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Old 10-19-2010, 07:26 PM   #31
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AH the good old days.
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
(Side note - I have the same make and model pacemaker as Dick Chaney - that's why my lawyer friends won't go duck hunting with me anymore.)


I have no welding knowledge so I have nothing to add to this thread...I know my buddy is a mechanic and I've never seen him unplug the battery or computer before welding in a vehicle, but as mentioned, he always puts his ground clamp near where he's welding.

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Old 10-19-2010, 07:39 PM   #33
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AH the good old days.
Yes and I can remember when the cops would make you just pour out your beer and tell you to go home
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:40 PM   #34
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Ha nobody knows what I said to s3nt3nc3dabcdefg!
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:40 PM   #35
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Yes and I can remember when the cops would make you just pour out your beer and tell you to go home
I remember when they would escort you down by the creek and drink beer with you!
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:00 PM   #36
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Alright man its suppertime and momma made pasgetti!!!!!Nums nums nums!Later good people later!
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:51 PM   #37
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I do not want to argue this point because there are some very well educated people who say it should be OK to leave the PCM, etc. connected. But there is one reason rrich gave that is hard to argue with. Disconnecting the PCM is so simple and easy to do why not do it.
There are also those here who say they have welded for a long time and never had an issue, I used to be one of those lucky people too. But as recently as two years ago I fried two computers welding on vehicles with the computer connected so now I disconnect them. Maybe I had some weird oddity happen, I don't know. The ground was close (within 3 feet) but obviously could have been closer.
Just adding my thoughts and personal experience is all.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:14 PM   #38
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Jerry B. is right, just weld the thing. The PCM will be fine.

Mellissas6570, interesting background. I believe that if any AC currents are flowing due to EMF or low freq. RF, it would be better for the PCM to be grounded/connected in order to return such current to ground. As opposed to the PCM floating without a ground. I'm a radio amateur, N3JQD, and Xmit high power RF from my Wrangler, typically anywhere from 3.8Mhz to 7.29 Mhz at up to 500W. My only problem is the darn fuel pump noise be received by the Xcvr. My entire frame and body are grounded everywhere using braided flat cable. The hood, the frame, the exhaust is even grounded thus all metal is bonded to ground and creating a suitable groundplane for Xmit. So, anyway to attenuate the fuel pump noise or eliminate it? Sorry, to hijack your post Dewry.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:18 PM   #39
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Well, WOW... This thread got a ton of reaction! I didn't expect all of the replies and everyone on here is really informative! I will side with caution and just go ahead and unplug it.... Thanks for all of the replies! ---- It seems I will have to wait until the end of the month before I even get to weld on my jeep...... Busy, Busy at work! Which is a good thing after finally getting a new job after collecting partial unemployment for over a year....... I am happy to work!
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:39 PM   #40
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not gonna be able to quote the extensive background that everyone else gets to here....i only get to go off of the 2.5 years of schooling/training and $450,000 (yeah i think that's crazy too) navy education for computer and elctronics....but being as those big things in the water are no longer made of wood there is a very extensive training with regards to EMI and RF and all the other fun electronics acronyms you get to cover when going over affects of welding and such. in your scenario, it will be fine without having to disconnect as long as you are closely grounded. unfortunately, after training and brainwashing the principles and training into me....i'm still forced to disconnect all power and unplug the right cables so i don't get in trouble.

moral of the story.....you'll be fine, and yes i have welded too so there aren't arguments. good luck on your project
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:07 PM   #41
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For those that are interested - and for the non-believers that electrical energy is transmitted when there's a spark.

The very early transmitters used what they called a spark gap. That spark-generated electrical noise radiates, not just between the electrodes but all over. The spark was turned on and off to generate a “modulated” noise - Morse Code was used to communicate information.

When electric welding a strong current in the form of a spark is generated, melting the work piece. It's not unlike the early spark transmitters. (Who remembers Morse Code? I had to be able to use it at 25 words per minute to get my Ham license (General) years ago in 1963.) WA6EMZ

Energy was transmitted through the air or any other conductive medium. That energy can be detrimental to modern day electronics - like your PCM.

If interested, do a little searching about Marconi, Nicola Tesla, and others. Simply search “spark transmitters” or the names mentioned. The early history of radio communication is very interesting. There is an interesting article even about how the Titanic, using spark transmitters had trouble communicating with the rescue ship.

Spark-gap transmitter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spark transmitters

High Frequency Noise

Unfortunately reading about it is far more complicated than simply disconnecting the battery.

Is this the Pirate Board? It seems like it by the way playing it safe is resisted so much.
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:48 PM   #42
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Unfortunately this is a Google-ing match. The point of this was to answer his question whether it was safe or not. The answer simply yes he is safe. The history lesson is nice and yes bsck in the day that would affect his electronics, but since we have ADVANCED technology past 1963 by over 40 years with current safeguards and grounding he will be fine. As with anything, unplugging the battery and removing current flow is good with ANY scenario. Also, recommending what you as a welder do is good advise.

So his question is answered, you will be fine, but as a precaution and to save Google having to search more articles to win the argument, a good suggestion is removing the battery.
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Old 10-19-2010, 11:00 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by burton160w View Post
You're also talking AC when your discussing computers. But just to disprove some of your "Bin Laden plots"


And yes, with a pacemaker it's not that you can't weld - it's that certain precautions must be taken because you're correct, EMI can disrupt pacemaker use. But it isn't explicitly forbidden.

Why do hospitals and airlines not allow you to talk on your cell phone? Because it's friggen annoying! How do doctors communicate? Via pagers using same frequencies. Why can you use your cell phone on private charter flights or jets?
And just as an aside, I weld on my TJ all the time and the guys I enjoy hanging/wheeling with like mrblaine and others weld on their Jeeps all the time too... and none of us have swallowed the rumors that you need to disconnect the battery or ECM/PCM. We don't disconnect anything, we just do the Welding 101 basic of connecting the ground clip next to what we are welding. No problems with anything, ever, and that's no rumor.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:05 AM   #44
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Jerry B. is right, just weld the thing. The PCM will be fine.

Mellissas6570, interesting background. I believe that if any AC currents are flowing due to EMF or low freq. RF, it would be better for the PCM to be grounded/connected in order to return such current to ground. As opposed to the PCM floating without a ground. I'm a radio amateur, N3JQD, and Xmit high power RF from my Wrangler, typically anywhere from 3.8Mhz to 7.29 Mhz at up to 500W. My only problem is the darn fuel pump noise be received by the Xcvr. My entire frame and body are grounded everywhere using braided flat cable. The hood, the frame, the exhaust is even grounded thus all metal is bonded to ground and creating a suitable groundplane for Xmit. So, anyway to attenuate the fuel pump noise or eliminate it? Sorry, to hijack your post Dewry.
Well grounding is good, but with everything grounded like you have it I would look for ground loops or take a mili-ohm meter and check the bonding resistance of your grounds. That would be a very hard job to do but if you have the time you can try it. Also look at the antenna cable and make sure it is good. I am not sure what your cable looks like but if it is just a coax try connecting a different cable from the antenna to the radio. Just go from the antenna to the radio, loose and not routed. You could also look at the routing of your antenna cable. Is it running down the side or bundled with the fuel pump wiring? You can also try adding a ferrite to the power leads of the fuel pump. It would be best if you could get a couple of turns through the ferrite but you may not have enough slack for that. Take a look at the following standards for some ideas. MIL-STD-188-124B, MIL-STD-1857, and MIL-HDBK-419. They will put you to sleep but they can provide some very good info. You can get all the standards for free at everyspec.com
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:58 AM   #45
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Jerry B. is right, just weld the thing. The PCM will be fine.

Mellissas6570, interesting background. I believe that if any AC currents are flowing due to EMF or low freq. RF, it would be better for the PCM to be grounded/connected in order to return such current to ground. As opposed to the PCM floating without a ground. I'm a radio amateur, N3JQD, and Xmit high power RF from my Wrangler, typically anywhere from 3.8Mhz to 7.29 Mhz at up to 500W. My only problem is the darn fuel pump noise be received by the Xcvr. My entire frame and body are grounded everywhere using braided flat cable. The hood, the frame, the exhaust is even grounded thus all metal is bonded to ground and creating a suitable groundplane for Xmit. So, anyway to attenuate the fuel pump noise or eliminate it? Sorry, to hijack your post Dewry.
Just an FYI, I would be willing to bet your fuel pump noise is comming in on your braided ground cable. We have found that at our tower sites that the braided cable acts like an antenna receiver....replace it with good shielded stranded cable and I bet it will quit.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:05 AM   #46
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I have no ed in the matter but I have found that using plastic coated 1/4 dog cable to do my grounding for my CB and radio works well.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:23 AM   #47
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Bob,

How is your coax routed. Is it in the tub or underneath.

Come visit us next week. Holmesburg Amateur Radio Club.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:47 AM   #48
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Well I guess that proves it - another "I know someone."
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:34 PM   #49
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Thanks guys and melissas6570 also. I'll start my own post and would like to continue this EMI discussion. I didn't mean to take over on Dewry's post.
Sparky; I fly out of northeast PHL, I know the building.
RRich; I just bought an old Hammurland HQ-110 tonite. 73, N3JQD.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:57 PM   #50
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An old Hammurland - haven't seen one in years. I had one, don't remember which one, 2 tuning dials and a BFO, loved it till the smoke fell out!
I used a Drake 2b - and a home brew CW transmitter. You had to be technical in those days, as opposed to just paying a fee now.

I was going to get my EE degree - specializing in antennas - til I realized that wasn't for me. I ended up buying and selling businesses (17,) houses, apartments, and shopping malls. Much more fun and far more profitable.

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