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Old 03-19-2013, 10:28 AM   #31
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:04 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA_Rider View Post
I understand that, and Ive wheeled there too, but I have yet to see how SA's are better than high clearance LA's on a LCG rig. It is not an open ended statement, theres a reason that all the crawlers and hill climb rigs are running LA's. Show me how a SA can out flex a LA. Arm length does play a role in supension and offroad ability, or there would be a super short arm setup
You're missing the point. The length of the arm is not what you should be focusing on. The mounting points dictate the length of the control arm, simply making the arms longer does nothing. If you really want to start getting picky about arm length, then tell us what exactly makes a long arm, a short arm, a mid arm, etc.. Those custom rigs you're seeing aren't striving to make the longest arms possible.

Many of the bolt-on long arm kits you will find are made for ease of installation and packaging, and sacrifice geometry as a result. If you truly want a good performing suspension, you should really take the already given advice and start learning. You could build your own suspension that outperforms any of the bolt-on crap you'll find.

If I had to start over again, the very first purchase I would have made would have been a welder. I'm slowly catching up, but had I not wasted money elsewhere years ago I would be so much further ahead.

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Old 03-19-2013, 11:11 AM   #33
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This is my Rubicon Express Extreme Duty 4 1/2" system. I love it and I'm very happy with it, but there's one thing I haven't seen here yet. You can install short arms in your driveway in a weekend, but as soon as you say "Long arms" be prepared for words like "drilling, cutting, and welding"!
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA_Rider View Post
I understand that, and Ive wheeled there too
And you've never seen anyone hit a control arm? Unless you were steering clear of the fun stuff, I'm not sure how that's possible. I beat the hell out of my mounts and arms that day but that was before I did my high-clearance setup. But compared to most "LA" equipped rigs, the under-frame footprint was still significantly less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA_Rider View Post
but I have yet to see how SA's are better than high clearance LA's on a LCG rig.
Now you're getting into muddy waters and unless you have a decent amount of experience with custom suspensions, then I don't think we'll view things the same way. But, for the sake of comparisons, let's take what is technically a 'short arm' suspension--my old high clearance setup pictured on page 1--and any off the shelf 'long arm kit' that someone such as you would purchase and install on your TJ. Since I'm a fan of numbers and since I feel that they more accurately represent true differences than talk does, we'll go with some link suspension calculator screen shots that I've done in the past.

My old setup:


RC/BDS/Rustys long arm kit:




Clayton




So, starting with the RC/BDS/Rustys setup--this is catered to the bolt on fellow who, for lack of a better term, drinks the KoolAid. Due to a lack of fundamental understanding and/or laziness, this person falls into the hole that these types of manufacturers love....this buyer takes the manufacturer's claims at face value. Claims such as "more articulation", "better stability", and "improved climbing performance." Instead of actually delving into how suspensions work and determining what affects articulation, stability and climbing performance, they hit the buy button. They end up with sky-high antisquat numbers (you won't climb for a crap), oversteer, poor clearance, and an overall nightmare, not to even mention the front suspension that treats your axle housing like a torsion bar. This is the worst of the worst. It literally puts ease of installation and packaging ahead of anything else. You will wind up with a suspension that performs worse than stock, despite what you think or want to believe after spending that kind of money.

Next up, a Clayton-type setup. The Clayton suspension is widely considered to be one of the top off the shelf 'long arm' kits out there. And while it's much improved over the BDS et al. stuff, it still lacks due to the stock lower axle mounting points. They're too low, which rob clearance and force the arm to be at a higher angle. This results in borderline-high antisquat numbers and excessive oversteer characteristics. This setup utilizes maximum-length arms to lower the angle, which is inefficient in terms of clearance and angle reduction. Moving the lower axle mounts up at the axle will help out all of the shortfalls, leaving only the large under-frame footprint.

Lastly, that pidly short arm setup. Antisquat numbers are in the acceptable range (my personal range of ~50-80), neutral roll steer (none), and unbeatable clearance and footprint. Due to the improved mount locations, I'm able to flatten out the lower arms (angle > length in regards to travel and geometry) to the point where they're significantly flatter than Clayton's while also being much shorter, providing me the clearance that comes with that. Excellent on and off the road with zero drama or issues at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA_Rider View Post
It is not an open ended statement, theres a reason that all the crawlers and hill climb rigs are running LA's.
What exactly, in technical terms with opinions and garbage thrown out the door, is that reason?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA_Rider View Post
Show me how a SA can out flex a LA.
I just did and that suspension wasn't even built for "max flex." But just to show you how overused, overappreciated, and misunderstood the term "flex" is, let's do a comparison. Take two rigs on the exact same springs--Currie 3"--one with my old short arm setup and the other with the Clayton setup. Does the amount of shock travel those two rigs can support differ in the slightest due to the arm length?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMA_Rider View Post
Arm length does play a role in supension and offroad ability, or there would be a super short arm setup
If arm length is so important, why did I minimize the length of my front arms when I built my custom suspension? My frame was bare, I had plenty of tube and could've gone with any arm length I wanted. Why did I minimize it?
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:34 PM   #35
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:42 PM   #36
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Re: Long arm kits

I don't have much knowledge of the long/short debate other than that I am absolutely positive I would rather have a long Johnson than a short one.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by nick50471 View Post
I don't have much knowledge of the long/short debate other than that I am absolutely positive I would rather have a long Johnson than a short one.
I hear long arms are good if you are a boxer.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geiman View Post
1.You're missing the point. The length of the arm is not what you should be focusing on. The mounting points dictate the length of the control arm, simply making the arms longer does nothing. If you really want to start getting picky about arm length, then tell us what exactly makes a long arm, a short arm, a mid arm, etc.. Those custom rigs you're seeing aren't striving to make the longest arms possible.
2.Many of the bolt-on long arm kits you will find are made for ease of installation and packaging, and sacrifice geometry as a result. If you truly want a good performing suspension, you should really take the already given advice and start learning. You could build your own suspension that outperforms any of the bolt-on crap you'll find.
3.If I had to start over again, the very first purchase I would have made would have been a welder. I'm slowly catching up, but had I not wasted money elsewhere years ago I would be so much further ahead.
1. I see that you are as ignorant as Imped when it come to arm length.
2. I said high clearance LA, which means not the cheap off the shelf bolt-ons
3. And this adds to your argument how?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
1. And you've never seen anyone hit a control arm? Unless you were steering clear of the fun stuff, I'm not sure how that's possible. I beat the hell out of my mounts and arms that day but that was before I did my high-clearance setup. But compared to most "LA" equipped rigs, the under-frame footprint was still significantly less.
2. Now you're getting into muddy waters and unless you have a decent amount of experience with custom suspensions, then I don't think we'll view things the same way. But, for the sake of comparisons, let's take what is technically a 'short arm' suspension--my old high clearance setup pictured on page 1--and any off the shelf 'long arm kit' that someone such as you would purchase and install on your TJ. Since I'm a fan of numbers and since I feel that they more accurately represent true differences than talk does, we'll go with some link suspension calculator screen shots that I've done in the past.
3. So, starting with the RC/BDS/Rustys setup--this is catered to the bolt on fellow who, for lack of a better term, drinks the KoolAid. Due to a lack of fundamental understanding and/or laziness, this person falls into the hole that these types of manufacturers love....this buyer takes the manufacturer's claims at face value. Claims such as "more articulation", "better stability", and "improved climbing performance." Instead of actually delving into how suspensions work and determining what affects articulation, stability and climbing performance, they hit the buy button. They end up with sky-high antisquat numbers (you won't climb for a crap), oversteer, poor clearance, and an overall nightmare, not to even mention the front suspension that treats your axle housing like a torsion bar. This is the worst of the worst. It literally puts ease of installation and packaging ahead of anything else. You will wind up with a suspension that performs worse than stock, despite what you think or want to believe after spending that kind of money.
4.Next up, a Clayton-type setup. The Clayton suspension is widely considered to be one of the top off the shelf 'long arm' kits out there. And while it's much improved over the BDS et al. stuff, it still lacks due to the stock lower axle mounting points. They're too low, which rob clearance and force the arm to be at a higher angle. This results in borderline-high antisquat numbers and excessive oversteer characteristics. This setup utilizes maximum-length arms to lower the angle, which is inefficient in terms of clearance and angle reduction. Moving the lower axle mounts up at the axle will help out all of the shortfalls, leaving only the large under-frame footprint.
5.Lastly, that pidly short arm setup. Antisquat numbers are in the acceptable range (my personal range of ~50-80), neutral roll steer (none), and unbeatable clearance and footprint. Due to the improved mount locations, I'm able to flatten out the lower arms (angle > length in regards to travel and geometry) to the point where they're significantly flatter than Clayton's while also being much shorter, providing me the clearance that comes with that. Excellent on and off the road with zero drama or issues at all.
6.What exactly, in technical terms with opinions and garbage thrown out the door, is that reason?
7.I just did and that suspension wasn't even built for "max flex." But just to show you how overused, overappreciated, and misunderstood the term "flex" is, let's do a comparison. Take two rigs on the exact same springs--Currie 3"--one with my old short arm setup and the other with the Clayton setup. Does the amount of shock travel those two rigs can support differ in the slightest due to the arm length?
8.If arm length is so important, why did I minimize the length of my front arms when I built my custom suspension? My frame was bare, I had plenty of tube and could've gone with any arm length I wanted. Why did I minimize it?
1. I have yet to see a rig with a true high clearance LA setup (mounts above the frame rail) get hung up on the mounts or arms. Maybe you dont know how to properly set one up, have you thought about that.
2. You dont know me, if you did you'd know I would not go get a off the shelf bolt-on LA, I wouldnt be happy with it unless I made it, and made it to perfectly meet my needs. (true double triangulated 4link front and rear w/ full hydro)
3. You may not have noticed but I don't drink the "KoolAid" B.S. that you, Jerry, and UnlimitedLJ try to serve to the newbs.
4. Still not High clearance, and I know a guy who I have seen hit his LCA frame mounts and get hung up.
5. You still wont have the available droop that a LA setup would give you, the longer arms along with decreased angle will increase your droop. CA angle is only part of the equation.
6. longer droop and less angle
7. No, but you can out-board and then a LA setup would have more available droop than a SA, and it wont pull your axle back as far when at full droop.
8. Ignorance

I would like to see your shortened short arm rig do this, Imped
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #39
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This is mine with a Rubicon express 5.5 LA lift. This is not a cheap lift and is very heavy duty. I love my LA. I have never gotten the arms hung up and have been down alot of trails such as Coyote and Dusey Ershiem.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:29 PM   #40
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CMA, sure do know a lot about long arms and yet your own rig only has a 2" BB lift with a 1.25"
BL.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:54 PM   #41
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Ok. Lets not let this get to be a pissing match. And as far as I'm concerned, RTI ramps make for cool pictures but I've never seen one on a trial anywhere. Lets see trail pics and keep the info to technical instead of bashing each other.

Beside that, lets talk about rear steer a bit. Imped, is there any noticeable rear steer in your set up? How did you avoid it if there isn't any?
Is there any rear steer from y'all's LA kits?
I'm leaning to the shorter style arms right now as a future mod, just wanting to get some advice from real world experience.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:05 PM   #42
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CMA, sure do know a lot about long arms and yet your own rig only has a 2" BB lift with a 1.25"
BL.

Yes my rig is on a 2bb and 1.25bl, the reason is Im on a college student budget. If it wasnt for that, Id have a built rig on LA's and 1tons. Im also runnin RC x-flex short arms up front and the joints on them are the same as currie's, they just dont cost an arm and a leg. Ive done my research and have witnessed the pros and cons of both LA's and SA's.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:07 PM   #43
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I will say this about the LA kit.....it takes some time to get used to. 1st time I passed a semi at 70mph on the freeway I thought he would blow me off the road.
I also haven't had any problems with rear steer, but it is whippy as hell. Probly need new shocks.
Our trails here are very rocky here. I have noticed that the LA's seem to have an easier time than the SA's. Now that may also be due to many other factors too, but that is what I have observed.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:13 PM   #44
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Yes my rig is on a 2bb and 1.25bl, the reason is Im on a college student budget. If it wasnt for that, Id have a built rig on LA's and 1tons. Im also runnin RC x-flex short arms up front and the joints on them are the same as currie's, they just dont cost an arm and a leg. Ive done my research and have witnessed the pros and cons of both LA's and SA's.
College student here too, so I know the whole budget thing and over a half of year of saving and selling old parts I was able to get my GenRight 3/4 link. And if the RC joints are the same as JJ's then why don't people use them instead of buying JJ's?
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:22 PM   #45
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College student here too, so I know the whole budget thing and over a half of year of saving and selling old parts I was able to get my GenRight 3/4 link.
Read.... He wants to build his own LA set-up, He isn't going to buy one. Being in college he probably doesn't have the time to build it right now, I know for sure I don't.

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And if the RC joints are the same as JJ's then why don't people use them instead of buying JJ's?
Because people don't look into things, they just believe everything they read on forums.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:28 PM   #46
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I also haven't had any problems with rear steer, but it is whippy as hell.
How is your rear end set up? Single or double triangulated? 4 link I'm assuming?
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:31 PM   #47
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Read.... He wants to build his own LA set-up, He isn't going to buy one. Being in college he probably doesn't have the time to build it right now, I know for sure I don't.

Because people don't look into things, they just believe everything they read on forums.
Between college and building a CJ5 on 1tons for a friend I dont have the time or money.

X2 people dont want to do the research, they'd rather do what everyone else does.
I like to go against the grain instead of falling inline with everyone else.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:34 PM   #48
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Read.... He wants to build his own LA set-up, He isn't going to buy one. Being in college he probably doesn't have the time to build it right now, I know for sure I don't.

Because people don't look into things, they just believe everything they read on forums.
I'm a full time student too, I bought GenRight front/rear builder kit and made my own setup. GenRight isn't like others who are off the shelf and slap on your jeep companies.

So you would rather run RC joints and not JJ's? I would run neither, and go with MC joints.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:34 PM   #49
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1. I see that you are as ignorant as Imped when it come to arm length.
2. I said high clearance LA, which means not the cheap off the shelf bolt-ons
3. And this adds to your argument how?

1. I have yet to see a rig with a true high clearance LA setup (mounts above the frame rail) get hung up on the mounts or arms. Maybe you dont know how to properly set one up, have you thought about that.
2. You dont know me, if you did you'd know I would not go get a off the shelf bolt-on LA, I wouldnt be happy with it unless I made it, and made it to perfectly meet my needs. (true double triangulated 4link front and rear w/ full hydro)
3. You may not have noticed but I don't drink the "KoolAid" B.S. that you, Jerry, and UnlimitedLJ try to serve to the newbs.
4. Still not High clearance, and I know a guy who I have seen hit his LCA frame mounts and get hung up.
5. You still wont have the available droop that a LA setup would give you, the longer arms along with decreased angle will increase your droop. CA angle is only part of the equation.
6. longer droop and less angle
7. No, but you can out-board and then a LA setup would have more available droop than a SA, and it wont pull your axle back as far when at full droop.
8. Ignorance

I would like to see your shortened short arm rig do this, Imped
great post. I laughed at the KoolAid comment. People think that because they heard something 100x on a forum that its always true.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:40 PM   #50
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I'm a full time student too, I bought GenRight front/rear builder kit and made my own setup.

So you would rather run RC joints and not JJ's?
Good for you but as I said in my last post, im building a cj5 on tons for my friend and I dont have the time or money. Also no one sells a builder kit for what Im planning on doing.

Yes Id rather run the RC version of JJ, they are the same thing with the same amount of movement and their cheaper and easier to rebuild/replace.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:43 PM   #51
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How is your rear end set up? Single or double triangulated? 4 link I'm assuming?
you are correct
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:50 PM   #52
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I'm a full time student too, I bought GenRight front/rear builder kit and made my own setup.

So you would rather run RC joints and not JJ's? I would run neither, and go with MC joints.
Cool, You bought it after saving for a year and half while he can wheel with it now .A BB and BL is a lot cheaper, quicker, and also easier to reverse when he has the money to build everything on his own.

I'm a leaf spring guy so I don't know much about JJ and RC joints. But if I did the research I would probably find the same info he did. People just see what "certain" others post on the forums and believe every word they say....
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:56 PM   #53
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you are correct
So a 4 link... Double or Single triangulated?
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:57 PM   #54
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Cool, You bought it after saving for a year and half while he can wheel with it now .A BB and BL is a lot cheaper, quicker, and also easier to reverse when he has the money to build everything on his own.

I'm a leaf spring guy so I don't know much about JJ and RC joints. But if I did the research I would probably find the same info he did. People just see what "certain" people post on the forums and believe every word they say....
So, what the hell do you leaf spring guys argue about?
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:59 PM   #55
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Probably shackles and carb vs injection.


Guys I don't thing he was trying to be rude when he said about his genright stuff. Just he knows how it is.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:01 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by s14sh3r View Post
So, what the hell do you leaf spring guys argue about?
Spring over or spring under. That's about it.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:02 PM   #57
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Cool, You bought it after saving for a year and half while he can wheel with it now .A BB and BL is a lot cheaper, quicker, and also easier to reverse when he has the money to build everything on his own.

I'm a leaf spring guy so I don't know much about JJ and RC joints. But if I did the research I would probably find the same info he did. People just see what "certain" people post on the forums and believe every word they say....
I was just pointing out that the whole I'm a college student thing isn't always an excuse. I was still able to wheel too when saving.

I just don't see the logic in buying a lift just for now and replacing it with a new lift. Why not just save your money and not waste it on a BB/BL and use that money towards getting parts for the setup you want?
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:07 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by EMTJEEP View Post
I was just pointing out that the whole I'm a college student thing isn't always an excuse. I was still able to wheel too when saving.

I just don't see the logic in buying a lift just for now and replacing it with a new lift. Why not just save your money and not waste it on a BB/BL and use that money towards getting parts for the setup you want?
You try building a CJ5 for a friend while going to college and see how much time you have left over.

Because I only spent $50 in my bb, which I can re-sell it for or atleast close to. The BL and MML will make it so I can do a belly up when the time comes and the reason I have aftermarket CA's is cause a drunk driver hit me head on and bent my stockers, I have motives behind my madness and Im slowly working towards my goal.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:25 PM   #59
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You try building a CJ5 for a friend while going to college and see how much time you have left over.

Because I only spent $50 in my bb, which I can re-sell it for or atleast close to. The BL and MML will make it so I can do a belly up when the time comes and the reason I have aftermarket CA's is cause a drunk driver hit me head on and bent my stockers, I have motives behind my madness and Im slowly working towards my goal.
I have a list of projects I can name that I did/still doing while going to college and working on my own jeep. But I'm not going to start another flaming match on a thread that is already a very controversial topic.

I never done a BB so I don't know the prices so you got me there. And I know what the BL/MML do, but thanks for the info, maybe that could help someone else out.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:34 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by EMTJEEP View Post
I was just pointing out that the whole I'm a college student thing isn't always an excuse. I was still able to wheel too when saving.

I just don't see the logic in buying a lift just for now and replacing it with a new lift. Why not just save your money and not waste it on a BB/BL and use that money towards getting parts for the setup you want?
It makes sense if you are going to have to take your jeep off the road for a few weeks and save up for awhile to do the more expensive lift. BB and BL is cheap and allows you to run bigger tires while you save up and get all the necessary materials. I know with my YJ i'm going the cheap route for now and just highlining and putting 33s on until I can afford to do everything I want which wont be until I graduate and have a steady income.

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