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Old 07-05-2012, 01:43 PM   #1
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I recently installed a Flow Kooler water pump (on my 98 TJ 4.0 w/A/C) I got from Quadratec and have seen a 15 - 20 degree increase in my running temp crawling, idling and at highway speed. ( I have an aluminum radiator which I changed a few years ago but other than that the rest or the coolant system is stock. ). The t-stat is a 185. Before changing the pump I would run about 210-215 on the hottest days in Yuma (easily over 115) now I am running at close to 230!
I replaced the coolant sensor hoping it could be off but no joy. Coolant is good and A/C was off in the examples stated.

Any similar experiences or ideas?

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Old 07-05-2012, 02:18 PM   #2
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yea,, get those front wheels back down & the radiator facing the wind again.... seriously,, is it a reversible(or reversed) pump? could impeller be turning backwards?

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Old 07-06-2012, 12:06 AM   #3
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yea,, get those front wheels back down & the radiator facing the wind again.... seriously,, is it a reversible(or reversed) pump? could impeller be turning backwards?
The stock was a reverse pump. The one I received was not marked with an "r" but the blades were orientated the same way as the stock pump.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:57 AM   #4
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Why not try calling Flow Kooler and asking them what the hey? Be sure to let us know what the outcome is.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:21 AM   #5
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the thermostat should open up at 210/215ish, maybe you have an air pocket in the coolant some where
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:49 AM   #6
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Are you running an mechanical or electric fan? If mech make sure your clutch is not trashed. If e-fan make sure connections are hooked up or get an adjustable temp switch for it and set temp for fan to come on @ 185* or add a toggle to manually turn the fan on as well.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:53 PM   #7
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I have the stock mech fan. I thought about the clutch (don't know how to check it) but my thinking is a bad clutch would only affect slow speeds and would disappear at highway speeds.

My next step is to replace the thermostat, and ensure the new one has a small vent hole in the top to help eliminate air pockets.

will be calling them and let you know how it goes.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:53 PM   #8
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I'd like to ask the board what is the overall opinion on Flow Kooler water pumps? Are they worth the money? Do they perform as advertised?
Looks like the pump bearing in my TJ(97) is worn so I'm looking to get a new water pump.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:24 AM   #9
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I'm no fan of the Flow Kooler for theoretical reasons... that if coolant flow is too fast, it doesn't cool as well.

I'm a huge enthusiast of the TJ's OE cooling system as it shipped from the factory. To me, I've never read/heard/seen any cooling system changes to that basic design that improved upon it.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
I'm a huge enthusiast of the TJ's OE cooling system as it shipped from the factory. To me, I've never read/heard/seen any cooling system changes to that basic design that improved upon it.
You're kidding, right? A post comes up every other day on jeep forums in which someone complains of overheating. In case you're serious, I'll post this Technical Service Bulletin from Jeep admitting a problem and providing a solution. I realize their wording makes it sound like it's a rare problem, but I assure you it's not. Too bad the clutch and fan aren't available anymore.









Also, it's obvious by this TSB that jeep knew of the problem with the 2000 and 2001 cylinder heads cracking between the #3 and #4 cylinders.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:40 PM   #11
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Did you see any happy faces, grins, laughing faces, or any other signs that I might have been "kidding"? No? Then I guess I was not kidding. I am not known for kidding... why would you attempt to imply what I said was far off enough to be "kidding"?

And if you had more thoroughly read that TSB you cited attempting to make me appear like I was "kidding", that TSB you cited very clearly says it is only for 2000/2001 TJs with the 32RH 3-speed automatic transmission.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:47 PM   #12
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Jerry is correct the OE system does fine when Operating properly. My jeep had serious issues internally that caused the cooling system to not cool but now running properly even when it's 105 degrees I can idle for 30 minutes with the a/c rocking full blast at about 200 degrees.
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:56 PM   #13
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No, I wasn't kidding and why would you imply what I said was far off enough to be "kidding"? I am not known for "kidding". And if you more thoroughly read that TSB you cited attempting to use to make me appear like I was "kidding", the TSB very clearly says it is only for 2000/2001 TJs with the 32RH 3-speed automatic transmission.
According to all the multitude of posts on the jeep forums concerning overheating, this problem is definitely not limited to just 2000 and 2001 model years with the 32RH. Do you think the cooling system in those vehicles is different than other model years? As far as I know, it's the same.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Border Dave

According to all the multitude of posts on the jeep forums concerning overheating, this problem is definitely not limited to just 2000 and 2001 model years with the 32RH. Do you think the cooling system in those vehicles is different than other model years? As far as I know, it's the same.
It has to do with incorrect metal alloy's and such.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:40 PM   #15
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I'm no fan of the Flow Kooler for theoretical reasons... that if coolant flow is too fast, it doesn't cool as well.

I'm a huge enthusiast of the TJ's OE cooling system as it shipped from the factory. To me, I've never read/heard/seen any cooling system changes to that basic design that improved upon it.
Jerry that's pure BS and a total myth.

Here's some snippets from the Billavista cooling bible. Pirate4x4.Com - The largest off roading and 4x4 website in the world.

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6) Heat spontaneously transfers from hotter objects to cooler objects. The rate at which this transfer occurs depends primarily on the difference in temperature between the two (the delta-T). When the difference is great, the transfer occurs extremely rapidly. As the temperature difference decreases - the rate of heat transfer decreases exponentially. This fact is an expression of Newton's Law of Cooling and understanding it is critical to dispelling one of the greatest and most-often quoted myths surrounding cooling systems. A good example of this law can be seen when quenching a red-hot piece of steel in a bucket of water. At first, the temperature difference (delta-T) between the red-hot steel and the water is huge - therefore the initial heat transfer occurs at a great rate - the steel initially cools very fast - almost instantaneously. However, after this initial cooling, the delta-T is much smaller, so the remaining cooling occurs much more slowly. If you removed the steel after a second or two - it has cooled a lot - but it will still be warm. To continue cooling the steel to the temp. of the water, you have to leave it in there quite a bit longer - because as it cools - the rate of cooling continually decreases as well. In short - initial cooling is fast, but subsequent cooling occurs more and more slowly until cooling that last little bit takes a long, long time. Remember this - we'll come back to it.
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For those that cling tenaciously to myths, I am going to take one last crack at forever dispelling the Granddaddy of them all when it comes to cooling systems.

The myth is stated as either:

Coolant can be pumped too fast through the engine for it to absorb enough heat, or
Coolant can be pumped too fast through the radiator for it to cool properly, or
Cooling can be improved by slowing the flow of coolant through the radiator so it cools more completely.
NONE of these is true. The simple truth is that higher coolant flow will ALWAYS result in higher heat transfer and improved cooling system performance.

The reason the myth is so persistent, is that: a) without knowledge of fluid dynamics and laws of thermal conduction it does make a kind of intuitive sense and b) it is based on a tiny kernel of truth, but that kernel of truth does not explain the overall system behaviour and so, interpreted out of context, leads to a completely erroneous conclusion.

So, let's start with the tiny nugget of truth. If you had a sealed rad (no flow) full of hot coolant, and subjected that rad to airflow, yes, the longer you left the coolant in the rad, the more it would cool. However, if you were to plot that cooling over time, you would find that the RATE at which the cooling takes place is an exponential curve that decreases with the temperature difference between the hot coolant and the air. Put another way - when the temperature difference (delta-T) between the hot coolant and the airflow is large, heat transfer (cooling) initially takes place very, very quickly (almost instantaneously). But as that happens, and the coolant cools, the delta-T becomes less, and the RATE at which further cooling happens gets less and less until the point where the coolant and air are almost the same temperature and continued cooling takes a very long time. This is Newton's law of cooling. To illustrate this, recall my "quenching steel in a bucket" analogy.

A good example of this law can be seen when quenching a red-hot piece of steel in a bucket of water. At first, the temperature difference (delta-T) between the red-hot steel and the water is huge - therefore the initial heat transfer occurs at a great rate - the steel initially cools very fast - almost instantaneously. However, after this initial cooling, the delta-T is much smaller, so the remaining cooling occurs much more slowly. If you removed the steel after a second or two - it has cooled a lot - but it will still be warm. To continue cooling the steel to the temp. of the water, you have to leave it in there quite a bit longer - because as it cools - the rate of cooling continually decreases as well. In short - initial cooling is fast, but subsequent cooling occurs more and more slowly until cooling that last little bit takes a long time.

So what does this mean? Basically it means, the longer the coolant stays in the rad, the less efficient the cooling that takes place is - to the point that the rate of cooling is so slow as to be detrimental to overall system cooling. Better to dump the big load of heat right away and go back quickly for another load than hang about waiting for a last little bit of insignificant cooling to happen.

To understand fully, we have to put our rad back into the whole system where coolant is flowing and consider the effects of flow rate on the system as a whole.

Slowing the coolant in the rad may allow that coolant (the coolant in the rad) to dissipate a little more heat (but not much), and at an ever decreasing rate (exponentially decreasing) BUT since the cooling system is a closed-loop system, you also have to consider what’s happening outside the radiator if you slow the flow - especially to the coolant in the engine. If you slow the coolant through the rad, you slow the coolant through the engine too. And this coolant is subject to the same laws - the greater the initial temperature difference between the engine and the coolant, the greater the rate at which the coolant absorbs the heat from the engine. BUT - if we leave the coolant in contact with the engine for longer by slowing the flow through the rad, the delta-T between engine and coolant decreases and with it the rate at which the coolant in the engine absorbs the heat from the engine. Meanwhile the engine is banging away producing heat, but the coolant is absorbing it at a slower and slower rate - that heat has to go somewhere, and since the slow coolant is becoming less efficient at absorbing it - it stays in the metal - and the metal overheats!

Meanwhile, back at the rad, you're wasting time trying to shed the last little bit of heat when the delta is small instead of carrying away the “big chunks” of heat. And the situation just gets worse and worse in a downward spiral.

Imagine emptying a truckload of sand using a small wide-mouth container vs. a larger narrow-mouth container. The job will get done quicker by making more trips with the smaller container that takes less time to fill and empty, rather than taking the time to fill the larger narrow-mouth container and then taking the time to empty it – that extra in the larger narrow-mouth container isn’t worth it – better to dump the load and go back for more.

Or, how about this for those who are fans of elaborate metaphors
Imagine a circular train track with two stations opposite each other and rail cars that fill the whole track. One station has an endless supply of passengers trying to get on and the other is where they get off and disperse. Your job as the train driver is to move as many people as possible to keep them from accumulating at the embarkation station and crushing each other. Now imagine the passenger cars are funnel-shaped on the inside. This means the first big batch of people can get on and off quickly, but completely filling the car takes a lot longer as people have to squeeze into the narrower portion.
So, you could drive the train slowly, only moving along after each car has completely filled and completely emptied… but efficiency will be greatly reduced as it takes so long to get those last few people on or off the car – meanwhile the never ending supply of people at the embarkation station never stops and the system backs up and the people get crushed because, even though more people get on or off each car, the whole system is less efficient.


OR

You could drive the train fast, quickly loading and unloading the big, easy-to-fill, portion of each car, forget about the smaller portion, and keep picking up and dumping off a large group of passengers as fast as you can. In fact – the faster you go, the better…the more efficient at moving large numbers of people the system will be. Screw the last stragglers – they’re insignificant and won’t help you – just move the big chunk and move on, going back for more, more often.

So – you want high flow / high (turbulent) speed so it picks up and dumps off the most heat quickly – it’s inefficient to try and shed the last little bit of heat when the delta is small, and can lead to overheating because you’re wasting time not carrying away the “big chunks” of heat.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:01 PM   #16
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Jerry that's pure BS and a total myth.

Here's some snippets from the Billavista cooling bible. Pirate4x4.Com - The largest off roading and 4x4 website in the world.
Dang just read your long quote. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for posting that
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:18 PM   #17
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WELLLL. Don't know if I want in on this or not. But here goes. First the Pirate post is right on. For a perfect world. Inside an engine the water must follow many path's to get from the pump to the radiator. The water wants to flow in the least restrictive path. It must be forced into going into little nooks and crannies from the front of the engine, "easy path" to the rear of the engine, "restrictive path" to come in contact with the all walls where it makes contact and picks up the heat. The inside of the casting is very rough with sharp edges and casting flash impeding the smooth flow of water thru the engine. This can create small eddy flows where the water does not flow smoothly past and make contact with the walls. You can see the effect in a river bend where objects will circle in the bend of a stream for a while before being let go. This allows those small areas to create steam pockets which increase heat. In Circle track, engines water flow is very carefully studied with walls sawn off blocks and heads and plastic view windows put in to watch what happens at various flow volumes and pressures.
Now with all that said. the restriction in his system is still the same unless he changed his brand of thermostat or installed it upside down. An "open" 185 stat has a window or a better word is Curtain area that when open will only allow a fixed flow at a fixed pressure. So his system is only going to flow more water if it has been given more head pressure. I am not referring to his Cap pressure. But the pressure his pump is putting out which is most likely more if it is a more efficient impeller. Lots of possibilities. There could be cavitation in the system due to the increase of fins on the wheel and the angle of the inlet/outlet. Tons of things. So your both right. I am waiting to see what the MFG says.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:47 PM   #18
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Here is a quickie older article about flow restrictors and pump volumes and pressures.
Critical Engine Cooling Technology - Circle Track Magazine
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:25 PM   #19
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And here is a differing view from another smart guy.
Stewart Components - High Performance Automotive Cooling
Who is right. Lots of smart guys on both sides. I know what works in my motors and I run HV pumps and a wetting agent.
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:50 AM   #20
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All good info, Thank you! I will let you what happens when I change the thermostat. It will be a week or two before I can do it, I am in the middle of a PCS move and my house hold goods do not arrive at my new base until the 11th. Then there is the unpacking. . .
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:21 AM   #21
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Well I finally changed the thermostat to a "RobertShaw" brand and man did it make a difference! I am surprised "FlowCooler" does not put a greater emphasis on swapping the thermostat when installing their pumps. Now the temp gauge barely moves off 180 at highway speed with the a/c on.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:49 AM   #22
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AJV, glad to hear your problem is solved. I've only ever heard good about RobertShaw tstats.
Gunner just an FYI, the FlowKooler pumps have a disc welded to the back of the impeller fins intended to reduce or eliminate cavitation, one of their main selling points... so I was figuring cav wasn't the issue.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:10 AM   #23
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Now the temp gauge barely moves off 180 at highway speed with the a/c on.
That pretty much sends this theory down in flames:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
I'm no fan of the Flow Kooler for theoretical reasons... that if coolant flow is too fast, it doesn't cool as well.

I'm a huge enthusiast of the TJ's OE cooling system as it shipped from the factory. To me, I've never read/heard/seen any cooling system changes to that basic design that improved upon it.
Given all the cracked radiator tanks reported on this forum, it would seem that the "basic design" has at least some room for improvement.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:47 PM   #24
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i had a flow cooler pump and a rs stat in my stock engine, ran cooler than all my friends jeeps, put the same in my 4.7 stroker engine same runs cool, i do have a diff radiator and a electric fan.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:01 PM   #25
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Well I finally changed the thermostat to a "RobertShaw" brand and man did it make a difference!
Where did you buy the Robert Shaw t-stat from?
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:58 PM   #26
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I think I got it from qudratec, a lot of parts places will carry them though. I would be interested to see if a jeep would run cooler with the RS stat compared to a completely stock setup.
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Old 10-15-2012, 11:56 PM   #27
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I think I got it from qudratec, a lot of parts places will carry them though.
I know you're able to order them from different places, but the manufacturer had stopped making the RS t-stats for several months and nobody had them in stock. I'll call Quadratec in the morning and order one.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:18 PM   #28
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I know you're able to order them from different places, but the manufacturer had stopped making the RS t-stats for several months and nobody had them in stock. I'll call Quadratec in the morning and order one.
EDIT: I found out the manufacturer still isn't making the 195 degree t-stats and hasn't been for eight months. Either you got lucky and got a left-over one or you bought a 180 degree t-stat, which they have started making again.
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:51 PM   #29
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I got the 180 degree.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:19 PM   #30
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Oh but per common Internet lore, vomited repeatedly by some forum members, the faster coolant flow will make you overheat and a 180* stat won't have you run any cooler either right? You and I must have magic jeeps cause when I ran my 180 my jeep never got over 190* either..... It's magic I tell ya!!!

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