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Old 08-14-2010, 07:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Re: the wheel bearing grease -
The hydrocarbons in wheel bearing grease can and will dissolve some of the plastic connectors (also made of hydrocarbons) used in the electrical circuits. It works OK, but sometimes if you ever need to disconnect those connectors all you have is a gooey mush with wires. Seen it too many times.

Dielectric grease is made specifically for electrical connections - and isn't expensive. A tube will last you for years.

This is a friendly place - as long as advice brought to the table has merit and isn't destructive.

The Factory Service Manual has fault trees that help step you through the diagnostic process for this kind of problem (not Chiltons or fake ones.) The OP has spent far more than the cost of the manual in parts. On Ebay you can get the FSM on a CD for cheap - $30?
Thanks! ...and, moving on, I have spent more than $30 so far, but not really that much. The plugs, wires, and rotor & cap were already done before this happened, so I put a new CPS, new distributor, and new coil on it. Now the computer I bought online for $250 programmed and shipped for my vin/mileage. Not too bad so far, and all of those things besides the computer could stand replacing..

You are absolutely right that I should buy the FSM. I bought this jeep back in April and just haven't got around to it yet, but I plan to!

Thanks so much for the lively discussion here. I really appreicate everyone's input and advice! This forum has been a great place to find answers!

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Old 08-15-2010, 04:43 AM   #32
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Keep us posted on the results of the ECM replacement, if it cures your ills.

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Old 08-18-2010, 05:41 AM   #33
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Keep us posted on the results of the ECM replacement, if it cures your ills.
Got the new ecm yesterday, 5 minutes later it was in but TJ still won't start. I'm completely out of ideas and can only think it must be something electrical, which I have no idea how to check.

Last call for ideas before I put it in the shop??
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:04 AM   #34
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Now that you've tried throwing parts at it - and it still won't start -

Back to basics -
It needs fuel, spark, and compression to start.

Press the pin on the Schrader valve on the fuel rail - is there fuel there? (Key On.)
No? It may have been about to run out of gas when you parked it. Add a couple of gallons to make sure it's not empty. Not too much though, you may have to drop the tank if the pump's bad.

Does it sound normal when cranking - not way too slow or way too fast?

Pull a plug wire off at the plug - stick a Phillips screwdriver in the wire boot and hold it close to ground while someone cranks it. Is there spark? It should be a crispy thin blue spark. Not red or yellow.

Let us know here - we can step you through to find the problem without throwing more parts at it and without further adoo.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:55 PM   #35
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Now that you've tried throwing parts at it - and it still won't start -

Back to basics -
It needs fuel, spark, and compression to start.
I've verified that it is not getting spark, as I pointed out in previous posts.
Quote:
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Press the pin on the Schrader valve on the fuel rail - is there fuel there? (Key On.)
No? It may have been about to run out of gas when you parked it. Add a couple of gallons to make sure it's not empty. Not too much though, you may have to drop the tank if the pump's bad.
Covered this in previous posts. Pump is working, gas in tank, even put a bit down the intake to try that. Point is, no spark still won't work with more gas.
Quote:
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Does it sound normal when cranking - not way too slow or way too fast?
Sounds completely normal, it just does not start
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Pull a plug wire off at the plug - stick a Phillips screwdriver in the wire boot and hold it close to ground while someone cranks it. Is there spark? It should be a crispy thin blue spark. Not red or yellow.
Done all that, and I verified that there is no spark.
Quote:
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Let us know here - we can step you through to find the problem without throwing more parts at it and without further adoo.
[/QUOTE]
I tested every step of the way and found that "no spark" is the problem. I then verified plugs/wires/cap/rotor were good and plugged in correctly. Still no spark. Then I bought a new coil since that's the next part in line, but when it didn't fix the problem I just returned it. Next I moved to the CPS since that is a typical culprit and I think mine was acting funny before. Still no spark. Next part I looked at was the distributor, which I have no way of testing, so I just replaced it and left it. It was relatively cheap so it's done. As far as I can tell, the next thing that controls the spark is the ECM, so I found one and put it in. The only other thing I can think of is that there is a faulty wire somewhere, but I don't know where to even begin looking for that problem.

I appreciate your help, but I find it a bit condescending when you tell me I'm just throwing parts at it. Nothing I did was out of line, and I didn't start replacing anything until I verified the issue. From there I started testing and replacing parts in order. Perhaps I didn't need a new CPS, but I was going to replace that soon anyhow. Same with the distributor, and I don't know how to test a distributor, so once it's out I'd just as soon put a new one in to be safe. Same with ECM.

Please, share your ideas and solutions, or tell me where else I should check, I would greatly appreciate that.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:49 AM   #36
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Sorry, I didn't mean to be insulting, but you have replaced quite a few parts to no avail.

Next step - check for voltages at the coil. Key On, one side should have a constant 12 volts on it - probably marked + or a red wire.
The other side is switched by the ECM. Put your voltmeter on it - probably a green wire. Crank it - it should show pulsating voltage as you crank.

I'm sure you've inspected the wiring around it for bad connections, or evidence a rat hasn't chewed the wiring. Out here, rats, squirrels, chip monks, rabbits, etc are a big problem. They love insulation.

He He - One got in the house last weekend while we were away. It got in through the window AC. It chewed lots of things in the house, but couldn't get back out. IT CHEWED A HOLE RIGHT THROUGH THE WALL to get out!
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:28 AM   #37
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We had a member here about a month ago that kept cooking his coil. Turns out it was a worn through wire harness at the back of the head above the bell housing.

Check your wire harness from the coil to the ECM.
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
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Sorry, I didn't mean to be insulting, but you have replaced quite a few parts to no avail.

Next step - check for voltages at the coil. Key On, one side should have a constant 12 volts on it - probably marked + or a red wire.
The other side is switched by the ECM. Put your voltmeter on it - probably a green wire. Crank it - it should show pulsating voltage as you crank.

I'm sure you've inspected the wiring around it for bad connections, or evidence a rat hasn't chewed the wiring. Out here, rats, squirrels, chip monks, rabbits, etc are a big problem. They love insulation.

He He - One got in the house last weekend while we were away. It got in through the window AC. It chewed lots of things in the house, but couldn't get back out. IT CHEWED A HOLE RIGHT THROUGH THE WALL to get out!
Thank you, I'll try that tonight. Regarding inspecting for bad connections, I've visually inspected the engine bay, including the ECM, but I will pay more attention to the harnesses connected to the ECM tonight.

Thanks again! I'll keep you updated
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:30 AM   #39
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Quote:
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We had a member here about a month ago that kept cooking his coil. Turns out it was a worn through wire harness at the back of the head above the bell housing.

Check your wire harness from the coil to the ECM.
Thanks, I'll do that tonight as well!!
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Old 08-26-2010, 05:13 PM   #40
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Well it's finally running again. It turns out that the problem was corroded wires connecting to the asd relay. Took a bit to narrow it down, but at least it's fixed now! AND!!! All the new parts make it run stronger than before lol At least they weren't a completely waste of money!

Thanks for everyone's help, I really appreciate it!
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Old 08-27-2010, 12:59 AM   #41
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Note to everyone - When chasing gremlins and you are checking connections and swapping relays and fuses, look for corrosion on the terminals.

If it aint clean and shiny, there is a problem.
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Old 08-27-2010, 05:27 AM   #42
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Note to everyone - When chasing gremlins and you are checking connections and swapping relays and fuses, look for corrosion on the terminals.

If it aint clean and shiny, there is a problem.
So true! The corrosion was under the panel that the relays plug into, so it also was not easily visible.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:56 PM   #43
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testing crank sensor

I have a similar problem, 2.5 1997 cranking but no fire no fuel signal. No tach bounce

How can i test the crank sensor without a scope?

I tried a ohms meter but I could not get anything on it.

Also how about testing or bypassing ASD relay?

Thanks
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:40 PM   #44
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Have you tried all of the suggested items in this particular thread?

Not sure what the specs are on the crank sensor for testing, but it is possible. There should be an Ohm spec, and depending on the style of sensor, you can test output while cranking.

Swapping relays is easier than explaining testing. Look for discoloration and corrosion on the relay terminals and evidently deep inside the slots on the PDC.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:18 PM   #45
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my fuel is fine, I have a noid light at the inj plug and Im getting nothing

The crank sensor
The book says 200 ohms on a and b +- 75 ohms

I tested mine and I get no ohms at all across any lead. Im thinking bad sensor.
The orange wire is input volts i think its C

I think B is ground and A to ECU as pulse

(just guessing)

So that means it must be a normally closed loop to ground and each time a tooth goes by it opens the loop. Right?????


I went to autozone they had 1 from a 95 in stock, they ordered mine and it will be here in the morning. I did test the a and b on their sensor and it did have 200 ohms

The ASD
I cant really figure out its wiring yet but removing the relay one plug is hot all the time and another becomes hot when he key is turned on, that sounds good but IDK

The coil,
The green wire Is 12v with key on and falls back to like 5v then when cranking goes to 12> that sounds right maybe


Trying sensor first then will see I guess.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:27 PM   #46
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sounds like cam or crank sensor the check engine light doesnt always come on for these sensors but run a scanner on it just in case
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Old 08-28-2010, 04:29 AM   #47
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A warm relay is OK, Hot is not so good (hence the looking for discoloration). Relays are cheap, and it is good to have a couple spares on hand (like fuses).

The Coil(s) and injectors are constant powered (12v).

The ASD relay supplies power for the (IIRC) Fuel Pump, coil(s) injectors, and ECM.

ECM controls the Coil(s) and injectors by closing the ground leg at the appropriate time.

No crank signal will mean no injector or coil signal because the ECM is waiting for the signal to fire and to what cylinder.

This info is based on the 03-06, as I don't have a FSM for your year jeep. Should be fairly close though.

Post back once you replace your crank sensor.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:24 AM   #48
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update

Well that didnt do it, more info on jeep.

This a jeep I bought not running. previous owner had it all torn apart and stopped. It had a blown head gasket. I have had the block bored out .010 new pistons and the head redone and the blocked decked. Durring that I have found that the engine is a 1995 and the jeep is a 97. I am wondering if that might be the problem with the flywheel sensor. Looking closely at it the senor is running just behind the teeth. There is at least one notch at that location. I know some systems use a reference of one per revolution to tell the ecu top dead center.

Basically does anyone know if the flywheel sensor runs off the teeth or the area just to the rear, ie reference?

If it should be on the teeth then I will have to modify the sensor or pull the trans out to change thee flywheel.

I will try to post a picture of the sensor hole to give a comparision.

Thanks
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:30 AM   #49
Knows a couple things...

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The CPS has to match the transmission it is mounted to so it is positioned over the flywheel properly. There are several variations of CPS available, especially where the transmission type... auto vs. manual... is concerned.

There are SO MANY things that have to be right for the engine to start that the CPS is just one of them. Another sensor that can cause it not to start is the camshaft position sensor which is inside the distributor housing, under the rotor.
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:57 PM   #50
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I have checked the flywheel at autozone the 95 and 97 are the same part number. I also checked the diff in the 95 to 97 sensor they are the same except diff plug ends. The 97 and 95 have the same trans number. It is getting volts on the orange wire. I cant really tell with my crappy meter but some volts when key on and higher when cranking. So I think thats about eliminated the flywheel sensor. (agree?) I had my meter set on 2.5 dc I should be getting 5v I may try to verify the volts before moving on

I think Jerry might have agood idea, I will check the dist next. I guess

Autozone was good to take back the sensor. They prob didnt have to.

Man I wish I had my scope back I sold.
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Old 08-28-2010, 07:34 PM   #51
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I double checked with another meter and it is .5 to 1 volt to the sensor. It should be 5v I think. I clamped a jumper cable from the battery neg to the block just to make sure grounds were good, no change in reading.

So that means partial break in wire, or ecu problem Right? Those are the only things that could do that right?
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:25 AM   #52
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"""""The crank sensor The book says 200 ohms on a and b +- 75 ohms
I tested mine and I get no ohms at all across any lead. Im thinking bad sensor."""""

Like you said, it should read about 200 Ohms. If it reads infinite - then either the sensor itself has gone south or the connector is defective. They have had lots of trouble with bad connectors - the crimping or soldering is defective. Try pin pricking the wires themselves.

That sensor is simply a wire wrapped around a magnet - no switches, no electronics, not a Hall Effect in it. It just makes a quick pulse as the flywheel notch goes by. No telling what the disconnected wires to the ECM should read.

If you have it out you could touch a hunk of steel to the center then pull it away while you are watching the Ohmmeter. The needle will bounce slightly - if it's OK - but if it's reading infinite there is no continuity, no pulse.


""""that means it must be a normally closed loop to ground and each time a tooth goes by it opens the loop. Right?????"""""

No, it's just a pulse - not unlike the pulse from a distributor's magnetic pick-up. If I remember right, it's a negative going pulse.

The reason it doesn't usually set codes is when it fails the engine immediately stops. The ECM has to see something fail for several revolutions or seconds to set a code.

Of course it has to be very close to where the notch goes by, - that's why there are several types, mostly different mountings - but if the coil is open, nothing will help.

That pulse tells the ECM to make a spark and to inject some fuel. If no pulse, nothing happens.

Autozone's sensors are notorious for being defective, or not lasting long. A Jeep dealer will have much better ones, for not much more if any more, and you get the latest updated ones.

The CPS is a critical sensor!
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:55 AM   #53
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"""""The crank sensor The book says 200 ohms on a and b +- 75 ohms
I tested mine and I get no ohms at all across any lead. Im thinking bad sensor."""""

Like you said, it should read about 200 Ohms. If it reads infinite - then either the sensor itself has gone south or the connector is defective. They have had lots of trouble with bad connectors - the crimping or soldering is defective. Try pin pricking the wires themselves.

That sensor is simply a wire wrapped around a magnet - no switches, no electronics, not a Hall Effect in it. It just makes a quick pulse as the flywheel notch goes by. No telling what the disconnected wires to the ECM should read.

If you have it out you could touch a hunk of steel to the center then pull it away while you are watching the Ohmmeter. The needle will bounce slightly - if it's OK - but if it's reading infinite there is no continuity, no pulse.


""""that means it must be a normally closed loop to ground and each time a tooth goes by it opens the loop. Right?????"""""

No, it's just a pulse - not unlike the pulse from a distributor's magnetic pick-up. If I remember right, it's a negative going pulse.

The reason it doesn't usually set codes is when it fails the engine immediately stops. The ECM has to see something fail for several revolutions or seconds to set a code.

Of course it has to be very close to where the notch goes by, - that's why there are several types, mostly different mountings - but if the coil is open, nothing will help.

That pulse tells the ECM to make a spark and to inject some fuel. If no pulse, nothing happens.

Autozone's sensors are notorious for being defective, or not lasting long. A Jeep dealer will have much better ones, for not much more if any more, and you get the latest updated ones.

The CPS is a critical sensor!
I agree the sensor is critical, Ok I'll do some checks this morning into the wires. And I have the pinn out for the ecu, I could check there also

Just one more thing for more info. I have tried three sensors none of them have created pulse to the injecters. One new one from autozone, the one that was on it when I got it. and one that came with a wiring harness I got from ebay that was said to have been pulled from a running jeep. That is the harness that is on the jeep now.


How about the volts to the sensor being way below 5v?
Any other ideas what to check about that?
(Assuming that it is really low volts, tests this morning might change that I know)

Thanks
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:58 AM   #54
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I doubt you could get any specs on what the voltage to the CPS should be. The only way would be to measure another vehicle. It doesn't need any power to make the pulse.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:02 PM   #55
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I took the ecu to the dealer today. They said they cant test it with it off the vehicle. They also said it has to be programed to my vin and miles or it would not start. I kinda think thats BS (I agree it would be best to have it programed to match , but not start! come on, really!)

Also update I changed the battery just to be sure and I did get 3.5 volts to the sensor. That seems much better than 1/2 volt. It also has 3.5 volts to the dist and the crank sensor.

I guess I need a ecu to test with , R4886886 is the part number, anybody know of one?
Also what about the program the ecu BS or Not BS?

Thanks
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:05 PM   #56
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Never had to do one on a Jeep. All the others I have done needed to be flashed by the dealer for build spec of the vehicle, and those were on 2000 & newer vehicles.

When in doubt, call another dealer and ask.
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:11 PM   #57
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Yes, you cannot just swap ECUs from another Jeep. They have to be programmed for THAT vehicle. Else it starts, then immediately shuts off. I learned the hard way.

Some of the legit sellers on Ebay do it before you get it. All they need is the VIN number to program it. If they don't offer it as a free service when you order it, it's just a used one - possibly even stolen. (Jerry's?)
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Old 09-01-2010, 06:39 AM   #58
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I think im gona give these guys a try http://stores.ebay.com/AUTO-COMPUTER-EXCHANGE
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:25 PM   #59
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Well I need ECU advice. I called the computer exchange people and they were kinda like "what is your part number?" and thats about it! for help from them. LOL

I have found durring the restore that the engine is a 95 2.5 and the jeep is a 97 2.5. It has a used cluster out of a 97.

SO, do I order a ECU for a 95 or a 97 ?
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Old 09-01-2010, 06:04 PM   #60
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Did it run before? If it did, give them the part number of your old one.

Explain what you have to them. They may need the VIN of yours, or possibly the VIN of the one the engine came out of.

You might end up at the dealer where they can program it for what you have if the 95 and 97 are much different.

That's the problem with a hybrid.

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