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Old 01-11-2017, 09:08 AM
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Stalled. Cranks, no start, no CEL

2002 Manual 4.0 120k miles
On my way to work today, the TJ stalled while I was at a red light (in neutral). Tried to start it again, it cranked and won't turn over. No check engine light, 3/4 tank of gas. I tried giving it gas, but still no start.
$112 tow later, it is sitting in my driveway.

I know a lot about how everything works, but I don't know where to start diagnosis. Here's a list of things floating around in my head.

MAP sensor
Idle air controller
Throttle position sensor
Crankshaft position sensor
Coil rail
Clean throttle body
Fuel pump

Obviously, I don't want to just throw parts at it. Anyone have a good idea of a place to start and how to test the various sensors? Fuel pump would be my last suspicion because everyone always replaces it and it rarely fixes the problem.

Battery was replaced less than a year ago, and it cranks fine. Tested 12.6 Volts with a multi meter. Just in case, I have it hooked up to a trickle charger.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:26 AM   #2
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Do your gauges come alive when the key is in the RUN position?
Can you hear the fuel pump cycle on and off when RUN is selected?

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Old 01-11-2017, 11:10 AM   #3
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Start by checking for spark. Did the check engine light come on? If it just all of a sudden quit and won't start. It sounds very much like the crank position sensor.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
Do your gauges come alive when the key is in the RUN position?
Can you hear the fuel pump cycle on and off when RUN is selected?
Yes. But it does sound different. The best way I can describe it is like an old school "awooga" horn. Makes me suspicious about the fuel pump. I'm picking up a fuel pump test kit from auto zone on my way home from work. Will post with results.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CzerOne View Post
Start by checking for spark. Did the check engine light come on? If it just all of a sudden quit and won't start. It sounds very much like the crank position sensor.
That was my guess, too. But every time I've seen a CPS go out, it has thrown a code or 4. (misfires, cps).

If the fuel pump tests ok, I will check for spark.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:37 PM
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Update. Not getting fuel pressure. Pressed in the valve on the fuel rail with a screwdriver and nothing came out. Even after priming the pump several times.

Fuel pump replacement time
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:42 PM   #7
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kdilly, I had the exact same thing happen with my '01 (10:30 pm on a freeway off-ramp!) and have been running things down for several months as I have free time. Replaced CPS because everyone pointed to it as a common culprit--but that wasn't it. Before I buy a new fuel pump I'm going to reconnect a fuel return line I found loose under the Jeep (see my very recent thread with picture) and some electrical tests this weekend.

I'd also recommend looking for wires eaten by rats/mice if you live in the country like I do.

If you have a multimeter you can check the CPS pretty easily.

Maybe spray some fuel directly into the carb (throttle body) to see if she'll fire up--if so it's not the CPS. Mine fires up in that instance.

I'll keep you posted.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:54 PM   #8
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Before I buy a new fuel pump I'm going to reconnect a fuel return line I found loose under the Jeep (see my very recent thread with picture) and some electrical tests this weekend.
No fuel return line on a TJ. Perhaps an evap line, which is not likely to cause a no-start condition.
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:32 AM   #9
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kdilly, I had the exact same thing happen with my '01 (10:30 pm on a freeway off-ramp!) and have been running things down for several months as I have free time. Replaced CPS because everyone pointed to it as a common culprit--but that wasn't it. Before I buy a new fuel pump I'm going to reconnect a fuel return line I found loose under the Jeep (see my very recent thread with picture) and some electrical tests this weekend.

I'd also recommend looking for wires eaten by rats/mice if you live in the country like I do.

If you have a multimeter you can check the CPS pretty easily.

Maybe spray some fuel directly into the carb (throttle body) to see if she'll fire up--if so it's not the CPS. Mine fires up in that instance.

I'll keep you posted.
That line was already identified for you as the evap line off the rollover valves. Not fuel return (we don't have return lines)
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:19 AM   #10
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Check the fuel pressure with a gauge. It should be around 49psi(+/-2). With no CEL, a failing fuel pump/regulator assembly would be my guess.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
No fuel return line on a TJ. Perhaps an evap line, which is not likely to cause a no-start condition.
Will plug it back in then and see what happens. Thanks to all...
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Old 01-13-2017, 03:33 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by kdilly View Post
2002 Manual 4.0 120k miles
On my way to work today, the TJ stalled while I was at a red light (in neutral). Tried to start it again, it cranked and won't turn over. No check engine light, 3/4 tank of gas. I tried giving it gas, but still no start.
$112 tow later, it is sitting in my driveway.

I know a lot about how everything works, but I don't know where to start diagnosis. Here's a list of things floating around in my head.

MAP sensor
Idle air controller
Throttle position sensor
Crankshaft position sensor
Coil rail
Clean throttle body
Fuel pump

Obviously, I don't want to just throw parts at it. Anyone have a good idea of a place to start and how to test the various sensors? Fuel pump would be my last suspicion because everyone always replaces it and it rarely fixes the problem.

Battery was replaced less than a year ago, and it cranks fine. Tested 12.6 Volts with a multi meter. Just in case, I have it hooked up to a trickle charger.
I have a similar issue with a '97 4.0 with 190K in a GC, but it is cold related. Started and ran great all summer, but at +30 deg. or less, it may or may not start. If it starts, it may or may not stay running. The kicker here is even with the block heater plugged in for days, results are inconsistent. If parked in a heated garage, it fires up every time. Also, if not garaged, it will just shut off while driving as if you turned the key with the motor at full operating temperature. No stumble, no sputter, no CEL.

No issues with battery, charging or cranking. I found the distributor cap and coil to be bad and replaced them. Ignition system all tests out good. All sensor connections look good. Fuel tank is full.

I was thinking fuel starvation, but I can hear the pump running and power does not taper off, it just ends. Again, no CEL. The fuel lines and connections are free of kinks, leaks, etc.

So here's my theory: Cold fuel and a weak pump. I have many electric power tools that still work, but don't turn like they used to. Especially in the cold.

I haven't had a chance to test this idea yet. The Jeep is in the garage and no one wants to pull it outside and work on it in negative temperatures.

What do you guys think?
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Old 01-13-2017, 07:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by KLE061 View Post
I have a similar issue with a '97 4.0 with 190K in a GC, but it is cold related. Started and ran great all summer, but at +30 deg. or less, it may or may not start. If it starts, it may or may not stay running. The kicker here is even with the block heater plugged in for days, results are inconsistent. If parked in a heated garage, it fires up every time. Also, if not garaged, it will just shut off while driving as if you turned the key with the motor at full operating temperature. No stumble, no sputter, no CEL.

No issues with battery, charging or cranking. I found the distributor cap and coil to be bad and replaced them. Ignition system all tests out good. All sensor connections look good. Fuel tank is full.

I was thinking fuel starvation, but I can hear the pump running and power does not taper off, it just ends. Again, no CEL. The fuel lines and connections are free of kinks, leaks, etc.

So here's my theory: Cold fuel and a weak pump. I have many electric power tools that still work, but don't turn like they used to. Especially in the cold.

I haven't had a chance to test this idea yet. The Jeep is in the garage and no one wants to pull it outside and work on it in negative temperatures.

What do you guys think?
Sounds like exactly what I posted about that is happening to me here: winter and cold weather problems

I tested my fuel pressure and I had 10psi on first bump of the key...0psi on cold mornings but it would fire and raise to 5psi then slowly start climbing

I have a bosch pump being shipped from rock auto myself and will install it when I get it- lazy pump. One thing that did help just a touch was I put something in my gas from STP to get rid of any moisture ... the Jeep still bucks and stalls in the morning but it doesn't quite always stall now...just buying time for the new pump to get here
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:28 PM   #14
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Sounds like exactly what I posted about that is happening to me here: winter and cold weather problems

I tested my fuel pressure and I had 10psi on first bump of the key...0psi on cold mornings but it would fire and raise to 5psi then slowly start climbing

I have a bosch pump being shipped from rock auto myself and will install it when I get it- lazy pump. One thing that did help just a touch was I put something in my gas from STP to get rid of any moisture ... the Jeep still bucks and stalls in the morning but it doesn't quite always stall now...just buying time for the new pump to get here
Yeah it does sound similar. I've been racking my brain on this, but most of my mechanical experience is on '79 and older rigs and I just purchased this one last summer. The previous owner told me he had problems in the cold he couldn't figure out. If it was carbureted with no computer I'd have fixed it by now!

I've been back and forth between fuel, electrical or controls. My first thought was fuel, but the engine never stuttered on startup, idling or driving. It simply ran as designed or not at all. The transmission symptom you describe or the bucking has not occurred. The idle does get very low at times yet is still smooth.

I though maybe water/ice in the fuel and tried Seafoam. It's only been driven about 10 miles since so I can't say whether or not it will work.

Two oddities:
1) 10-15 degrees out. Plugged in. Fired right up. Idled for 20-30 minutes. Revved & idled fine. Died once, but fired right up again. Turned it off. About 6 hours later, fired up and drove a couple hundred yards to a neighbors house. Died while in park. Did not restart. About 30-50 minutes later with TJ and straps ready to drag it home, it fired right up and was driven home under its own power.

2) While repeatedly attempting to start on a sub-zero morning (plugged in), it finally kicked and ramped up to 2000 RPM. I waited for it to come down on it's own. After maybe 20 seconds or so it did. To zero. It didn't start until the next day.

It's in the garage now. I'm going to roll it out and let it freeze. The next attempt will be with a fuel pressure gauge.

Off the subject, not for trouble shooting but to get to know a new vehicle, I did a compression check. I believe the specs are 120-150 PSI with a 30 PSI variance. My readings averaged 170 PSI with a 7 PSI variance. 190K+ miles and sometimes sounds like a VW diesel at idle. Heads/valve train?
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:03 PM   #15
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sounds almost exactly like mine - mine does not always have the transmission issue. Mine also never had and still doesn't have an issue firing up first thing in the morning even on almost 0psi of fuel at the rail

Check your fuel pressure when it is cold out at first start in the morning after it has sat over night- that is when you will see a difference in the pressure for sure if the pump is an issue...

not sure on your off topic question- broken exhaust manifold? sounds are very subjective and hard to diagnose over the internet - try uploading a youtube video?
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Old 02-27-2017, 08:18 AM
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FIXED. Fuel pump replaced and it started up first try.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:04 PM   #17
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Just got back under the hood. I now have 2 '97 4.0's with the same cold temp operating issue. Fuel pressure is about 45 psi at the rail on both rigs at first bump of the key and remains there through starting/running. Ambient air temp just above zero. Guessing that's not it.

It sounds like everyone has similar symptoms but different repairs to make. Currently I am looking at the IAT and the ECT. They test within parameters at 40-70 deg. A little low (resistance) at operating temp. Cold testing seems to align with the operational issues. Both IAT and ECT use the same chart (Haynes) with 85,850-108,390 ohms at -4 deg. I bought 2 new IATs and 2 new ECTs, pulled all 4 old sensors, and put them in my freezer which runs about -9. All 8 average about 50-65K ohms. So, at winter temperatures, does the computer think it's 10-20 degrees warmer than it is? Perhaps these sensors are not manufactured where they are accurate at the low end of the scale.

Still learning about computers so I'm not even sure if this affects starting.

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