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Old 07-20-2009, 01:16 PM   #1
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Need peoples Feedback... DW thread

Whats up forum? I am just looking for people to throw ideas my way so I can figure out this death wobble.

It started out a little while ago. On the highway at high speeds during right turns I would get a decent but controllable shimmy in the steering wheel. As soon as the wheel returned to center it would stop shimmying. I got an alignment figuring that's what it was, but it changed nothing even though the toe was out.

Fast forward to yesterday, driving home from RC after beating on it severely with the forum members for two days. I have full blown death wobble. It occurs at speeds above 35 mph after hitting a bump or while trying to turn right. The steering wheel shakes when turning left, but doesn't end up into a full death wobble. There are sometimes that I can feel the DW starting, and I can swerve and it stops.

I am going to do an alignment tonight and put my 31 inch tires back on that I know are balanced untill I get the ceramic beads to balance the 35's out. Everything is tight, but I still need to check the upper control arms and ball joints. Anything else I need to check?

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Old 07-20-2009, 07:48 PM   #2
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My first set of 35" tires were made by Dick Cepek. When they started to wear, I started to get real bad DW. I looked everywhere, tightened everything I could think of, and replaced a few things. Nothing helped. Then I went to a set of 35" BFG mud terains. It all went away. The whole time it was the tires. If all else fails, try replacing the tires.

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Old 07-20-2009, 08:04 PM   #3
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Did you check out the DW FAQs in the Sticky area at the top of this page?
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:28 AM   #4
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My first set of 35" tires were made by Dick Cepek. When they started to wear, I started to get real bad DW. I looked everywhere, tightened everything I could think of, and replaced a few things. Nothing helped. Then I went to a set of 35" BFG mud terains. It all went away. The whole time it was the tires. If all else fails, try replacing the tires.
I have 35's BFG mud terrains. I am sure they are out of balance which is why I switched to my old Mud Rovers that are 31's and I am sure are balanced.

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Did you check out the DW FAQs in the Sticky area at the top of this page?
Yes, this is the problem that I had PM'd you about that you said you weren't sure. I am just looking for suggestions no matter how off the wall.

So far I have done the alignment per Jerry's instructions. I measured 57 15/16 in the front of the bar and 58 1/16 in the rear. While doing the alignment, I did notice that the castle nuts on the tie rods on both ends took about two full turns to tighten them up. There is also a tiny bit of play on the one threaded end of the tie rod almost like it is to short.

Ball joints and upper control arm mounts are good. Track bar is tight. I was underneath while someone was turning the steering wheel back and forth also.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:30 AM   #5
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Had the same problem when I went to 32" tires, installed a heavy duty steering stabilizer and all is fine now.......
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:32 AM   #6
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Had the same problem when I went to 32" tires, installed a heavy duty steering stabilizer and all is fine now.......
From what I have been told, a steering stabilizer will not fix death wobble just mask it, but I do know that I am sure the stabilizer is shot now after getting death wobble.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:38 AM   #7
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Switch out your front right tire and wheel with a rear one and see if that helps. Could be a bent rim perhaps.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:17 AM   #8
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Had the same problem when I went to 32" tires, installed a heavy duty steering stabilizer and all is fine now.......
Your new heavy duty steering stabilzer didn't cure the real underlying issue, it is only suppressing the symptoms until it too gets tired which will allow the DW to return. Steering stabilzers are never the cure for Death Wobble. Never, not ever!
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:05 AM   #9
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Your new heavy duty steering stabilzer didn't cure the real underlying issue, it is only suppressing the symptoms until it too gets tired which will allow the DW to return. Steering stabilzers are never the cure for Death Wobble. Never, not ever!
"If all else fails, you need to retune the system. Start with a new
stabilizer if it is old or go to poly CA bushings."

The last thing said in the link provided in the death wobble sticky. As said by Tom "Old Man" Houston. However it does say if all else fails.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:11 PM   #10
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I'm surprised nobody jumped on what you said:
"""""I did notice that the castle nuts on the tie rods on both ends took about two full turns to tighten them up. There is also a tiny bit of play on the one threaded end of the tie rod almost like it is to short."""""


Those Castle nuts have to be tight! Sounds like the threads are stripping out - even with the cotter pins in place. You tightened them, but they'll pull out again.

You have a very dangerous situation there. If one comes loose totally, you will lose control!

Unless some yo yo never tightened them up in the first place, the only way they can get loose is the threads are stripping - the nuts are pulling up. Both the tie rod ends and the castle nuts need to be replaced.

DW is generally because something is loose and allowed to shift.
He He - if your nuts are loose ---?

And - check the Track Bar ends for looseness too.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:12 PM   #11
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Don't forget to check the castle nuts as well on the Ball Joints. I had a friend that didn't tighten there's all the way down and the next day reall bad shake/wobble since the knuckles were loose.

Check the TRE's as well on the steering linkage to make sure none are worn or bad.

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Old 07-21-2009, 12:31 PM   #12
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I've seen quite a few of those castle nuts pull loose. Most of the ones around are cheapies - not hardened. The threads on the nut start to pull, then that ruins the harder threads on the stud.
When that happens, both need to be replaced.

It's a good idea to use Grade 8 Castle nuts - you have to get them from a nut/bolt specialty house - even they may have to order them.
But it's well worth the added wait and expense.

When installing - hold the stud from turning with a hardened awl - get them tight - and use Lock-Tite.
Don't forget a "quality" Cotter pin - Chinese Cotter pins or nails will sheer too easy.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:51 PM   #13
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Wonder how many folks with original-size tires/rims ever experience DW?

Just reading about it scares he crap outta me, since I'm going to pulling my TJ behind my TC (truck camper). If it starts the dance, I prolly won't know about it 'til I see the Jeep passing me or hear the other folks a-honkin'.

Suppose that's why I see most TCs pulling their climbers on a trailer?
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:45 PM   #14
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DW is more of an issue with larger tires but if things are bad enough, it can happen with OE size tires too. Most DW cases can be prevented by some very basic rules to follow... keep your tires well balanced, make sure no wheels are bent, that your toe-in is within spec, and that you keep the bolts in the front end tightened to spec, especially the bolt that holds the passenger-side of the trackbar to the axle.

DW isn't confined to Jeeps, it's a problem with trucks with similar front-end suspensions like is common with Fords, Chevys, Dodges, etc.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
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I'm surprised nobody jumped on what you said:
"""""I did notice that the castle nuts on the tie rods on both ends took about two full turns to tighten them up. There is also a tiny bit of play on the one threaded end of the tie rod almost like it is to short."""""


Those Castle nuts have to be tight! Sounds like the threads are stripping out - even with the cotter pins in place. You tightened them, but they'll pull out again.

You have a very dangerous situation there. If one comes loose totally, you will lose control!

Unless some yo yo never tightened them up in the first place, the only way they can get loose is the threads are stripping - the nuts are pulling up. Both the tie rod ends and the castle nuts need to be replaced.

DW is generally because something is loose and allowed to shift.
He He - if your nuts are loose ---?

And - check the Track Bar ends for looseness too.
One has come loose on me before. It was the end attached to the wheel, so I still had steering in the other wheel. That yo-yo would have been me, and I am pretty sure I would have tightened it up all the way when I replaced it after it fell out that time. What are good quality tie rod ends? These ones were all from NAPA.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:01 PM   #16
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Wonder how many folks with original-size tires/rims ever experience DW?

Just reading about it scares he crap outta me, since I'm going to pulling my TJ behind my TC (truck camper). If it starts the dance, I prolly won't know about it 'til I see the Jeep passing me or hear the other folks a-honkin'.

Suppose that's why I see most TCs pulling their climbers on a trailer?
I know BarrieinMaine has been having trouble with his stock Unlimited. I believe he chased it down to the wheels being balanced though.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:16 PM   #17
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There are lots of causes of DW - whether or not yours will stop DWing or not is irrelevant at this time. When those Castle nuts come loose, the TRE end can pull out, and then "the big accident."
You need to start there. Hopefully it'll cure the DW too.

It's difficult to get the nuts tight enough. The stud tends to spin as you torque it down, you think you are getting it tight but aren't.

If it's left loose, even a tiny bit, then the nut's threads move up and down, wearing, eventually jumping a thread. Once a thread is jumped, it's easy to wear. Then it jumps several threads, finally breaking the cotter pin, then coming all the way off. That's why a careful periodic inspection is so important.

Unfortunately there isn't a better way, not yet anyway.

A trick I haven't tried yet - when tightening it, the stud tries to turn. I've heard that putting a small dab of rubbing compound on the TRE stud's taper helps hold it from turning. The tiny grit in the rubbing compound galls onto the steel of the taper and the tapered hole, securing it. Sounds like it may help.

Rubbing compound has it's uses beyond polishing stuff. Good to put on a stuck Torx head, even a Phillips head, etc..
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:04 PM   #18
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Update:

Did a little more work to the jeep today. Cleaned the mud out from the rear brakes and changed the diff fluids. Took it for a ride and still death wobble. Came back and tie rod end was loose again. Maybe time to upgrade. Any ideas, hopefully cheap. I think I heard something about big dog??

The track bar bolt was also slightly loose on the frame end tightened that down. Took it for a drive and it rode a little better, but still got death wobble, but it seemed like the jeep was trying to fight it. Trackbar bolt loose again after test drive on frame end. Can I order a new heim joint from skyjacker and drill out the bolt hole on the frame end for a bigger bolt?
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:24 PM   #19
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I know BarrieinMaine has been having trouble with his stock Unlimited. I believe he chased it down to the wheels being balanced though.

True, I found a tire store today that believes as I do, that good enough tire balance is not good enough on a Wrangler It has to be perfect.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:04 AM   #20
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Any comments on my update?
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:26 AM   #21
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So what do you think is causing the tie rod ends to keep getting loose?

Gremlins?
Act of God?
The neighbors?
Stripped threads?
"They do that all on their own"?

How long do you think you have until it comes loose completely and hurts or kills you? Worse yet, kills someone else.

It's not like a rip in the seats that can be ignored.
Wishful thinking won't cure it.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:34 AM   #22
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Umm, damn man. I was asking for ideas on an upgrade cause you were right. Try reading the entire post next time.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:05 AM   #23
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SB Somebody on the forum (vendor) was posting up a great deal on steering systems with the tie-rods. Meant for bigger tires and the such. I think it was 399 at the time.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:08 AM   #24
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Damn, there goes my college book money. Any idea on the drilling out the frame end of the track bar? I don't know if that will work because of the heim joint on the skyjacker bar.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:43 PM   #25
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You don't need to "upgrade" to larger - the larger tie rods and such still use the same smallish tie rod ends - same problem. Even the Currie! They all have the problem with the Castellated nut stripping out. They all come with soft Castle nuts, junk!

Use Grade 8 Castellated nuts!

Just replace the tie rod ends you have on it now. The cost isn't much. If I remember right, $15 each? Much less than $300 anyway.

If you want to go heavier for off roading and can afford it, then consider going heavy. The heavier ones help prevent the rod from bending, but the ends still have the same problem.

The Skyjacker uses Hiems on the trackbar? Remove the bolt - check the Hiem joint itself, and make sure the bolt has very little clearance through the sleeve. The s;leeve is hardened, it probably isn't worn.
Most likely you'll find the holes in the bracket on the axle are warbled out, and the bolt is worn some. The bolt will fit loose in the holes.

It's possible to drill the bracket and use a new bigger bolt, but that new bolt won't fit the Hiem. Drilling the sleeve in the Hiem would be very difficult.

Probably the best way is to get a new bolt (dealer has them $8?,) then drill a hole in a small hunk of 1/4 or 3/16 plate - the hole should be a tight fit for the bolt.
Then weld that plate on top of the bracket's hole, lining up the new hole with the old ones. That essentially makes a new hole for the bolt.
Careful not to let it interfere with the tie rod movement - it swings by close.

It requires drilling and welding, but it'll restore that end to tight. That's how I've restored several of them.

I'm just trying to get you to make the repairs before you drive it and take the risk.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:24 AM   #26
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Thanks rrich. I didn't get a chance to work on it last night. I did notice yesterday that I forgot to mention whenever I turn left the wheels automatically turn whenever I turn right the body of the jeep moves an inch or so the the jeep moves. I couldn't find anything moving while I was underneath it though.

I am not currently driving it right now, I don't know why I would when the death wobble is this bad.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:01 PM   #27
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Update: I fixed the track bar and drove it for a little bit seems a bit better. Still not confident in driving it daily yet. I was underneath the back of it and noticed the Tom Woods driveshaft has about a millimeter of play in the u-joint. Is this normal?

I also noticed that the rear control arm on the driver side is loose. I didn't get to tighten it yet on account of the rain, but I am not sure this would cause DW in the front. Plans for tomorrow are to do the alignment again and tighten the rear control arm. I am also thinking of getting the Dynabeads cause it can't hurt. Any comments?
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:13 PM   #28
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The u-joint shouldn't move at all, perhaps the needle bearings under one or more of the caps have given up the ghost. I agree with you that the loose rear control arm is probably not related to your DW.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:28 PM   #29
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Im should have been more specific. The caps moves back and forth by about a millimeter inside the dana 44 yoke. I am not sure if that is related to what you said Jerry. Is that something that would be covered under warranty by Tom Woods. I just installed it in April.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:40 PM   #30
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The u-joint bearing caps and thus the entire u-joint can move inside the yoke? So the entire u-joint can be moved around slightly inside the yoke?

If so, there should be zero movement of the u-joint where it is held in the yoke by the u-joint straps. Something isn't right, perhaps the u-joint was not properly seated in the yoke so it was centered between the two small tabs in the yoke that prevent the u-joint from moving side-to-side. Or perhaps the straps weren't tightened properly, it's hard to say.

I'd sure figure out what's allowing the u-joint to move in the yoke, it should be solid with no movement whatsoever other than the u-joint's normal rotational abilities.

So it doesn't sound like a u-joint issue, my first guess is the u-joint was not properly position into the yoke. It happened to me once when I didn't get my front driveshaft's u-joint properly centered properly into the yoke which caused it to be off-centere which caused a pretty good front driveshaft vibration.

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