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Old 03-14-2012, 08:30 AM   #31
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So the key wont crank the engine?

There is an energizer wire for the alt. thats on when the key is at run. If for some reason your energizer wire doesn't get power, the alternator will not produce a charge. This could also explain why it bench tested good.

10v sounds like the battery voltage while the jeep is running. I also have a 350 conversion. You might have burned out the ignition switch that rests on top of the steering column and attaches via a rod to the ignition key mechanism.

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So the alternator works Energizes creating a magnetic field. That wire comes from power on the Run position of the ignition key.
Then you have a charging wire to the battery and a power wire for the stater.
My first thought is that its not energizing. If it does not energize then no magnetic field is created and induction can not occure.


If its also the case that the key wont turn over the engine, then check this switch, its on the steering column under the dash. On top.
We wired the distributor to the battery and wired a switch on the dash for this. Flip switch up, turn key, Jeep cranks. Flip switch down, turn key, Jeep turns off. We've forced it to crank with the key this way by wiring the dist. to the battery and using a switch inside the Jeep.

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Old 03-14-2012, 02:09 PM   #32
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terminology

To me (70 yr old) crank means turning the engine over by the starter (or in "the day" with a hand crank). That is when the engine actually turns over and you can hear the load on the starter as it cranks the engine. If the starter doesn't engage you will get a higher, whining, noise of the starter spinning with no load.

The term for what I understand you have is that the engine will crank but won't start. If that is the case, then you have a fuel or spark (ignition) problem. But it sounds like you can get it started but it won't charge the battery.

You are still likely using the ECM, if for nothing else than to supply the field current for the alternator to charge. If that is the case, I believe there is a thread here on bypassing the voltage regulator in the ECM. That would be the thing to check and do.

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Old 03-14-2012, 08:08 PM   #33
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We wired the distributor to the battery and wired a switch on the dash for this. Flip switch up, turn key, Jeep cranks. Flip switch down, turn key, Jeep turns off. We've forced it to crank with the key this way by wiring the dist. to the battery and using a switch inside the Jeep.

Why?
The Distributer, the alternator, and all kinds of other stuff gets power from the key being in the Run position. If the key wasn't allowing the distributer to run, then most likely its not energizing the alternator, which is why you its not charging. You can spin it all day as fast as you want. If you don't energize it, induction can not begin.

Wire the black wire on the alternator into the same wire as the distributer. See if it charges then.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:54 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Master4th View Post
Why?
The Distributer, the alternator, and all kinds of other stuff gets power from the key being in the Run position. If the key wasn't allowing the distributer to run, then most likely its not energizing the alternator, which is why you its not charging. You can spin it all day as fast as you want. If you don't energize it, induction can not begin.

Wire the black wire on the alternator into the same wire as the distributer. See if it charges then.

X2 X2 X2 I think this man has hit the nail on the head! I can be wrong ,but I think that's it.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:15 PM   #35
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I appreciate every single bit of y'alls help and appreciate you staying with me on this...I do apologize for the break down due to my lack of knowledge of terms and parts and lack of mechanical knowledge. I truly am trying to explain it from what I hear and what I see and I know it may mean something different to you guys b/c you have experience. You all have taught me so much already. I took the day off from it. I will look at these ideas tomorrow and post back tomorrow. Thank you for taking the time to do what you do...and that is being awesome enough to share your experiences and knowledge with people.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:28 PM   #36
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Why?
The Distributer, the alternator, and all kinds of other stuff gets power from the key being in the Run position. If the key wasn't allowing the distributer to run, then most likely its not energizing the alternator, which is why you its not charging. You can spin it all day as fast as you want. If you don't energize it, induction can not begin.

Wire the black wire on the alternator into the same wire as the distributer. See if it charges then.
Is the black wire the "energizing" wire?
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:01 AM   #37
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Yeah, you should have a pigtail coming off the alternator, 1 red 1 black. then a bolt on red wire.

The black wire is the energizer wire.
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:25 PM   #38
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My pigtail is 3 wires (brown, red, black) my red and black wire from that pigtail is cut and taped, my brown wire is wired to a fuse link and then to a red wire which splits. I have a black wire with a stripe coming off a bolt on my alt. that has a big connector on the end that connects to a connector on a red wire that runs and plugs into my relay.
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:39 PM   #39
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My pigtail is 3 wires (brown, red, black) my red and black wire from that pigtail is cut and taped, my brown wire is wired to a fuse link and then to a red wire which splits. I have a black wire with a stripe coming off a bolt on my alt. that has a big connector on the end that connects to a connector on a red wire that runs and plugs into my relay.

some pics of that setup might help
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:41 PM   #40
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My pigtail is 3 wires (brown, red, black) my red and black wire from that pigtail is cut and taped, my brown wire is wired to a fuse link and then to a red wire. I have a black wire with a stripe coming off a bolt on my alt. that has a big connector on the end that connects to a connector on a red wire that runs and plugs into my relay.
So the red and black wire are connected together, or are they not connected at all?

So you have a Chevy 4 wire. If I remember right the extra wire (not sure what color it was, went to the fuel pump. I'm headed out the door atm when I get back ill see if I can find a decent wiring diagram and tell you what wire is what.

If you have any pictures to post that would be helpful as well.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:49 PM   #41
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:54 PM   #42
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So the red and black wire are connected together, or are they not connected at all?

So you have a Chevy 4 wire. If I remember right the extra wire (not sure what color it was, went to the fuel pump. I'm headed out the door atm when I get back ill see if I can find a decent wiring diagram and tell you what wire is what.

If you have any pictures to post that would be helpful as well.
The black and red wires are cut and taped off, they are not connected to anything...they are a part of the wire harness that connects to the alternator but they are cut and not used.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:10 PM   #43
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is the wire on the carb just bolted to the housing as a ground?

the splice in the 3rd pic may have a fuse in it if you haven't checked it already

I believe the connector in the 4th pic was a diagnostic connector for the old computer
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:25 PM   #44
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Update: We undid the "rig" that we did (which was hotwire the distributor to the battery) so that we could go back to square 1 and fix things rather than rig things. So as we sit, we have a Jeep that won't start UNLESS we use the prong on the relay that is always hot instead of the prong that is hot on start and run. When we use the relay prong that's hot on start and run, the Jeep will NOT start. If we move it to a different prong on that relay that is always hot, it will start but you can NOT turn it off with the key, you have to unplug that wire to get the Jeep to turn off. We have replaced the relay. If I was having a problem with my starter or starter selenoid or both...would I be able to start the Jeep at all? So I cannot start the Jeep unless on the hot wire and the battery won't charge or isn't receiving a charge.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:28 PM   #45
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is the wire on the carb just bolted to the housing as a ground?

the splice in the 3rd pic may have a fuse in it if you haven't checked it already

I believe the connector in the 4th pic was a diagnostic connector for the old computer
I don't know if it is just a ground. It's a red wire, I assumed it was a "hot" wire. It plugs into the carb.

The third pic is of the connectors, I disconnected them just to see what was in it and it looks like a connector end and no fuse.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:49 PM   #46
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To me (70 yr old) crank means turning the engine over by the starter (or in "the day" with a hand crank). That is when the engine actually turns over and you can hear the load on the starter as it cranks the engine. If the starter doesn't engage you will get a higher, whining, noise of the starter spinning with no load.

The term for what I understand you have is that the engine will crank but won't start. If that is the case, then you have a fuel or spark (ignition) problem. But it sounds like you can get it started but it won't charge the battery.

You are still likely using the ECM, if for nothing else than to supply the field current for the alternator to charge. If that is the case, I believe there is a thread here on bypassing the voltage regulator in the ECM. That would be the thing to check and do.
It won't start. It makes noise but won't actually start unless we use the prong on the relay that is "always hot," but if we use the relay prong that is hot only on "start & run," it will make the noise to try to start but will not start. And if we use the always hot prong, then we can't turn the Jeep off with the key, to turn it off we have to unplug the wire from the prong. Also there is a charging problem b/c the battery either won't charge or isn't receiving the charge.
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:43 AM   #47
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That last pic looks VERY close to that of a relay socket. Perhaps you are missing an important relay that lets the Jeep start?
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:37 AM   #48
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That last pic looks VERY close to that of a relay socket. Perhaps you are missing an important relay that lets the Jeep start?
Thanks, I wish that was the problem but it's been empty since we bought it last May. I was curious if I could/should remove it or not.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:00 AM   #49
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Does the wire that goes to the carb connect to the elec. choke? if so that is a +[pos.] wire.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:03 AM   #50
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The black and red wires that are cut and not used, where they connected at some time and may be you re-taped them separate ?
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:12 AM   #51
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The black and red wires that are cut and not used, where they connected at some time and may be you re-taped them separate ?
No, they've always been like this.
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Old 03-16-2012, 10:13 AM   #52
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Does the wire that goes to the carb connect to the elec. choke? if so that is a +[pos.] wire.
Are grounds always bolted? If so this is not a ground b/c it has a connector on it that is connected to carb.
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Old 03-16-2012, 12:55 PM   #53
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Ok Well if your turning your key to start postition and its not starting the vehicle, but when you put a constant 12v to the distributor. Then the problem is in the key switch, or the power wiring to or from the key.

Now you have a switch on the steering column. It looks like this.

This switch is responsible for power distribution to everything. When you turn your key to acc, run, or start this switch sends power where it needs to go.
There will be 2 connectors plugged into this switch. Mine are Blue and Black. If your looking at the switch from the passenger side (which is the direction the "prongs" are pointing, the left plug is Distributor power (Mine is Yellow) With some alternators there is a Diode in this wire to prevent backfeeding to the distributor (backfeeding would cuase your vehicle to keep runing after you turn the key off.), Starter Turn on Power (Mine is Green), and a double wire (Mine is purple/white)This purple wire "I think" is accessory power.
On the other plug is your incoming power. Here is a picture of it in my Wrangler.


Ok so here is a diagram of the switch


For right now lets concern ourselves where the problem is.

With the key in the Run Position use a multimeter and test this Yellow wire for 12v. Now once this Yellow wire leaves the ignition switch it goes to the fuse box then out of the vehicle then splices and those 2 wires go to the distributor and alternator energizer wire. If you have 12volts at the switch then the problem is somewhere from the switch to the Alternator/Distributor.

Next test might require 2 men, with the Multimeter on the green wire turn to start the vehicle. You should be getting 12vs on the green wire in the start position [Thats the key position as if your tring to start the vehicle].

Next test The Red wire (12RD) This wire should be 12volts with the key off.

Now if you have 12vs at the red wire, but limited or no voltage at Yellow & Green then the switch is bad and needs replaced.

If you have 12volts at the switch for Yellow {Remember this wire only has power with the key in the run position} then your wire is bad and needs to be traced and repaired.

If you have 12volts at the switch for Green {Remember this wire only has power with the key in the start position} Then your wire is bad and needs to be traced and repaired.
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Lets talk about your pictures.

The black wire is your charging wire. Its where the electricity comes out when the car is running. Test that for 14.4 volts.
From my 350 sbc book looks like brown wire is your Energizer wire. It should be hooked in somewhere along the wire thats hooked to your distributor. (which is yellow on my Wrangler)

That splice is fine thats Run Key position power for your choke.

Now assuming that Brown is the energizer wire. There isn't a wire hooked up to the internal voltage regulator. Here is the picture of the min wires needing hooked up for the alt. to be working properly.



As you can see one of the other 2 wires in that plug should be hooking into the battery power. You can simply fold it down and bolt it to the where the black wire is.

That red wire that is 'Cut and not used' is most likely suppose to be hooked to battery power. You can just put a ring terminal on it and connect it to the charging stud where the black & white wire is attached.

How long has it been runing wired this way?

A potential problem with a open circuit alternator, the way yours apears to be wired, is that it just puts out maximum power all the time. This has the potential to fry the battery, and other electronics in the car.
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:14 PM   #54
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I had a thought on the alterntor wiring, are you sure that the Red and Brown wire where not wired together into that yellow fuse? It can be done like that, you just have to make sure you rev the engine over 2600 rpms to energize the alternator.
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:18 PM   #55
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Wow, that's a lot of information and you explained it well enough that I can grasp most of it, lol. This conversion was completed in 2003. We bought this for our son May 2011 (we've had problems from day one~we've rebuilt carb, replaced parts, etc. etc. etc.). I assume it's been wired this way since 2003. In the first pic where you see the brown wire wired to the yellow fuse link, there was a black breaker type thing there that was on...meaning the breaker has a bright red light in it and it has never been on but when this all happened, it turned on. This Jeep belonged to a man in the military who sold it to another man in the military. I googled this breaker and it seems to belong in the cockpit of an airplane and when it lights up red, it means caution now immediate attention now. So something went wrong obviously (lol), but anyhow I don't have access to "government" parts and so I replaced it with the fuse link.
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:19 PM   #56
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I had a thought on the alterntor wiring, are you sure that the Red and Brown wire where not wired together into that yellow fuse? It can be done like that, you just have to make sure you rev the engine over 2600 rpms to energize the alternator.
I'm pretty sure they weren't b/c it was a breaker and we put the fuse link in.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:26 AM   #57
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Is there a trick to getting inside the steering column to get to that switch?
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Old 03-18-2012, 12:45 PM   #58
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I have 12v on yellow when starting Jeep, I have 12 v on green when starting Jeep, I have 12v on red when Jeep is off.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:24 PM   #59
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Why?
The Distributer, the alternator, and all kinds of other stuff gets power from the key being in the Run position. If the key wasn't allowing the distributer to run, then most likely its not energizing the alternator, which is why you its not charging. You can spin it all day as fast as you want. If you don't energize it, induction can not begin.

Wire the black wire on the alternator into the same wire as the distributer. See if it charges then.
Which black wire do I try this with? The black wire that is cut and not used which is a part of my wiring harness to my alt or are you talking about the black wire that has the ring end that is bolted to the alternator?
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:14 PM   #60
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Which black wire do I try this with? The black wire that is cut and not used which is a part of my wiring harness to my alt or are you talking about the black wire that has the ring end that is bolted to the alternator?
On your alternator the Brown Wire should be hooked to a wire that has power when the key is in the run position.

The Red wire coming out of the plug can be hooked onto the ring stud on the back of the alternator with the Black and White wire.

From what I looked up The brown wire is your energizer wire, and the Red wire is your Regulator power wire, Your black and white wire charges the battery.

The last wire was for a fuel pump in the original chevy vehicle and is not needed.
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I think thats what cuased your problem but the fact that the key wont start the vehicle needs to be addressed first.

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