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Old 05-27-2013, 10:46 PM   #1
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Another 4.2L carter carb & performance issue

Okay, I've searched, and done the recommended steps from the forums and peoples youtube videos.

First off, she is a 1990 YJ with a 4.2L, 5spd, and a reman carter carb (dated 2011)

Jeep ran pretty decent until yesterday morning when I accidentally barely bumped the distributor while looking at the orange and purple wires to do the Nutter Bypass.

That is where my issues started.
It started running rough and idling funny, so I got out my timing light, followed the instructions and re-set the timing. Seemed to be fine until I drove it down the block and at every stop sign it would die. WTF..

So today I did the Nutter Bypass, followed instructions on doing it and setting the timing to 8*. Ran like a champ. It was awesome for about 2 miles, then same issue. Every time I push in the clutch and push on the brake pedal to stop it idles rough and dies. I have somewhat remedied it by adjusting the throttle stop (center long screw) so that it idles just under 1000rpm, and it isn't currently dying. Still have a slight misfire.

So, what I am noticing though is that when I am pushing on the brakes and the engine rev's are coming down, that is when it goes below idle speed and wants to spit, sputter and die.

Here is what all I did: Today I did the Nutter bypass, replaced the Ignition Control Module to get rid of misfire (didn't work), Replaced the distributor cap & rotor, Replaced spark plugs (didn't work), Replaced ignition coil post connector to remedy misfire as the old terminal connectors were rusty (didn't work),new air filter, plugged open ports on stock air cleaner, got rid of emissions hoses and sensors and plugged all vacuum ports not needed. Just pretty much bare bones carter. I don't have any vacuum leaks.

Only vacuum lines hooked up are for brake booster, distributor timing advance, PCV, and the vacuum to the electric choke. Idles pretty decent in open loop, however a slight misfire. Seems that the misfire gets worse at closed loop.


Still has a misfire somewhere, and have pulled plug wires and it hasn't changed, so perhaps it is in the distributor. Once in closed loop and running above idle while driving, it runs great, however once in a while I can still feel it misfire.

Also, ran through 16.3 gallons of gas in 166 miles, and it ran me out on the side of the highway. So a 1h 45m trip took me 3h 45m to get back to base from the fiance's place.



Eventually I am going to probably swap to a motorcraft 2150 or 2100 with 1.08 venturi's and do the HEI distributor swap. But I don't understand why I am having issues when I am extremely mechanically inclined (went to automotive college, and it was my career for years until I joined the Army).


Thank you for your help.

Jeff

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Old 05-28-2013, 02:51 AM   #2
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Sounds like the idle pickup tubes are dirty causing a rich condition. It's a common issue with the carter BBD.

Check the venturis. They should not be dripping fuel at idle, and should mist finely when you give it throttle. Any indications of dripping fuel means there's something impeding the flow. Would be a good reason to tear the carb down and check/clean it.

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Old 05-28-2013, 03:52 AM   #3
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Double check your fuel filter is lined up properly.. Mine had somehow managed to twist itself around so the vent outlet and the fuel outlet were pretty much horizonal to the ground... I had that happen and was having the exact same problem (dying when pressing in the clutch or just a SUPER low idle).

ALSO - when you removed the vac lines from your air cleaner box - there's vac. actuated "door" that needs to be propped open. I tore the round guy closest to the filter housing (actuates the "door") completely off exposing the lever and then zip-tied the lever to the round guy farthest from the filter housing... I don't THINK this is causing your problem - but it's still something you should be aware of and fix for better air flow...
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:03 AM   #4
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I'll check the fuel filter today, as I am recalling that they are both horizontal to the ground.

I will also check to see if the carb is dripping above idle.

Keymo, I tied that flapper open yesterday when I was playing with the air cleaner. Lol
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:31 AM   #5
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Ok, first thing I did this morning was turn the fuel filter vent from being horizontal to vertical.

Then started it, let it warm up, drove it around, adjusted the idle back down, drove it around a little bit more.

Idle is now between 700-850rpm, and currently, no more dying when braking. Hopefully that will fix the issue. The filter itself looks pretty new judging by the sticker on it and how clean it is. The hoses on the other hand seem questionable. So they will get replaced this week.

Norubicon: I took off the air cleaner assembly, looked in the carb, at idle seems mostly like a fine mist with an occasional drip every few seconds or so. Once I hold throttle lever down, and rev it and hold it to about 1600rpm or so all I see is fuel mist.

I still have a slight idle misfire, so obviously I still want to figure out that issue. I will be replacing the plug wires for sure since apart from the coil and distributor everything else is new but those.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:16 AM   #6
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Update: one other issue fixed, figured out that I had the distributor vacuum advance tied into manifold vacuum instead of ported.

Reconnected it to ported on the valve cover side of the carb. Pulled advance hose off, plugged it Re set idle, verified timing at 8*btdc. Idle at 8-850rpm.
Still have amisfire.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:58 PM   #7
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Stopped at the O'Reilly today after work in search of a fuel filter, a headlight, and plug wires. Decided to pop off the distributor cap and check out the rotor.

The rotor didn't look too old, but not new. And it smelled like really hot electrics. Then there was also these burned spots on the top tab. The pickup down in the distributor seemed to have been replaced somewhat recently too.

Here is the old vs new. Installed it, seems to run a smidgeon better but still has the misfire...
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:56 PM   #8
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First, sorry if you'd mentioned before that you had tied the air door open... I must've missed it if you said you did...

The fuel filter orientation probably helped a lot with the dieing when coming to a stop - I know it's helped me A LOT - but I'm still experiencing the same thing as you with the occasional misfire (burp/pop) at idle. I would suggest looking into the "Team Rush" upgrade as well in addition to your nutter. It'll help spread the arc for the spark and MIGHT help in your misfire situation (you can read into the science behind it for yourself when you research it). My cap is getting a little old (a year to couple years now) and the internal terminals were looking a little nasty last time I checked - which might by MY problem.

You MIGHT also look into adjusting your spark advance (the timing at the distributor) a little more. I THINK that's something I need to look into for myself after I installed the "Upgraded MSD Blaster - ford style" coil as that's when MY misfire situation seemed to have started (I also have my plugs gapped a little) - and I had retarded the timing down to 8 DBTC... Recently, I've READ that people seem to be getting optimum results with the Nutter at around 10-12 rather than the suggested 8degrees...

Again - Just a few suggestions!
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:57 PM   #9
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Newest update:

Replaced plug wires, rotor, and fuel filter, with new hoses.

Still have misfire at idle.

Seemed to have plenty of fuel pressure by it shooting out over the grille when I took off the fuel line from the filter.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:06 PM   #10
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Thank you Keymo, I will go and adjust it to 10-12* BTDC and see what happens.

If that doesn't solve it. I am going to order the HEI distributor and wires tomorrow from CRT: Store

I've been reading on both the Team Rush and the HEI swap. I think that the HEI will be the way to go.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:56 PM   #11
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Adjusted the timing from 8* to 12*, runs a HELL of a lot better when driving, but still have the misfire at idle. Once I start from a stop, and give her a little bit of gas to get off idle, it runs pretty smooth. It doesn't really buck or spit. Although I just notice a slight misfire while driving. Nothing horrible.

However, the Idle quality just sucks. I'm ordering the CRT HEI now. Hopefully it will be here in a few days.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:03 PM   #12
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I was never able to get the stock carb to run right. Are you sure there are no vacumm leaks? Have you checked the base of the carb where it sits on the manifold? I replaced the carb with the 2150 motorcraft from ehrmannmp on eBay. With the HEI you toss the old coil, dizzy and the ignition module, you will notice it starts great.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:15 PM   #13
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I haven't checked the base of the carb. But I will try tomorrow. I don't have my vacuum gauge or any spray with me here back on base though. :/
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indirocz28 View Post
Adjusted the timing from 8* to 12*, runs a HELL of a lot better when driving, but still have the misfire at idle. Once I start from a stop, and give her a little bit of gas to get off idle, it runs pretty smooth. It doesn't really buck or spit. Although I just notice a slight misfire while driving. Nothing horrible.

However, the Idle quality just sucks. I'm ordering the CRT HEI now. Hopefully it will be here in a few days.
WOOHOO! Glad she's performing better at least!

x2 on checking for the vac leaks - but personally, I haven't been able to find any on my carb. or any of my remaining vac lines... Today I adjusted the idle screws a little higher and noticed she seemed to want to idle better but I still had the burping at stoplights. Granted - she's always done this since the rebuild (10-ish years) and my lack of exhaust components MIGHT play a factor on how the exhaust comes out (thought it seems to happen more often than before)... Straight pipe...
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:13 AM   #15
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Well, I ordered new exhaust stuff since my cat to tail pipe is rusted. That will hopefully be here soon.

I do not hear anything extra sucking in my engine anymore. I know that all of the 3 vacuum lines I'm using have no leaks. I've looked all over the carb at the gaskets and things and it LOOKS good, but I am not sure if it actually IS good. Like I said though, I don't hear anything sucking, nor do I feel any suction when running my finger around it.
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:37 AM   #16
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You won't be able to detect a small vacuum leak by ear or feel. Grab a can of carb cleaner (automotive electronics cleaner is better though as it is plastic/rubber friendly and works just the same), and spray in short bursts around the gaskets of the carb, vacuum lines, and the intake manifold. Increase in idle speed indicates a vacuum leak at the spot you sprayed. Test and retest any spots that seem to have a response to the cleaner spray, to verify the change in idle. Consistent response indicates that you've found a vac leak.

Also, make sure your plug wires are firmly secured to the distributor and plugs as well. I had a misfire once due to a wire not fully locked onto a plug.
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
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You won't be able to detect a small vacuum leak by ear or feel. Grab a can of carb cleaner (automotive electronics cleaner is better though as it is plastic/rubber friendly and works just the same), and spray in short bursts around the gaskets of the carb, vacuum lines, and the intake manifold. Increase in idle speed indicates a vacuum leak at the spot you sprayed. Test and retest any spots that seem to have a response to the cleaner spray, to verify the change in idle. Consistent response indicates that you've found a vac leak.

Also, make sure your plug wires are firmly secured to the distributor and plugs as well. I had a misfire once due to a wire not fully locked onto a plug.

good tips
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
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You won't be able to detect a small vacuum leak by ear or feel. Grab a can of carb cleaner (automotive electronics cleaner is better though as it is plastic/rubber friendly and works just the same), and spray in short bursts around the gaskets of the carb, vacuum lines, and the intake manifold. Increase in idle speed indicates a vacuum leak at the spot you sprayed. Test and retest any spots that seem to have a response to the cleaner spray, to verify the change in idle. Consistent response indicates that you've found a vac leak.

Also, make sure your plug wires are firmly secured to the distributor and plugs as well. I had a misfire once due to a wire not fully locked onto a plug.

I am very well aware of this. As I previously posted I currently do not have any spray here on base.
I will perhaps go get some later and see if I can "detect" anything.

Also, the plug wires are very firmly seated on both the distributor and plugs. I've checked that a few times, especially since I put the new ones on last night.

Thank you for the "tips" though.

While driving it around for the past 3 hours while running errands I had to adjust the idle once it warmed up. It ran probably the best it has run yet, until about 3 miles ago. I was driving just fine coming back through the gate on base and got to the stop light just inside, and boom, started idling low again and wanting to die. Fuel filter is still in correct position, timing has not changed from setting it yesterday evening.

FML....
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:07 PM   #19
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Just to clarify, there was no actual "boom". lol
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Old 05-29-2013, 03:36 PM   #20
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Here you go! I think I figured it out!!

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Old 05-29-2013, 11:29 PM   #21
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Here you go! I think I figured it out!!

God d@mn stepper motor...

Glad you got her figured out!

Luckily I didn't have to deal with that when I did mine - my carb is pre-emissions (but the PO still had everything else set up like stock ).
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:23 AM   #22
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Wellllll shit.....

Went to start it up this morning to go to work, and it didn't want to idle for anything.
I adjusted the cold idle screw (where the little black cam piece pushes it back) to make sure it wasn't too tight or too loose, and got it to idle some what. It sure didn't want to though.

Once it warmed up I had to re-adjust my idle back to 8-900 or so because even though it ran fine yesterday afternoon, it was popping and running like crap and wouldn't idle above 500.

When will it end?

I had my money refunded on my CRT HEI distributor, as they said they were out of parts until mid June. SO that isn't happening soon.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:46 AM   #23
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Sorry about all your problems, I think that carb is just garbage
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:35 PM   #24
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When will it end?
Have you "detected" any vacuum leaks using the "tips" I posted?
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:42 PM   #25
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Have you "detected" any vacuum leaks using the "tips" I posted?
Lol! I'm going to pick up my exhaust parts this afternoon. I will grab some contact or carb cleaner then.


The carb seems to work fine. Tubes aren't plugged up or anything. And its pretty clean in the throttle body. I don't see any dripping of gas, only very fine mist, and at idle I don't really see any mist.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:51 PM   #26
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Little bit more info:

I got some carb cleaner spray at the part store. But before I left, I randomly pulled some plugs and look at this:



After I filmed that, put the plugs back in, and it fired right up,let it warm up on its own, no extra throttle needed, and ran fine the 8 miles to the store, then to the shop where I was going to do my exhaust but the welder wasn't there today. Then back to the other side of base, picked up my buddy, went to get some food, and then it started acting up again, wanting to idle really low and run like crap.

After it was good and warmed up, while I was waiting for my buddy to come out, I sprayed it all over the intake manifold 1 runner at a time top and bottom and sides as best I could, then around the base of the carb all the way around, around the intake where the EGR bolts to etc. Across vacuum fittings and hoses, around the brake booster. No leaks found that way.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:33 PM   #27
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Hmmm... This sucks - but you may have some bad valve guide seals... I've READ before that a bad valve guide seal can allow some extra oil to seep through from the valve cover and into the combustion chamber - which could possibly be causing the early blackening and on the combustion side...

Just spit ballin' whith this: It could also explain why it's running good for a while and the longer it runs the more oil is slowly seeping in and could be causing it to run crappier with time.

You should try to do a compression test as well to make sure that everything in there is working properly. Leaking valve guide seals MIGHT not show in the compression test - but it can give you an idea if there's anything else funky going on in there that might be adding to the problem before you tear off the valve cover... I actually just picked up a compression gauge the other day and will be doing that to my YJ as well as I've been having, what sounds like, some intense valve tapping...



On a semi-unrelated note - I read something last night about how, after doing the Nutter bypass, it's best to install a "pre-smog" distributor or modifying the internals of your distributor for better power and MPG. And something about adding a dedicated ground near the ICM. Something about ONLY having the Distributor ground can cause an intermittent loss of ignition signal (which COULD be a factor in our popping/burping)... I'm still fuzzy on it. Just something you might want to look into - I know I'll be researching that tonight and/or tomorrow!!
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Old 05-31-2013, 12:25 AM   #28
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I found what I was reading last night that tipped me off for the Distributor tuning and the dedicated ground... IT was on JF - posted by "Old4X"

Quote:
Your only ground for the electronic ignition goes across the distributor hold down clamp and bolt. On a greasy engine , esp after adjusting the timing, the ground could be intermittent. It can cause temporary loss of ignition signal.

There are 3 wires coming out of the dizzy body, 2 of these you used for the Nutter. The third is a black wire, it is the ground for the ICM (not the dizzy, it doesn't need a ground). Follow that black wire back to the ICM and splice in another wire. Run this extra wire to a good, clean, solid ground. You can leave the other hooked up as well.

The OEM dizzy your Jeep came with had it's max ignition advance controlled by the on-board computer. You disabled this with the nutter. So, now you need a way to return that functionality. By using a pre-smog Duraspark dizzy (78 - 83 on the Jeep/AMC 258) you will again have full ignition advance returned.

Or you can take your dizzy apart and mod the mechanical advance plate to allow that much advance. All it takes is a file or a dremel. Last week someone posted pics on how to do this mod. (sorry, don't have the link).

Once this is done, you can fine tune your vac advance diaphragm. That is done with a 1/8 inch allen wrench through the snout of the vac advance module. Same vac module on pre and post smog dizzy, so no need to replace.
Here's some of the Distributor tuning info Old4X was refering to. It took me a bit to kind - constantly tweaking google searches - so I figured I'd try and make it easier on you. Though the whole process looks kind of daunting... Might just be easier to buy a pre-smog distributor than going through all of this.

Prep for TeamRush 258 - Advance Curve Kit - JeepForum.com
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:54 AM   #29
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Hmmm... This sucks - but you may have some bad valve guide seals... I've READ before that a bad valve guide seal can allow some extra oil to seep through from the valve cover and into the combustion chamber - which could possibly be causing the early blackening and on the combustion side...

Just spit ballin' whith this: It could also explain why it's running good for a while and the longer it runs the more oil is slowly seeping in and could be causing it to run crappier with time.

You should try to do a compression test as well to make sure that everything in there is working properly. Leaking valve guide seals MIGHT not show in the compression test - but it can give you an idea if there's anything else funky going on in there that might be adding to the problem before you tear off the valve cover... I actually just picked up a compression gauge the other day and will be doing that to my YJ as well as I've been having, what sounds like, some intense valve tapping...



On a semi-unrelated note - I read something last night about how, after doing the Nutter bypass, it's best to install a "pre-smog" distributor or modifying the internals of your distributor for better power and MPG. And something about adding a dedicated ground near the ICM. Something about ONLY having the Distributor ground can cause an intermittent loss of ignition signal (which COULD be a factor in our popping/burping)... I'm still fuzzy on it. Just something you might want to look into - I know I'll be researching that tonight and/or tomorrow!!
Normally I might agree with the oil theory, but it isn't oil in this case. There is no oil on the threads, or anything extra around the plugs. Probably tomorrow I'll grab my bore scope, (since I'm going home for the weekend) and stick it inside my chambers and see what they look like.

Also, I think I'll just get the HEI dizzy from CRT performance in mid June when their parts come in.

I have a couple of issues, 1 is that the carb cannot make up its mind on running. I left its adjustments alone this morning, and it hardly wanted to start up "cold" (75* F here at 5:45am). I held the rev's to about 11-1200 for 3-5 mins waiting for it to "warm up" and then finally it decided to idle on its own, but once again, low idle barely running, at 500rpm. When yesterday afternoon it was fine at 8-900ish on its own.

2. The distributor misfire, which I think could be cleared up by going to the Team Rush upgrade, or the HEI distributor.


I am going to fill the bowl vents with carb cleaner and let it run through there for a few mins after while.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:03 AM   #30
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Okay, so yesterday afternoon I sprayed all around the carb and manifold etc listening for leaks. Then today just after 9 the Jeep didn't want to run at all.
So I got it into a parking lot since it kept stalling on me.

Started spraying carb cleaner into the fuel bowl vent tubes, and what do you know, it started leaking out of the throttle shaft seal right behind the spring!

Started spraying around it and could hear the engine revving/idling up.



I ordered a carburetor rebuild kit from Advance. That will be my tonight/saturday project it looks like.

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