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Old 06-24-2013, 01:46 PM   #31
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The amount of rubber you shed is the same regardless. And YES, an LSD means your rear tires are going to wear more evenly from L to R because the of the nature of torque delivery from the LSD. They're either both slipping or both gripping. You don't have that with an open diff.

In a staggered setup, tires are never rotated, and the world does not end. If you want to make them even between F&R every oil change, go for it, but one f/r swap at the right time gets both sets to the wear bars at the same time.
One of the many freedoms we share here in the United States of America is the right to our own opinion, I base my opinion of Decades in the Automotive Industry.

You to are allowed your own opinion no matter how flawed and groundless your theory may be!

Good example of "Staggered Tires" "Directional Tires" and "LSD equipped vehicle" is your Chevrolet Corvette the past ten years....tire life expectancy is 12 to 15 thousand miles. Kinda shits a hole right through your theory dosent it.

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Old 06-24-2013, 01:52 PM   #32
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The amount of rubber you shed is the same regardless. And YES, an LSD means your rear tires are going to wear more evenly from L to R because the of the nature of torque delivery from the LSD. They're either both slipping or both gripping. You don't have that with an open diff.

In a staggered setup, tires are never rotated, and the world does not end. If you want to make them even between F&R every oil change, go for it, but one f/r swap at the right time gets both sets to the wear bars at the same time.
I dunno where you're coming up with this stuff but I sure don't agree with much of anything you're claiming.

For example, torque delivery from an LSD equipped axle is split 50:50 between the left and right sides. What is surprising to those who don't understand how differentials work (the majority of people) is that torque delivery from an 'open' axle is also split precisely 50:50 between the left and right sides. Yes, an open axle always splits the torque 50:50 too. Do a little research on this before you start arguing that I'm wrong on this.

Edit: Or read the short article I wrote years ago on torque which also covers how LSDs work... 4x4 & Torque answers - JeepForum.com

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Old 06-24-2013, 01:59 PM   #33
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One of the many freedoms we share here in the United States of America is the right to our own opinion, I base my opinion of Decades in the Automotive Industry.

You to are allowed your own opinion no matter how flawed and groundless your theory may be!

Good example of "Staggered Tires" "Directional Tires" and "LSD equipped vehicle" is your Chevrolet Corvette the past ten years....tire life expectancy is 12 to 15 thousand miles. Kinda shits a hole right through your theory dosent it.
Having a lead foot and soft compound tires as shitty as the F1 eagles = frequent replacement. PSS are good for 30k+ same conditions. Still don't replace or rotate the front ones at that mileage, so what's your point, that you burn up rears with a 400+ HP sports car? Captain obvious to the rescue...
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:23 PM   #34
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I dunno where you're coming up with this stuff but I sure don't agree. For example, torque delivery from an LSD equipped axle is split 50:50 between the left and right sides. What is surprising to those who don't understand how differentials work (the majority of people) is that torque delivery from an 'open' axle is also split precisely 50:50 between the left and right sides. Yes, an open axle always splits the torque 50:50 too. Do a little research on this before you start arguing that I'm wrong on this.

Edit: Or read the short article I wrote years ago on torque which also covers how LSDs work... 4x4 & Torque answers - JeepForum.com
What?
http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction...ol_Article.pdf


In the case of an eLSD you are correct because it's actually an open diff, but not for a mechanical one, not at all.
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:29 PM   #35
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That article doesn't disagree with what I said earlier, you are just hoping it does.. A torsion style LSD, like the Detroit Truetrac is, still splits the available torque 50:50. It and every other type of LSD simply increases the amount of torque delivered... but it still splits that increased amount of torque 50:50 evenly between the sides. The net result of an LSD is more torque being delivered to the tire with the most traction... but that same increased amount of torque is also being delivered to the tire with the least amount of traction. Both sides are getting an equal share of the additional level of torque the LSD can help generate. More torque, yes, but it is still being split 50:50 to the left/right tires.

This is a subject I have taught, you're grasping at straws here. Read the article I wrote which explains how it works.
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:31 PM   #36
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Having a lead foot and soft compound tires as shitty as the F1 eagles = frequent replacement. PSS are good for 30k+ same conditions. Still don't replace or rotate the front ones at that mileage, so what's your point, that you burn up rears with a 400+ HP sports car? Captain obvious to the rescue...
I can take pictures for you next time I have one in, you can understand pictures correct? Yes the F1's are soft tires thus they show the failure to rotate and wear evenly at a greater rate than a harder tire. Most Corvettes with F1 tires will have the RR worn out and the inner edges of both front tires worn. This is due to the fact that Even with a LSD the RR tire does more work than the LR due to torque loading from the engine.

Next time you drive a vehicle other than a peddle car or tricycle stand on the gas pedal watch the left front raise and the RR lower, you just unequally loaded the tires with or without a LSD. There are many other examples but I just don't want to overload you at this time.
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:45 PM   #37
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That article doesn't disagree with what I said earlier, you are just hoping it does.. A torsion style LSD, like the Detroit Truetrac is, still splits the available torque 50:50. It and every other type of LSD simply increases the amount of torque delivered... but it still splits that increased amount of torque 50:50 evenly between the sides.

This is a subject I have taught, you're grasping at straws here. Read the article I wrote which explains how it works.

"Letting the torque DIFFERENCE between drive axles (T1-T2) be represented by 'Td', it follows that:
T1 = (Trg + Td)/2, and
T2 = (Trg - Td)/2

From this, the maximum RATIO of torque which can be supported between drive axles (i.e., bias ratio) is expressed by the following proportion:

torque bias = T1/T2 : 1"

It's saying exactly the opposite of what you're saying: output torque T1 can differ from T2. Thus it is not "inherently" 50:50.
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:50 PM   #38
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You're misunderstanding it because you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You're just cutting & pasting a small part from that article which you haven't fully grasped yet. When you truly grasp the subject, then you'll understand what I have been trying to explain.

Read my article too, don't be so stubborn as to not read something that for most people, explains something in such a way that it becomes understandable without need for math.
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:58 PM   #39
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Tires are one of the most expensive items we replace on our vehicles I think it's very poor form of you to come on here and attempt to tell people to neglect normal maintenance on such an expensive item due to Your "Theory" for that reason:

Fellow Posters and Readers of this thread.

Please do not adhere to n00g7's "Theory" of non needed tire rotation. Please maintain your tires with proper inflation, rotation and alignment they'll give you better performance and last much longer.

"The preceding was a Public Service Announcement brought to you by the one and only Florida Flash!!! Automotive Technician and Photographer Extraordinaire!"
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:05 PM   #40
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This guy is good^. Told me to get a jack stand under my axle, I went to go grab one, boom, there goes the axle on the ground. Hahahaha.
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:11 PM   #41
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Hello everyone! Newbie here... Is it ever to late to throw in your new spare tire into the rotation?
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:55 PM   #42
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Hello everyone! Newbie here...

Welcome


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Is it ever to late to throw in your new spare tire into the rotation?

Yes. I wouldn't do it if there is a significant difference in the tread depth between the four and the spare. Also, depending on how old the spare is it can begin to chunk if pressed in to regular service. Leave it as an emergency spare. If/When you get new tires, buy five and incorporate the five tire rotation from the start.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:00 PM   #43
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You're misunderstanding it because you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You're just cutting & pasting a small part from that article which you haven't fully grasped yet. When you truly grasp the subject, then you'll understand what I have been trying to explain.

Read my article too, don't be so stubborn as to not read something that for most people, explains something in such a way that it becomes understandable without need for math.
I read it, but it's beside the point.

Take, for example, an open differential, 50:50 split. One tire is spinning with 20 of resistance, an eLSD applies the brake to that side. Say, the resistance it applies is 50. The 50:50 split allows the maximum torque output of the other side to increase to 70 or until it spins. If it doesn't spin, more brake is added until it does. Wheel 1 still sees 20, while wheel 2 progressively sees more until (e.g., at 70) it spins too and you make a nice 11 on the pavement instead of a 1 tire fire, like you would with a purely open differential.

The operation of that brake is moved into the differential housing itself with a mechanical LSD. Either way, the actual output torque delivered by the shaft to the wheels is not 50:50, which is the whole point of the LSD in the first place. Stating that 50% of the input torque to the system is used for each side says nothing to the actual output torque at the wheels from each side of the system due to intentional losses from adding resistance. Hence, the difference in torque. The torque ratio noted above is a result of the maximum amount of friction that can be added to any one side in order to differ torque at the wheels.

Your stance is equivalent to gathering the ingredients for 12 1oz cookies, eating a portion of the dough, then baking 12 3/4oz cookies and claiming you still made 1oz cookies because you used all the ingredients.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:07 PM   #44
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One of the best things about living in America is that we're all free to believe what we want, no matter how those beliefs are formed. If you want to believe that is how a LSD works, you are welcome to that belief. I am done with you on the subject of LSDs, I have now wasted more of my time than was warranted.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:23 PM   #45
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Welcome

Yes. I wouldn't do it if there is a significant difference in the tread depth between the four and the spare. Also, depending on how old the spare is it can begin to chunk if pressed in to regular service. Leave it as an emergency spare. If/When you get new tires, buy five and incorporate the five tire rotation from the start.
Good call on the age of tires... I never thought of that. I just bought the jeep a few weeks ago and it wasn't driven much over the past 5 or 6 years, the tires are still about 80-85% with a brand new spare.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:15 PM   #46
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One of the best things about living in America is that we're all free to believe what we want, no matter how those beliefs are formed. If you want to believe that is how a LSD works, you are welcome to that belief. I am done with you on the subject of LSDs, I have now wasted more of my time than was warranted.

Annnnnd QED. But I agree with the bolded portion. Time to make some money today.


Limited slip differential (LSD) - Quaife
Limited-slip differential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.torsen.com/files/Traction...ol_Article.pdf
Limited Slip Differential - Wikicars
Lockers, Limited Slips and other Differentials Explained
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:25 PM   #47
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X2. They don't look directional to me either so I sent Nitto an email earlier this morning asking if they are directional or not.
Nitto replied, Terra Grapplers aren't directional.

"Dear Jerry Bransford,

Thank you for contacting Nitto Tire.

Regarding your inquiry, all the Nitto Grapplers are non-directional.

For further support, please contact our consumer relations department at your convenience. The number is 888-529-8200 and they are available Mon-Fri, 8:00am to 5:00pm PT.

Thank you,

Nitto Technical Department

Nitto Tire U.S.A
Fueled by Enthusiasts"

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