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Old 02-10-2011, 09:48 PM   #1
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Valve Spring Replacement - Cherry Mechanic!

I am looking to replace my 4.0 6cyl valve springs due to Cylinder 1 misfire issues. This will be a first for me and while I am fairly capable with a wrench I wanted to get some pointers from those of you that have done this. I bought a Haynes manual, but I think the tech who wrote that section was high when he wrote it!!!

Should I use OEM springs and if so, does anyone have the part number? I am assuming I probably should replace the rocker arms and valve umbrella oil seals while I have everything off. Will I be required to do any measurements, meaning will I need to buy more than just a Valve Spring Compressor?

Thanks in advance!!!

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Old 02-11-2011, 10:42 AM   #2
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Crickets chirping..........

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Old 02-11-2011, 12:11 PM   #3
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How do you know thats the problem? One thing is if you do it is make sure the piston is at top dead center or the valve may drop inside the cylinder on top of the piston.
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Old 02-11-2011, 01:38 PM   #4
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shouldnt need to do any measurements. its pretty straight forward. I would stick with an oem spring unless you are upgrading the camshaft. If I were doing it, I would spend a little extra since I'm getting dirty anyhow and put some hardened pushrods and stock length roller rockers on there. Thats just me though, the oem stuff does just fine. Little less friction with the roller rockers. How did you determine that it was your valve spring? If I were you, I would be doing a full tune up first.
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Old 02-11-2011, 03:21 PM   #5
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The Cylinder 1 Misfire code P0301 is a known intermittent issue caused by weak valve springs in this year Jeep. The manufacturer replaced the springs in production, but kept the same OEM number. Some vehicles experience multiple cyl misfire codes also. The only fix is to replace the springs.

I found this out after replacing the wires, cap & rotor, plugs, checked the CPS, TBS, cleaning of the throttle body and combustion chambers and installed Precision Injectors. I will say that the best part of all the checks and replacements was the injectors..Wow, what a difference to performance. If you don't have these in your rig....you are missing out!

Thanks for the response.
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Old 02-11-2011, 04:10 PM   #6
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You can buy (or make) a fitting to pressurize the cylinder with air which will keep the valve up. 110-120 psi will hold the valve against the seat . It just threads into the spark plug hole of the cylinder that you are working with. Make sure the fitting has a shutoff or a check valve or you will have to keep an air source hooked up until you are done.
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Old 02-11-2011, 06:59 PM   #7
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The Cylinder 1 Misfire code P0301 is a known intermittent issue caused by weak valve springs in this year Jeep. The manufacturer replaced the springs in production, but kept the same OEM number. Some vehicles experience multiple cyl misfire codes also. The only fix is to replace the springs.

I found this out after replacing the wires, cap & rotor, plugs, checked the CPS, TBS, cleaning of the throttle body and combustion chambers and installed Precision Injectors. I will say that the best part of all the checks and replacements was the injectors..Wow, what a difference to performance. If you don't have these in your rig....you are missing out!

Thanks for the response.
My TJ is a '97 4.0 and I did just as you, I changed everything, matched/high flow injectors, dist, the works. Then I read on here how '97 - '99 4.0 had a batch of "weak" valve springs and decided to change mine. I thought might as well, I have changed everything else. Cured my multi cylinder misfire code. I also "deglazed" my valves/cylinders with water. I used an old mech trick of stuffing cotton rope into the cylinder before turning it to tdc. That way the valve would not fall into the cylinder as I was changing the springs. Worked great. Good luck.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:10 PM   #8
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Thanks XtrmTJ..... If you could post the steps you took to deglaze valves and cylinders, I would truly appreciate it.

Thanks Everyone!!!!
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:35 PM   #9
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I would also pressure the cylinders with air.
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:05 PM   #10
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snap-on makes a valve spring compressor the best i've ever used ,hit it with a hammer and the spring comes right apart has a magnet to catch the retainers and the same tool installs them back really easy .use stock springs replace valve seals and use compressed air to load cylinder
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Old 02-12-2011, 05:12 PM   #11
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The last time I replaced springs I used the rope trick - WOW!

Using compressed air there's always the chance of the compressor stopping, an air line breaking etc. Plus you can't stop in the middle and come back the next day.
And, there's always the chance it's not at TDC and the air pressure rotates it - fingers at risk.

I used 1/4" cotton rope - stuffed it in the plug hole (left the tail out for removal), then by hand rotated the engine till it squeezed it. It held the valve up solid and securely.

When finished I simply rotated the engine back and pulled the rope out. Slick, easy, cheap, no adapters, no compressor - just do it!

I wish I'd learned it years ago.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:01 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by JDaviesspy View Post
If you could post the steps you took to deglaze valves and cylinders, I would truly appreciate it.
Easy. Fill a 12 ounce or so container of fresh water, like a coke can. Start the engine after removing the air intake pipe from the top of the throttle body.

Then, you simply VERY slowly trickle the water into the throttle body while you keep the rpms up a tad with your fingers on the throttle lever. The engine must be running. Trickle the water in slowly enough that it takes around two minutes to drain the container. Hold the container securely and under control, accidentally dumping all the water in at once could hydrolock your engine.

The water will be turned into a vapor inside the combustion chambers that will send microscopic shock waves against the valves, valve seats, cylinder tops, and cylinder head to break up carbon deposits that will be ejected out through the exhaust.

This method has been in use since WWII when aircraft engines often used water injection to increase their power. The mechanics soon observed that the engines with water injection were sparkling clean inside.

For the skeptics out there, no this isn't some stupid trick that will damage the engine if performed as described above.
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Old 02-12-2011, 10:19 PM   #13
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The P-51 Mustangs used water injection for an extra burst of power when needed - to give chase or "get the hell outta here." It works!
My neighbor as a kid flew them in WWII.

But what they don't tell you is when the Mustang returned with empty water bottles, it automatically called for a rebuild before it could fly again. In the Pacific where he was they couldn't get the parts needed, so they flew them anyway. That led to lots of losses due to engine failure.

Yes, it "steam cleans" the internals. It washes all the oil off the rings, causing excessive wear. It cleans the same as a steam cleaner does.

If the engine is badly carboned up because of a neglected misfire or other troubles, it can loosen up a chunk of carbon - if it gets "stuck" under a valve or to the top of a piston, causing severe damage.

Best way to clean it up SAFELY - add a decarbonizer to the fuel tank. It will slowly and safely and get rid of the deposits carbon. Modern day fuels should have enough decarbonizer to keep things clean.

Adding ANY liquid to the intake is dangerous - even Lucas, Sea scum, Marvel, etc -- there are lots of snake oils on the market. They all work the same, the cold liquid hitting hot carbon shatters it - there is certainly not enough time for them to cause a chemical reaction.

Rings seal with oil - remove the oil and you get poor sealing and excessive wear.


Look it up on the internet - It's what they DON'T tell you.
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:37 AM   #14
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Try something to see how effective these snake oils really are.
Pour some in a pan, soak some greasy or carboned up parts in them. Most at best only dissolve a little bit of the grease. And it's immersed in the stuff! Even soaking overnight for a week doesn't help.

PT Barnum was right!

Now try it with water!
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:38 AM   #15
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Thanks rrich, I appreciate your comments! I did research and found what you stated to be true, but also found in the same thread that it is "safe" to do it as long as you don't do it for an "extended period" of time. I think I will probably stick to the fuel additives for now!

Thanks,
Jason
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:43 AM   #16
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Valve spring replacement;


The easiest way has been suggested...mostly. Pull all the spark plugs, use a long screwdriver and place it in the hole of the cylinder you want to work on, then rotate the engine by either the alt. pulley or dampener while lightly holding the screwdriver (help guide it up) until the piston stops pushing the screwdriver up. If it feels like the screwdriver is binding, stop, and reposition the screwdriver before you continue. If you have a long narrow piece of plastic rod or wooden dowel all the better for the inexperienced so you don't risk scratching the cylinder walls. There, you are at TDC for that cylinder. If you know the firing order, you can do 2 cylinders at a time and minimize the number of times you have to rotate the engine.

If you do not want to put anything down the spark plug hole, then simply watch the rockers (or push rods if you pulled all the rockers already) and when both the intake and exhaust move a the same time for that cylinder, you are close enough to TDC.

Option 2; Using an air compressor. You can get a compression test kit or cylinder leakdown test kit relatively cheap (Harbor Freight is your friend). Same as before, pull all the plugs, remove the serpentine belt, (Manual tranny in gear and parking brake set will keep the engine from turning...must do both or put in neutral) pressurize the cylinder, and do what you need to do. If for some reason you have to stop in the middle of doing one spring, wrap a rubberband around the valve so it does not drop. This is a tried and proven method and nothing wrong or risky about it.

As soon as you start compressing the spring, keep that retrieval magnet on the top as close as you can to the retainers. Murphy's law applies. They will jump and bounce around when you least expect and fall down an oil return or push rod hole.

Deglazing or steam cleaning your cylinders.

I do not recommend anyone do this unless you have a lot of experience doing engine work or have done this before. Too easy to do it wrong, and yes, cause damage.

Sorry Jerry, but for someone who has never done this, that is the worst possible way to do it. Instant recipe for hydro-lock.

Presuming your engine will run with the intake removed from the throttle body (have not done this with a jeep, but most modern vehicles with a MAF sensor will not run unless it is reading air flow), use a spray bottle that will spray a fine mist and keep the engine RPMs at or above 4k and spray the throttle body opening. Personally I would use windshield washer fluid (must contain methanol not ethanol) but not sure what that will do to the O2 sensors. I run it in my Diesel as an actual performance kit. http://www.snowperformance.net/

If the engine will not run you should be able to leave it on and spray into the crank case breather inlet on the intake duct.

If you do manage to do this, spray slowly and do not keep spraying if the engine starts to run too slow or starts knocking. READ - spray once or twice then wait a few seconds for the engine to recover.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:57 AM   #17
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A little story:
I had a mechanic that "knew everything" and didn't follow orders, we had to watch him like a Hawk to keep him from shortcutting jobs. I think I'd only had him for a few weeks and was already looking for a replacement.

He'd finished tuning up an old lady customer's car, a carb adjustment and new plugs. The old plugs came out really black. He told me he was going to de-carbonize it with water. I told him not to, just add a couple of cans of "stuff" to her full tank.

A few minutes later the shop filled with smoke! He was revving the engine and pouring water down it. I stopped him - too late! When the idle dropped down it had a big knock to it. Definitely a cylinder problem.

Before the smoke cleared the Fire Department was there! The old lady needed her car back, so I rented her a rental car. Next day I had him pull the head off - a chunk of carbon had come loose and stuck on top of the piston. Every time the piston came up it hit the roof and CLUNK CLUNK. It wasn't even a big chunk, about the size of a flattened pea.

After he finished putting it back together I fired him.
He sued me.
I would not pay him the labor for repairing the damage he caused.
I held back the cost parts needed for her car - head set, manifold gasket etc.
I held back what it cost for the rental car.
And I held back what the Fire Departmnt charged me for a false alarm.
Whet he'd already had coming in pay wasn't near enough to cover the expenses - his parting check was $0.

The Labor Board upheld me.
I think these were about the numbers -
Fire Department $700
Gaskets $50
4 days Rental Car - $250

I think I only really recovered about $300 from him by holding back his pay owed.
He (I) was lucky - it could have caused a bent valve (carbon holding valve open, piston hitting the valve, or even a collapsed ring land.)

Using snake oil or turtle wax wouldn't have made any difference.

Look at a dragster with Zoomie exhausts - see the tennis balls in the ends? That's not to keep rain out! A hot engine with cool air getting on the valves can bend the valve stems like pretzels. Just think what water or a cold liquid can do. (Even liquid gasoline.)

It works, but it is risky - the spray bottle is safer than pouring, but --.

Feeling Lucky? Go to Vegas!

In the tank "stuff" - GM makes a really great cleaner - available only at dealers and is pricey.
Techron - available at most parts stores does a good job.
Always change the oil afterwards.

But neither will fix a mechanical problem that's caused it.
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:18 AM   #18
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Regardless of the hand-wringing worry expressed above, the exact procedure I described above is perfectly safe to do on an as-needed basis. That exact process has been used for many years by many experienced mechanics.

Many commonly done procedures can wreck an engine if done incorrectly. Is that to say we shouldn't do anything because it could wreck an engine if done incorrectly? Of course not.
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:49 PM   #19
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"""""That exact process has been used for many years by many experienced mechanics."""""

Yup, it's an old trick.
Like clothes pins on the fuel line to prevent vapor lock, banana peels in the diffs, oatmeal in the radiator, 1500 mile oil changes, kerosene in the crankcase, magnets on the fuel line, plugging off the PCV system, Nutty Bypass, all kinds of things.

Do them at your own risk.
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:57 PM   #20
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Regardless of the hand-wringing worry expressed above, the exact procedure I described above is perfectly safe to do on an as-needed basis. That exact process has been used for many years by many experienced mechanics...
I agree. An experienced mechanic has an ear, for lack of a better description, as to how the engine is reacting to the treatment.

A shade tree/DIY vehicle owner however does not, and one persons definition of "trickle" is another persons "dump".

Even when I give write ups for repair procedures for posting on forums like this, I have to step back and remember that I am not writing for fellow mechanics, but fellow vehicle owners who only have a rudimentary understanding of how the engine works, and the use of tools.

Tighten down, can lead to broken bolts or nowhere near tight enough. Left and right go out the window, so it is passenger side and drivers side. Always hand thread a nut or bolt, never use a tool. Little things that we (mechanics) do without thinking need to be explained in exact detail.

For your procedure, I would have suggested an eye dropper and no more than 3 drops per second. Yeah, you can go more, but hard to explain that type of measurement accurately.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:10 PM   #21
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Yup, pros and amateurs often don't speak the same language.

Driver' side - passenger side - sometimes even that's confusing - left or right hand drive?

Like the lady that walked into my shop - do you make keys here? I need a new key, mine won't start my car anymore. She needed a battery!

"When I engage the clutch -" engage? Does that mean pedal up or pedal down?

Or when I told the guy he needed a generator (60's) - he looked me straight in the eye with a mad face and looked like he was going to hit me - "You are a liar and crook, I don't have a generator, I have a battery!"

A lady had her 12 cyl Jag towed in to me - I need an engine! She left it with me. Another shop had "tuned it" up and it wouldn't start. (Strange - she drove in to them, then had to tow it out?) I found the ignition wires all crossed up. Fixed it, my bill was $30. When she came back it was running fine.
She got mad - her "mechanic" said it needed a new engine.
"Then take it back to him."
"He doesn't do engines."
She refused to pay my bill - and stuck me with the towing bill I'd paid for her, she had it towed elsewhere.
"I'm never coming back here again!" "Thank you!"

We really have to be careful what we say here - I'd really hate to have someone ruin something because they didn't fully understand.
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Old 02-13-2011, 04:56 PM   #22
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I am an old shade tree mech. I did exactly as Jerry described, I "trickled" in the water, it worked, my motor runs fine, no damage as far as I can tell. Fires up every time, runs great, no more error codes, as far as I can tell problem solved for the cost of a bottle of H2O ! Thanks Jerry !
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:28 AM   #23
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they make water injection kits so it can't be that dangerous to do that . i have 14 2-stroke dirt bikes i've polished all the pistons and heads , no carbon on any of them in 10 years when i look in the spark plug hole still looks like a mirror
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:01 AM   #24
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"""""they make water injection kits so it can't be that dangerous to do that"""""

Smart! They make cigarettes too!

Then do it!
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Old 02-14-2011, 09:12 AM   #25
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Just to let you know Rich that water injection is still used in commercial and military aircraft engines for more power... both recipricating and jet/turbine.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:19 AM   #26
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All I can do is tell the risks of using water - poured or injected. I told MY experience with the employee. I can't and won't stop anybody from doing it or smoking. With the economy the way it is, engine rebuilders certainly need the business.

Hell, I won't even bother to stop someone playing Russian Roulette.

I just called a friend that is a Master Chief working on Marine Corps aircraft. He doesn't know of any military aircraft that uses water injection.

When you install a Turbo Jet Engine in your Rubicon, try it then let us know!


BTW - in the thread about Ethanol - I made a suggestion about where to invest some money - even a small amount. No responses to it.

Last week my sizable investment went up over 2.5 times. Today that total doubled so far this morning, and the market has only been open about 3 hours!

Some people can't, or don't want to listen and learn or even think, they already know everything.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:59 PM   #27
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"Some people can't, or don't want to listen and learn or even think, they already know everything"

I was just thinking the same thing after reading some of YOUR responses.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:05 PM   #28
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Okay folks, this thread calms down or it's closed.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:30 AM   #29
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I just called a friend that is a Master Chief working on Marine Corps aircraft. He doesn't know of any military aircraft that uses water injection.
That's because it's not actually called water injection. The military refers to it as ADI, or anti-detonate injection, or MW-50, as in methanol water injection. Hear that? That's the sound of you and the master chief being wrong.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:56 AM   #30
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Water/methanol injection is great! And it only gets more fun as you start pushing positive pressure through the motor.

I had a Coolingmist kit for my BMW that used the windshield reservoir.

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