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Old 12-02-2009, 11:54 AM   #1
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95 YJ weird issue/ overwhelmed

So let me start off by saying I feel bad for not contributing as much here as I do on the bimmer boards, but I've got some weird issues going on and really need hand.

So I drove this rusty woods driven (2.5l) jeep W/ an extremely over loaded trailer (ha.) from Concord, NH to Phoenix, AZ this summer.. The trip went well, slow but well and my pup has officially pissed on every tree down 66, and I95.

So while I was in Phoenix just in time for the 115 degree days, the heat definitely took it's toll on a few things but it wasn't until i was preparing to leave when the mess happened.

My ecu died and after ordering a new one, waiting a week, and flying over to the ups station to pick it up (because deliveries had stopped for the day) I promptly threw it in there and went for a drive. I made it maybe 10-15 miles and i was unable to get her into the upper RPMs then she finally died leaving me stranded on the (almost) side of the highway.

At this point I figured maybe it was because I had the fuel pump relay wire hooked to straight 12v (due to a previous mishap with a branch) but even after rewiring back to stock she simply won't start, and is throwing no codes.

Now I was forced to have the jeep shipped back to NH (yay $1,300) and my dog, stuff, and myself as well. When the jeep arrived 3wks after me I went back to it with a new set of eyes thinking maybe there is something I'm overlooking. but now a new issue has presented itself..

When i turn the key to start (or crank it) it just clicks and all the electrical cuts out.. Everything.. lights, radio, and it's unresponsive until i disconnect the battery and hook it back up. But when i hook the starter right up to the battery it cranks the engine when the KEY IS OFF. When the key is in the ON position the starter does nothing but spark the wires on the battery.

It's now been about 2 months, and I can't work without my jeep so needless to say I've got to get this thing on the road ASAP or I'll starve!

Any insight will help a ton!

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Old 12-02-2009, 01:07 PM   #2
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When i turn the key to start (or crank it) it just clicks and all the electrical cuts out.. Everything.. lights, radio, and it's unresponsive until i disconnect the battery and hook it back up. But when i hook the starter right up to the battery it cranks the engine when the KEY IS OFF. When the key is in the ON position the starter does nothing but spark the wires on the battery.

The issue is obviously electric. There's really no good way about it. Start following wires. Start with the big things first and test them with a voltmeter. Check out the CPS, IAC, everything you can...

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Old 12-02-2009, 03:09 PM   #3
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You said rusty jeep,check grounds.thats where i would start.remove and clean.
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:21 PM   #4
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Simplest (and cheapest) first. CHECK your battery connections and wires. Clean any and all with a wire brush. Any corrossion no matter how insignificant it may seem can cause your symptoms. More then likely the problem has also drained your battery to a point where you don't have enough power for the starter. If all connections are clean, check your cables closely for any cracks or wear.
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:21 PM   #5
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You would think if it were a ground issue hooking the starter to the positive terminal wouldn't do anything..

What does the auto shut down relay do exactly? anybody know? because it happens so swift and consistent it's almost as if it's supposed to do that.

Where does the ecu ground ??

I'll definitely go at the wiring later tonight or in the A.M. Are there any suggestions or pos. and neg. i can run to bypass what ever is causing this?


What would have enough control to kill all electronics and not let them power back up until the battery is disconnected and reconnected??
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Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDsDream View Post
Simplest (and cheapest) first. CHECK your battery connections and wires. Clean any and all with a wire brush. Any corrossion no matter how insignificant it may seem can cause your symptoms. More then likely the problem has also drained your battery to a point where you don't have enough power for the starter. If all connections are clean, check your cables closely for any cracks or wear.
He said it better than I did Corrosion is most likely the culprit here .disconecting and re conecting the battery will temporaily give contact .your main leads can corrode all the way through the cables.It can be a real PITA baking soda and water will also help the clean up
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:29 PM   #7
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So I traced every wire and found nothing, just for giggles I tried the key and it cranked.. Although it was in gear and i nearly ran myself over being the cool guy i am hanging half of it, it was a pleasant surprise..

Now I grabbed a crank sensor from a 96 4.0 w an obdII connector. spliced the old connector on and installed that yesterday. bolted right in. Keep in mind I've got a 95 2.5l obdI wrangler.

Now I just pulled a spark plug and i'm not getting any spark still, it did smell like gas but wasn't wet.. I've got the fuel pump hooked to straight 12v so i know it's getting to the injectors, but don't they pulse with the cam sensor not the crank sensor?? or does the ecu shut them both down?

I checked the codes again and got one for the crank sensor, battery being disco'd, and a/c something which i don't have, and i'm not sure if these are old codes or current ones. It's been giving me the same ones for a while.

What is the crank sensor sensing?? ha. i mean there's got to be part 2 inside the bell housing right? is there any way to fool it into thinking it's working?? Because the sparks not variable right? it's just there getting distributed by the distributor?

I've checked out a couple of the univeral coils and they mention working with the 4.0's but not the 2.5's and they just hook to pos and neg terminals and voila spark right?
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Old 12-07-2009, 01:35 PM   #8
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Not to be a smart @ss, but why didn't you take it to a garage in AZ and get it fixed, as opposed to shipping it back home for $1300?
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:27 PM   #9
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Because I was flying home. fix/ drive = fly/ ship + no headache.

but i've checked all the grounds, replaced the cps, and run the on board diagnostics (finally clean), there doesn't seem to be power to the coil although if i unplug the ECU and plug it back it, THEN try to start it it will give me one... "kick" like it wants to start. but then nothing.

Remember my ecu went in phoenix. then i replaced it, fuel pump, starter, coil, and now cps. It ran immediately with the new ecu for a few miles, then left me stranded where i am at now... still..

Can somebody take a pic, or look and just note which wires go where on the fuel pump relay. it never mattered before because i just ran it to 12v and the jeep ran for weeks like that but i'm desperate.

Any ideas?
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Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
no one ever said life was easy.
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Old 12-27-2009, 05:56 PM   #10
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OK, being a bimmer guy I got to try to help, bimmers gotta be the best on road car there is

No spark when you crank:
crank sensor
cam sensor
coil
rotor/cap
ecu

Do you have enough fuel pressure, don't know for certain what the 2.5 needs but probably around 45 psi, if it's low that would explain the "unable to get her into the upper RPMs" and if it has gotten worse explain the no start.

The electrical died when I crank is the typical bad connection... I would replace both battery cables, don't mess with them just replace them, there is this black crap that grows up the cables and ruins them over the years and there is no fix besides replacement, and while you are going to autozone to get the cables take your battery with you and have them load test it, it may be crap and causing your problems.. eliminate all of the easy stuff then work towards the hard stuff...

Can't wait till spring to get the 540 back out I love going fast
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:52 PM   #11
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Okay so after tracing every wire, tightening crimps, cleaning, replacing grounds, pushing the pins in the ecu connector, and running the multi-meter on everything, she almost started. she gave a kick and then nothing. I figure it was because she was nearly out of gas, and my battery was nearly dead. so I threw a gallon or two in her and let her charge a bit and the same thing. a kick, backfire, then crank city.

HOWEVER there is a new trouble code.. For the ASD. What would cause this?

Now I currently have my fuel pump relay hooked up how I believe it is supposed to be. Rather than the green/ black wire (WHICH IS NOW SOLID RED) hooked to 12v



Can anyone confirm that this is the right way for the fuel pump relay? Anyone know what causes the trouble code for the auto shut down relay?

Soo close.
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Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:58 AM   #12
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I'm showing a 42 now, so this must mean the relay is hooked up wrong?? damn. is there a way to test if it's hooked up right? and why didn't i need this before?

I had the prime wire connected to 12v and ran it for weeks that way.

it seems like the old ecu either liked shi^^y conditions or the new (used) one was from a pristine YJ. Seriously this thing ran perfect before the ecu was replaced.. and for a short bit after.. and yes i've swapped relays already.




41* Alternator field control circuit open or shorted
42 Automatic shutdown relay circuit open or shorted
OR
Fuel pump relay control circuit
OR
Fuel level unit - no change over miles
OR
Z1 voltage missing when autoshutdown circuit energized (whatever that means)
43 Peak primary coil current not achieved with max dwell time
OR
Cylinder misfire
OR
Problem in power module to logic module interface
44 No FJ2 voltage present at logic board
OR
Logic module self-diagnostics indicate problem
OR
Battery temperature out of range
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Diagnally parked, in a parallel universe.
Specifically integral parts as if a machine we're speaking,or on drugs and peaking.
Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
no one ever said life was easy.
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:45 AM   #13
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are you sure your replacement ecu is 1. good and 2. the correct one?

the hardest troubleshoots i ever did were when the replacement parts went bad out of the box or shortly thereafter....
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:25 AM   #14
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Well it did run for a short while with this ecu, it was bought through a company in Oregon that a checkers auto parts in phoenix, AZ put me in contact with. I forget the name. and it came labeled for my specific jeep. They definitely charged professional, and answered the phone afterward, and offered a warranty if my old ecu was returned to them in usable condition.

But is there any way to test the ecu itself? It seems to work right, it's been giving me error codes for specific things which have been fixed and they went away. I've now got spark, and fuel until the asd relay kicks in.. Which is making me believe the fuel pump relay isn't hooked up right.. Because they share two of the four contacts (wires).


Any info you've got is much appreciated. and I thought i had a seen a writeup on testing the ecu but can't seem to find it now that i'm looking.. HA
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:27 AM   #15
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well i went through something like this but why did you hook up straight power to the fuel pump? when i did that to mines it recieved to much fuel so it was backfiring . the crank sensor senses the spokes on your flywheel. the flywheel has two sets of ring gear for manuals one for crank reading and one for the starter and for automatics they have this combined into one. iam not liking the fact that you cut and spliced the crank sensor of a 96 jeep with obd 2 instead of 1. those sensor are real sensentive. but was the sensor out of a yj or tj?
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:28 PM   #16
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Well that explains why the obd 2 sensor from an automatic didn't work even though 3 different mechanics said crank sensors are all the same.. ha. I was thinking the voltage was too low and too specific to be passed through the connectors I was using

but after i installed that and it was still giving me the trouble code so i immediately got a new one... guess what?? NO CODE...

but It ran today for about 2 hours. When i shut it off it wouldn't start back up. I did have to pull a spark plug (which was nasty) and while i was checking for spark it kicked over.

I checked and i'm getting voltage from the coil, but not out of the distributor. So i picked up a new cap (which was rusty and grooved pretty bad), and am waiting for my battery to charge because I'm only getting 1v out of the new one on a nearly dead battery. I grabbed new spark plugs and wires as well just because everything is checking out into the distributor i figured why not.

Oo and the ASD code was because of the fuel pump relay. I straightened that out with the ever so simple trial and error process.. plus once you realize that the other relays share positive and another wire all in the same spots the other two come pretty easily..

and I had the wire hooked to straight 12v because of a previous mishap with a tree branch. 12v made the pump and jeep run.

I'm ever so close, I don't know what else to do or test. It started once and ran for quite a while... it's kicking like it wants to start occasionally. Hopefully after the battery charges a bit, and the new cap, wires, and plugs

Does anybody know what kind of voltage I should be seeing in and out of the coil? out of the distributor? and out of the plug wires?
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Diagnally parked, in a parallel universe.
Specifically integral parts as if a machine we're speaking,or on drugs and peaking.
Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
no one ever said life was easy.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:33 PM   #17
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She fired right up. Shut her off, and she fired right up again.
Now she's holding the check engine light..

12- battery's been disco'd (been there)
33- AC whatever I don't have it (been there)

These two are new though
41-An open or shorted condition detected in the generator field control circuit.
42-An open or shorted condition detected in the auto shutdown relay circuit.

but it's running.. Thank god. because the tranny just went in my girls car.

Any idea how to fix these before they cause any more e'ffed up issues.
DAMN, I miss when a simple socket set could fix anything!
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Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:42 PM   #18
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I go out this morning and again. no start, no new codes.
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if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:04 PM   #19
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The makings of a soap opera. I think it is time for a certified mechanic to look at it. It might be something simple they can decode with a scope as you may spend the next two weeks looking for the problem. Besides if I were you I wouldn't have a sense of humor left.
I just deported my 4 cyl for a six and went from fuel injected to carburator. The wiring problem was a mess but less complicated.. One can spend a week tracing wires and checking power to various points. Think I have a handle on it now.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:36 PM   #20
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To be honest with you if I had the loot I'd definitely just tow it over. Unfortunately I'm looking at a pile of change that's mine, just over a dollar. ha.
OOo almost two.

It starts every time as long as a spark plug is removed.. scares me and the pup every time with a blast of air/ gas to the face. so i know it can happen unfortunately I can't find what the voltages should be after the coil. Seems like the mix isn't burning enough to kick it over with full compression
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Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
no one ever said life was easy.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:15 AM   #21
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I am ECSTATIC to finally put this post to rest.

With a single last question.

What would cause the need for an overly huge spark plug gap?
As I was standing there scratching my head wondering why it would start minus one spark plug, I was moving the old spark plugs into their respective junk bucket and noticed two of the four had a giant gap. I'm talking surprised they even sparked huge.

Immediately after increasing the gap to almost ginormous on the new plugs she started up and ran like a champ, all day, all night, probably 40 or 50 miles total stopping at stores and friends places.

Weird
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Specifically integral parts as if a machine we're speaking,or on drugs and peaking.
Living slow but constant. Seemingly meaningless pieces,
if thrown stray your whole operation will seize.
no one ever said life was easy.
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:56 PM   #22
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what would cause this is that not all fuel is getting sparked up, so a bigger gap thus bigger arc of spark will give you more chance to use all that fuel but most time this is more sereve if your engine has been modifyed or combustion ratio has changed. I see now why you were proably getting clyinder misfire 43.I am glad everything worked out for you.I love To see more jeeps on the road

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