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Old 05-02-2014, 03:46 PM   #1
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Jeep 4.0L Supercharger

I was at Easter jeep safari I was looking at a vendor sellling jeep superchargers for my TJ using re-purposed GM 3.8L Eaton M62 superchargers direct bolt on. Has anyone ever used this company's product. There kits are $2000 looked pretty simple bolt on package.


http://www.jeepsuperchargers.com/TJ_...ercharger.html

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Old 05-02-2014, 04:09 PM   #2
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No experience with that company, but I would have these big concerns:
-no intercooler, you really need to have one of these to work well
-hard to enrichen enough with 1 additional injector-better to use larger ones on each cylinder
-ECU will be working hard to hold closed loop (14.7:1 a/f) at most boost pressures
-1 bar MAP sensors do NOT work well on boosted engines. Clamping only holds 5 V w/o introducing the needed extra fuel in boost

You might check out Avenger Superchargers. I have been very happy with mine.
http://avengersuperchargers.com/

EDIT: FTC does seem to come with a 2bar MAP-so that is good, still I would be concerned for the other reasons

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Old 05-04-2014, 10:05 AM   #3
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When I here someone thinking about supercharging a Jeep the two most recommended brands I hear are RIPP and Avenger. I believe the RIPP is cheaper but they offer similar performance.

The brand you mentioned I've never heard and as far as I know the best thing looking so far for that supercharger is the cost. Does it come the intercooler kit and intake?
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:24 PM   #4
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I'm not the creator of the 4.0 kits, but am a distributor who sells them independently. I was first a customer back when the 4.0 kit was still in the early design stages, I bought a kit locally from the builder and was blown away by the performance and simplicity of the kit. He had no interest in selling them online and I took on that role in my spare time. I ran one of these kits on my 99 XJ for 20K miles with no issues.

-no intercooler, you really need to have one of these to work well
Absolutely no need at 5-6lbs of boost, at 8 and above charge air cooling is needed.

-hard to enrichen enough with 1 additional injector-better to use larger ones on each cylinder
When you do this you have to reprogram the entire engine operating map, we feel the factory knows best when it comes to oem tuning. We leave all out of boost operating conditions stock for reliability and emissions reasons. We send the fuel through the supercharger to cool the charge air temps and evenly distribute the fuel to all the cylinders.

-ECU will be working hard to hold closed loop (14.7:1 a/f) at most boost pressures
-1 bar MAP sensors do NOT work well on boosted engines. Clamping only holds 5 V w/o introducing the needed extra fuel in boost
We clamp the oem map sensor but the Split Second FTC1 has its own map sensor, it adds fuel and pulls timing based on boost levels. Under any level of boost, regardless of RPM the oem ecu goes into open loop and does not try to maintain 14.7 AFR.

To date we have sold 60+ of these kits with every single customer satisfied.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:38 PM   #5
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I found this kit via this thread. Checked out your website and your feedback on ebay. While I see limitations to the kit the quality vs price point looked good to me. I just recently ordered and its supposed to arrive Tuesday. So I'll be giving this a try.

One thing, when I ordered I forgot to specify no AC on my 03. Do you know the belt I'll need?
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Old 05-11-2014, 05:37 PM   #6
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I can agree with your answers and I am sure you can make the system work. I commend you on making a very affordable system-that is not easy to do.
I am not able to get my stock ECU to go into open loop very easily under boost conditions and find the ECU works very hard holding closed loop until the very high RPM ranges. Even then it only occasionally lets go of closed loop. The thing is very stubborn.
I had to use a Split Second enricher and programmed it to start at about 2 lbs boost. I have gotten away with not needing to use a spark retard but it would help some. I clearly see a shift into the 10.5-12 A/F on my wideband above 2 lbs. Are you sure you are getting out of closed loop in boost conditions?
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Old 05-11-2014, 06:23 PM   #7
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By default we assume you have AC and ship the belt for AC unless otherwise specified.
You would need a 83.6" belt, a 96.6" belt was supplied with your kit. If you can't find exactly 83.6" + or - a few tenths will work fine.

On my personal jeep a 99 XJ, it transitioned from closed loop to open loop at 0 VAC, so whether I was using .1 psi or 1+psi it went into open loop without regard to RPM. This was observed using a scangauge OBD2 monitor. I had the oem map sensor seeing boost. What year is your jeep?
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:29 PM   #8
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Mine is a 2003 4.0L. I am running a programmable Split Sec MAP sensor that I calibrated over 0-1.7 bar range. I wrote my own voltage map for it and tuned it to some nice trim numbers. I think the earlier Jeep ECU's may have been a little more permissive going into open loop. Emission requirements always tighten with time and the 2003 probably holds closed loop more aggressively. I know mine will rarely go open loop, except when the engine is still warming to running temp. After that it is on a hard hold.
They have reprogrammers for 2005 and up. I would like someone like Diablo to open a door into reprogramming the stock ECU. Nobody seems to have any interest in doing it though, so I'm strictly piggyback.
So if I want a richer fuel mixture than 14.7:1 in boost, I have to intercept the O2 sensors and send a leaner signal to the ECU. The Split Sec Enricher unit does a good job for me. I'd sure like to find a way into the ECU.....

As an aside-do you run a wideband gauge on yours? What kind of numbers do you show in boost?
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:12 PM   #9
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Our tuners are plug and play from 97-04. 05-06 require splicing and a different program due to more complicated emissions and ECU changes. That leads me to believe my 99 should be similar to yours. What size injectors are you using?
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:22 PM   #10
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I am using 34 lb Ford Performance Racing injectors part number M-9593-LU34A. No adapters necessary, they just drop right in to the rail and hook up with the stock wiring connectors. They come in sets of 8, so I have 2 spares!
Boost levels up to 91/2 lbs in the winter and I dial it back to 8 lbs in the summer. That is all that the premium fuel will take before it rattles.
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:35 PM   #11
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Yep, been there done that, I ran 9-10lbs in the winter with no issues. Afr on mine (I had a wideband) would instantly drop from 14.7 at part throttle to 11.5 -+ a few points as it went through the RPM's in boost. I'm still trying to think why your map isn't switching to open loop when it sees boost instantly. Even with no tune mine would. Is it plumbed directly to the pressure side of the manifold and not T'd in with anything else that could cause a less accurate reading?
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:49 PM   #12
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Definitely seeing manifold pressure and my vacuum/boost gauge is in the line that feeds my MAP sensor. The factory calibration of the ECU is known to hold closed loop very aggressively at least on my year (and subsequent years as far as I know). There is a reason that these ECU's were programmed around a narrow band O2 sensor-they want to hold emissions tight.

I can definitely control my A/F ratio with the Split Sec Enricher-just turn the dials to set the voltage change. It responds very well and the ECU thinks it is still holding at 14.7 in closed loop
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:12 AM   #13
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Thanks for the info on the belt. I work in a shop attached to a napa store so getting the right one shouldnt be an issue.

I figured you'd be sending one for AC and knew I'd messed up not giving you the info. No big deal.
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colorubi View Post
Definitely seeing manifold pressure and my vacuum/boost gauge is in the line that feeds my MAP sensor.
Colorubi-
What model Jeep? trans? Any PICS of your setup? Did you ever dyno it?
The MAP you are refering to above, is that the stock MAP or the SS MAP?
What are your intake manifold air temps as measured by the stock IAT sensor mounted in the stock location in the intake manifold?

I definitely know that the '97-'01 easily go into open loop when stock MAP sensor sees 0vac-0.5psi boost. Just have to clamp the signal to keep it from going over about 4.85v so it won't throw a CEL. This is usually not a problem at altitude like Utah/Colorado.
'03 might be different, IDK.

No intercooler is needed. Using the 7th injector and injecting fuel thru the supercharger acts like a 'chemical/liquid intercooler' and decreases intake air charge by 60-70 degrees. That is about the same as an intercooler temp decrease. add and inject Meth/washer fluid and drop temps another 50-60 degrees.

The kit uses a 60 pound 7th injector and I have used a 80 pound 7th injector on my 11psi Sprintex kit. Stock injectors on '97-99 are 22lb/hr at 49psi. Using 703 or 784 injectors are 24lb/hr at 49psi.

29. Fuel Injector Selection Total Amount Fuel HP Boost
22lb/hr x 6……...........stock...........….132pounds fuel…..190HP…..stock
30lb/hr x 6……....................…………….180pounds fuel…..260HP…..6 lbs boost
22lb/hr x 6 + 50lb/hr 7th inj….......…..182pounds fuel…..265HP…..6 lbs boost
24lb/hr x 6 + 50lb/hr 7th inj…….........194pounds fuel…..275HP…..7 lbs boost
22lb/hr x 6 + 60lb/hr 7th inj…......192pounds fuel…..275HP…..7 lbs boost
24lb/hr x 6 + 60lb/hr 7th inj…….........204pounds fuel…..290HP…..8 lbs boost
34lb/hr x 6……..................…...……….204pounds fuel…..290HP…..8 lbs boost
22lb/hr x 6 + 80lb/hr 7th inj….......…..212pounds fuel…..310HP…..10 lbs boost
24lb/hr x 6 + 80lb/hr 7th inj….......…..224pounds fuel…..320HP…..11 lbs boost
36lb/hr x 6…….............…......…..……….216pounds fuel…..315HP…..10 lbs boost

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:24 PM   #15
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You might check out Avenger Superchargers. I have been very happy with mine.http://avengersuperchargers.com/
Their 4.0L kit seems to be only for '05-'06 and uses Diablo to retune stock ecu.
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:45 PM   #16
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-no intercooler, you really need to have one of these to work well
Absolutely no need at 5-6lbs of boost, at 8 and above charge air cooling is needed.
Every blower is better with an IC, even at 5lbs. You don't "need" one, but you will have more power and better mpg with one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBuchta View Post
-hard to enrichen enough with 1 additional injector-better to use larger ones on each cylinder
When you do this you have to reprogram the entire engine operating map, we feel the factory knows best when it comes to oem tuning. We leave all out of boost operating conditions stock for reliability and emissions reasons. We send the fuel through the supercharger to cool the charge air temps and evenly distribute the fuel to all the cylinders.
OEM tunes work the best for sure, unless they are designed for NA and you are FI. Then a custom tune is far far better. Adding one injector, to spray fuel through a manifold designed to flow only air, is an even worse idea. put an EGT sensor on each port and you will see they are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBuchta View Post
Yep, been there done that, I ran 9-10lbs in the winter with no issues. Afr on mine (I had a wideband) would instantly drop from 14.7 at part throttle to 11.5 -+ a few points as it went through the RPM's in boost. I'm still trying to think why your map isn't switching to open loop when it sees boost instantly. Even with no tune mine would. Is it plumbed directly to the pressure side of the manifold and not T'd in with anything else that could cause a less accurate reading?
05-06 jeeps have a huge 20 second delay to switch to open loop. They run closed loop at wot until then, or if custom tuned. The wranglers seem to respond weird to tuning sometimes. I think that diablo has some stuff that is incorrectly mapped. The VE tables need to be adjusted way more than with other speed density vehicles.

I do think that your kit is a good starting point. Adding bigger injectors and split second would be the first step for non 05-06 TJs. Adding injectors and a custom tune for the 05+ would be ideal. If there was a way to fit an intercooler then it would kick ass! I'm a Ford SCT and DCX Diablo dealer.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:16 PM   #17
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You asked:
What model Jeep? trans? Any PICS of your setup? Did you ever dyno it?
The MAP you are refering to above, is that the stock MAP or the SS MAP?
What are your intake manifold air temps as measured by the stock IAT sensor mounted in the stock location in the intake manifold?

I definitely know that the '97-'01 easily go into open loop when stock MAP sensor sees 0vac-0.5psi boost. Just have to clamp the signal to keep it from going over about 4.85v so it won't throw a CEL. This is usually not a problem at altitude like Utah/Colorado.
'03 might be different, IDK.



Wow, I feel like I'm being cross examined on the stand, but I'll try to answer a couple things!
2003 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Never dyno tested it, but I sure have tuned it with a permanent mounted wideband. MAP sensor is a Split Second, cause I wanted more boost that Mr. Schuler sets them up with. I calibrated it to 5 volts at 10 psi boost pressure, then filled in higher pressures to hold at 5 volts at higher boost levels. I have never thrown a MAP over-voltage trouble code.
The intercooler drops the intake temps around 20-25 degrees at most. I can watch the temps climb as I am accelerating and it takes a minute or so before they drop again at easy cruise speeds.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:30 PM   #18
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Oh- and 5 speed manual transmission. Had to use a Split Second Enricher to override the Obstinate ECU that won't let go of closed loop. (The SS Enricher is a glorified electronic power valve, like in your old Holley carburetor, that can be programmed to do what you want to richen the mixture at given manifold pressures)
Also- I am quite certain I can get away with a little higher boost pressures up here on the mountain. I kept increasing my boost pressure until the premium fuel ( 91 octane here- we can't get your low altitude fuel up here) wouldn't let me go any higher.
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:36 PM   #19
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By question how much do you guys like your superchargers?
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:31 AM   #20
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Thanks, nice clean install. Like the CAI custom duct work.

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to learn all the different variations out there.

Where is your stock MAP sensor? Is it on the TB? I can't see/tell in the pics. Is it plumbed to see boost?
I'm surprised that the IC only decreases temp 20-25 degrees.

The enricher blocks the O2 sensor signal and only sends the ecu a 14.7 AFR voltage. This way you can run richer with the larger injectors, the O2 sensor will read richer and the SS Enricher will block that richer O2 reading and send a 14.7 value and fool the ecu into thinking that it is happy at 14.7. This is the only way to richer it while staying in closed loop. Otherwise the ecu will try to compensate for the richer O2 value and decrease the injector time.

How much do we like superchargers? I can only speak for myself, but the difference is night and day. I have 3 XJs, one 32" mtrs, stock 3.55 gears, auto, 10pound sprintex 265rwhp. One with M62 kit with 210rwhp and one stock with 140rwhp 4.56 33 mtrs auto. The one non supercharged XJ even with gears is a dog in comparison. You really have to experience a supercharged 4.0L engine. If you are in the Philadelphia area anytime give a shout.
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:43 AM   #21
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Huhhhhh...Texas why do you isolate me so much?
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:15 AM   #22
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I don't use the stock MAP sensor. The SS MAP sensor is calibrated over the entire running range of manifold pressures. I do have the stock MAP sensor on the left front of the intercooler body under the blower in case I have a failure of my Split Second unit. I can disconnect the voltage feed wire from my SS and connect it to the stock sensor for the purpose of getting back home if necessary. The stock sensor is calibrated way off for my needs but would help me limp home in a pinch. I have found the SS Map sensor to be extremely reliable-just don't let it get wet!
The Enricher on my Jeep intercepts the O2 sensors and outputs a lower voltage back to the ECU telling it that it is LEAN- the ECU compensates with more injector on time. It thinks that it needs more fuel and feeds it under boost conditions that you set.

As to your inquiry: By question how much do you guys like your superchargers?
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Old 06-02-2014, 06:32 PM   #23
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I had a brain fart on the SS Enricher. Ignore what I wrote, it isn't a 'O2 clamp' but a O2 manipulator and allows fuel enrichment by manipulating the O2 sensor reading. Sorry my oops.

Do you do any boost timing retard?
What do you plug into the stock MAP sensor connector? What signal does it get?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand how it works.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:14 PM   #24
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[QUOTE=

Do you do any boost timing retard?
What do you plug into the stock MAP sensor connector? What signal does it get?
QUOTE]

I do not use any timing retard controls. I got the 2 Bar MAP sensor that does not have that feature. I wanted to do this without taking timing off for simplicity. I could get a little more performance if I pulled a few degrees of timing and hell I might try it sometime in the future with another unit. For now we are 100% factory timing controls.
Again, I EXCLUSIVELY use the Split Second MAP sensor to run the engine with the supercharger system.
The stock MAP sensor again is SOLELY in place as a backup in case the Split Second MAP drops dead. There is a 3 wire connector on the stock MAP. They are orange, black w/ blue tracer and green w/ red tracer. The green wire is the output voltage that goes to the ECU. It sends the voltage signal that tells the ECU what the manifold pressure is. The ECU uses this to help determine injector pulse time. With my Spilt Second MAP sensor, I cut the green output wire and then use the purple output wire from the SS unit to feed into the green wire back to the ECU. The other end of my cut green wire is hanging from the stock MAP sensor connector. I used weather-pack connectors so that I can quickly change over to either MAP sensor as needed.

So the stock MAP is sitting completely and functionally ready to go-just change the wire connector as needed. You can see where I mounted the stock sensor by the intercooler and then just "Tee" spliced my manifold pressure hose in.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:00 AM   #25
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I could get a little more performance if I pulled a few degrees of timing and hell I might try it sometime in the future with another unit.
If you gain power by lowering the timing, then you are way past the safe range!
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:34 AM   #26
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I'd put more boost in it-just a little
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:03 PM   #27
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Where does the hose go that comes out of the stock MAP sensor? That hose looks like it 'Ts' a few times. Where does it attach to?- after the TB/before the SC or after the SC?
That is amazing no boost timing retard at ?6psi. I guess the altitude allows you to do this. At sea level we run 1-1.5*/1psi retard. Maybe I am just too conservative/scared to try less boost timing retard. I do have a suspicion that none is needed up to 5-6psi.
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:51 PM   #28
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Pressure hose originates at the intake manifold after the supercharger. The components that are fed are:
Split Second 2 bar MAP sensor
Stock 1 bar MAP sensor
Split Second Enricher
Autometer Vac/Boost gauge

The Vac/Boost gauge lets me monitor for any leaks too!

No spark retard is being used and I boost to a maximum of 10 psi
I am at 5000 ft so I am dealing with about 25 in mercury atmospheric pressure (12.25 psi) Sea level values of course are 29.9 in mercury or 14.7 psi.
So my total maximum operational pressure is 12.25+10=22.25 psi. That is a good 1.5 bar pressure system. Any higher and I get the premium pump gas to start rattling. Again, I am quite certain I can get away with a little more boost at altitude, because we start at a lower atmospheric pressure here! (which also helps me be a better triathlete )
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Old 06-04-2014, 05:09 AM   #29
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Now I understand. Thanks for all the info.

6psi and 10psi at sea level are not quite so forgiving. If I get brave I might dial back some timing on the 6psi system until it knocks. I might just be able to get to 0 boost timing retard. I believe it is possible as the stock 4.0 can tolerate an additional 5-6* advance without knocking.
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Old 06-04-2014, 10:47 AM   #30
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I'd think you could work 7-8 lbs at sea level with a couple degrees retard and 93 octane fuel.

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