month or so. I have read many post regarding the DW on new jeeps as well as older jeeps, but on a Brand new jeep? Some have quoted that after having tires balanced this issue went away. After watching the video of the OP if my jeep shook like that I would rebuild the entire front suspension, tire balance wouldn't even come to mind. I'm assuming that the new jeeps that are encountering this problem have been recently lifted, with improper installation? The older ones may need some attention on areas listed in the write up. Is this correct or not. I would not want to drive down the road and experience what I just watched. It would be a matter of time before the track bar, tie rod failed, I would think. Appreciate any input

These are of a JK, but the basic design is the same.

The videos are kind of long at 18-19 minutes each. Hopefully, they are thorough enough to help.


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Old 03-15-2013, 12:07 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
These are of a JK, but the basic design is the same.

The videos are kind of long at 18-19 minutes each. Hopefully, they are thorough enough to help.
I'll be studying these over the weekend. Thanks!!
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4" 33" to 35"
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by planman View Post
A code reader would tell if you have a bad speed sensor.

Yes. The inspection checklist applies to 2wd as well.

A speed dependent shimmy is nearly always wheel/tire related. Usually, either it needs to be rebalanced, the tire tread is cupped or feathered, aftermarket wheels have been installed without removing the stock lug retainer clips, the wheel is bent, or the lugnuts were not properly tightened and torqued in a star pattern with the tire in the air (so the wheel isn't completely flush on the hub.
Followup to my DW issue:

Planman was right; after looking very closely at my front tires, one of them had a slight cupping on the inside edge. It was so slight you couldn't see it , just feel it. After replacing both front tires, the wobble completely went away. ( I had a very bad wobble only at 55 MPH).
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:20 PM   #24
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Cool Balance really makes thet much difference?

Think of tire and wheel balance this way think about your home celing fan if you are fortunate and buy a good one they are pretty well balanced when you install them but if you buy one with less atention to detailmost have wable to them when turned on but if you do have one pretty well dalanced turn it on both low then high notice the slight difference in the wobble now ad just a small weight to one of the blades now do the same test you will notice the wobble worse but on low tollerable but increase the speed and watch it shake about vilently and this might be 20mph now consider two wheels on the front of your jeep out of balance out of round and rotateing independantly of each other at 45 to 75mph how do you think it will handle and how long before other componants start to wear nad contribute to this shaking . Now mud stuck to wheels might as wrll be a weight you stuck on the fan it is out of balance and can and dose dramaticly change the balance of your wheels and tires compound this with larger tires with more weight and stock or poorly made tie rods ends ect and you can understand how the front of any vehicle can sucome to death wobble the best you can do is keep tires true balanced cleaned and all front end componants in good shape and you will have trouble free wobble free fun in your vehicle.keep the shiney side up .the stuff.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by gatorkiter View Post

Followup to my DW issue:

Planman was right; after looking very closely at my front tires, one of them had a slight cupping on the inside edge. It was so slight you couldn't see it , just feel it. After replacing both front tires, the wobble completely went away. ( I had a very bad wobble only at 55 MPH).
G'day - awesome info on the "death wobble"! I'd never heard the term but I have had the unfortunate pleasure of experiencing it on my jeep cherokee over a perid of time a few years ago. It would hit at 80 km per hour and when it was a bad one, I'd have to stop the bloody thing and go again. Kind of like a full-on tank slapper on a motorbike only car sized...nasty! It was vicious and no bugger could fix it as it kept coming back. Well that jeep eventually died a cracked head death but I recently got myself an '06 TJ 65th. Now I've started getting "shimmies" and am having flashbacks.....so gents, you have given me some great solutions, but I am curious - is this a jeep design/engineering flaw?? I have owned Landrover, Landcruiser, Suzuki and Daihatsu 4WDs and none of them have had this sort of problem, and to hear it happens on fairly new jeeps - what's the go??
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:52 AM   #26
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G'day - awesome info on the "death wobble"! I'd never heard the term but I have had the unfortunate pleasure of experiencing it on my jeep cherokee over a perid of time a few years ago. It would hit at 80 km per hour and when it was a bad one, I'd have to stop the bloody thing and go again. Kind of like a full-on tank slapper on a motorbike only car sized...nasty! It was vicious and no bugger could fix it as it kept coming back. Well that jeep eventually died a cracked head death but I recently got myself an '06 TJ 65th. Now I've started getting "shimmies" and am having flashbacks.....so gents, you have given me some great solutions, but I am curious - is this a jeep design/engineering flaw?? I have owned Landrover, Landcruiser, Suzuki and Daihatsu 4WDs and none of them have had this sort of problem, and to hear it happens on fairly new jeeps - what's the go??
It is not an engineering flaw.

Most people never experience DW.

It is due to lack of maintenance, poor installation or design of aftermarket parts, or simply worn or damaged parts.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:04 PM   #27
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Mine was fixed with a toe adjustment and a new steering stabilizer....I believe like everything else, each jeep is different and each solution is different.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:07 PM   #28
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:59 PM   #29
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Death wobble FIXED. Nice job on the writeup Planman. My son's TJ started wobbling a few months ago, and last week i drove along side of him to actually observe it occurring. Holy FHUCK, those front wheels (33 mud terrains) were shaking so bad side to side i'm surprised the tires stayed attached!

The whole front suspension was rebuilt about a year ago and new tires installed. So i had pretty good confidence in the integrity in the front end tightenss. But i did notice the trackbar bolt had gotten loose, but the nut was seized and couldnt tighten it any more. Whats more, i could see a witness mark from where the head of the bolt had been moving back and forth.

So i busted out the torches and pulled it apart, with the plan to machine a couple bushings to put into the oblong worn holes. Here's the step by step:

1. open up the trackbar holes with a 5/8" dia drill
2. machine a couple bushings from some 1" OD steel roundstock
3. the ID of the bushing should be 13/32" or 10mm for a nice tight fit to the M10 bolt
4. the stepped smaller OD of the bushing should be barely smaller than the hole you just drilled in the trackbar mount bracket - theoretically the hole would be 5/8" or 0.625" but probably its bigger. make it as close fitting as you can (slop is your enemy!)
5. the width of the stepped smaller OD should be about 1/8" or 0.125", which is the thickness of the bracket sheet metal. the idea is that once the bushing is installed, the inner surfaces of the bracket will be perfectly flush with the bushing.
6. i made the width of the outer diameter 1/8" also, but it doesnt really matter

installation is easy, as long your bushings fit nicely. the inner bushing can be bitch to keep aligned and in the hole. i was tempted to tack weld in place, but didnt need to.

And wholahhh! No more DW. Cost me nothing, and a morning in the garage/shop. Better than new.
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:58 AM   #30
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[QUOTE=planman;1024051]DIAGNOSIS CHECKLIST

Assuming your tire psi is 28-30, your tires/wheels have been balanced and rotated to make sure the wobble doesn't move with the rotation, here would be my order:
  1. Remove the steering stabilizer.
  2. Have someone turn the engine on and turn slowly from full lock to full lock while I visually, manually (with my hands on the components), and auditorily inspect for any play in the tie rod ends, drag link ends, sector shaft, trackbar ends/bolts/brackets, and trackbar bracket welds.
  3. Then, do the same thing but with short, sharp, quick back and forth turns of the steering wheel between the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions, instead of the slow, lock to lock approach.
  4. Then, I would remove the front trackbar to inspect the axle bracket bolt holes for ovaling and inspect the trackbar bushings for separation or cracking with a long screw driver through the bolt sleeve and the trackbar in a vise to leverage against the bushing in all directions. I would also inspect the frame side bracket for damage and the frame side end of the trackbar for up and down play using a channel lock pliers. If all is good, I would reinstall the trackbar with the tires on the ground at ride height to 55 lbs at the axle side and 65 lbs at the frame side.




Number 4 and I'm outside of my comfort zone;

I found it and I think I wish I didn't.. I've checked everything and its clear that the bolt hole on the frame side of the track arm is ovaled out.. its allowing the track arm bolt a lot of play. In the pic you can see it has so much play that the paint and metal is worn through from friction.

Calling all the kings horses and men to help put this one back together again.

Not the worse thing i've dealt with but a terrible time,

Jeff B.
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