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Old 04-16-2013, 06:49 AM   #31
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Nice. I have a standard length because it was free, but I have a few inches less height than you are seeing at the t case. If I do it right about 6. That's why I am interested in the angles on your shaft. I am gona get my x member into place and guestimate where my pinion will be and take my t case and estimated pinion angles, figure out my expected DS angle at those points, and figure out if I need to go with a SS now and get a longer DS or if it will work, before I purchase a shaft.

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Old 04-16-2013, 07:50 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcal_Chris View Post

You dont have a flat belly though do you?

That means his transfer case is almost 4 inches higher than yours in the frame. Its totally different.
It is not that different. Since my bellhouse is 2" longer it should be roughly the same angle as 4" higher. Although I am no geometry expert, I would bet while he needs a longer shaft, my the angle is comparable.

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Old 04-16-2013, 08:19 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by OverkillYJ View Post
It is not that different. Since my bellhouse is 2" longer it should be roughly the same angle as 4" higher. Although I am no geometry expert, I would bet while he needs a longer shaft, my the angle is comparable.
These are in no way accurate measurements, but illustrate the point.

If your t case output is 22inches from pinion, and your pinion is 15inches below the output, (Think of a triangle) That puts your driveshaft at a 34.29 deg angle. thats a 26.63in long (driveshaft)


Now, If his t case output is 20 inches from pinion (no ax15) , but his pinion is 19 inches below the output (tummy tuck) that puts his driveshaft at a 43.53 deg angle. thats a 27.59in long (driveshaft)
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:35 AM   #34
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You switched the numbers for the tcase, his should be 2 inches less since his Bellhousing is longer, but your right his DS is still at more of an angle. For 2 inches of length to make the same angle change as 4 inches of height. The driveshaft would have to drop twice as far as the distance from the tcase to the pinion (horizontal vector). Which it does not. It's closer to a 1:1 I would bet.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:58 AM   #35
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Haha good catch lol. Here is the right numbers

18 rom pinion to t case. Pinion 15 below t case. 23.43in long driveshaft. And 39.81 deg driveshaft.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:21 AM   #36
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And assuming the T case output is 8 (which is about as much as it will get) then the angle is 31 degrees... which is just over the max angle of a double cardan joint with 1310s. Good thing those aren't the real numbers, lol.

I think the tcase would be more like 23 from the ground (20 inch belly is the standard with a flat belly 2-3 inches of lift and 35s. and the pinion is a few inches above the center line of axle, so say 18? thats only 4 inches of drop, which makes more sense with the pinion turned up. Even if it was 17, thats only 6 inches down over like 20 inches (3 inch lift tj with standard sye is around 16.5) So the angle is more like 17.5 at the CV and a DS length of 20.9ish. Which is all acceptable.

That's about as close as we can guess without having real measurements.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:15 AM   #37
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HA HA HA HA. The real problem comes when driving it to see if vibes are gone. Nothing will be accurate under power until that traction bar is in. That cant be welded in until the angles are correct for an SOA with a traction bar as opposed to an SOA without a traction bar. Once the TC is in the correct position it seems the best way to check would be to set the pinion angle 5-6 degrees low and take it for a test drive. If that is good, then raise the pinion 3 degrees and weld in the traction bar and all should be good.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:29 AM   #38
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What's so funny?

That's all fine and good - basic pinion angle and driveshaft setup. But if the angle is still too steep for the double cardan joint being used, it doesn't matter. From the looks of his pictures his pinion angle is pretty close 6 degrees low already. Maybe a bit more. So a little adjustment should get him near that.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:32 AM   #39
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You guys are over complicating this. That is what is so funny. It is as simple as the max angle being 30 degrees for a CV shaft and needing to be under that. Then set the pinion angle and it is good to go. Sounds like the belly up skid was too much and it is as simple as that. It just needs to be brought down an inch or so. Either way the smaller the angle the longer they last. Just need to find a happy middle. Might be a better idea to pull the 8.8 back 1". Then the belly up would probably be able to stay.

Pushing the driveshaft to the maximum limits is still not a great idea though. Just because you can doesnt mean you should. I am not happy with how steep mine is which is why I said I have considered a 1" engine lift since I refuse to drop my TC. I killed two CV shafts because of it. This 3rd one is lasting the longest, but I have only been running it for about 4-5 months now.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:44 PM   #40
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If anyone should be laughing its us at you lol. First you said he doesnt need a trans case drop and it will be fine, but now you say he needs a transfer case drop.


All I can say is what I said before. I JUST did this and the angles are too steep and the cv binds almost at ride height. Forget about flexing it. Has nothing to do with a traction bar or any other hooplah. Either the case comes down or the axle goes back. I chose the axle going back. I dont think there is anything else to discuss about it.
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:05 PM   #41
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If you get it riding all nice without the traction bar, and then in stall the traction bar it will be like driving a giant vibrator down the street. If you do that without the traction bar and then install the traction bar you will trash the driveshaft since the traction bar will keep the pinion a few degrees too low.

It took me about 30 min to set the angle on my driveshaft. I checked the angle using a string, then adjusted the pinion so it was 3 degrees low and tacked the perches in place. I pulled out the rear, welded them up the rest of the way and welded on the mount for my traction bar. Installed the rear, traction bar, and driveshaft. I have never had a vibration. The angle is steep, but it is within the range of what it can handle.

This is not rocket science. It sounds like the position of the TC Yoke was not checked before making the raised skid permanent. If it was it seems pulling the rear back an inch would have been an obvious fix. This is not hard.
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:42 PM   #42
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First of all I didn't complicate anything. Second of all where are you getting under 30 degrees for a 1310 double cardan joint? That is the angle with a high clearance specialty joint, and the angles can be different based on manufacturer of the DS. Usually it's more like 20. Of course it is simple. I did however as him for angle info on his DS because I want to know what the operating angles are like on the Tattons shaft. That is non of your business.

You are the one who said that your angle is more than his because you have a 2 inch longer bell housing, compared to his 4 inch higher belly and trans mounting. Our discussion simply evolved from your claim, because it was wrong. If you posted crap like that on Pirate people would tear you apart. It's simple math.

I don't really think this needs discussed anymore. Everyone in this thread understands how to set a pinion angle.
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Old 04-16-2013, 03:10 PM   #43
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No, I said it is roughly the same, which it is. It is not that large of a difference. As far as a Tatton's Shaft, there is nothing special about a Tatton's shaft versus others. Its like arguing Ford VS Chevy. Its not like they are a manufacturer of the parts. They use Spicer parts like any other decent driveline shop.

Here is a pic of my driveline angle. No vibes, and it handles a hell of a lot of abuse if you cant tell from the underside of my Jeep (as long as I dont submerge it and not grease it). It actually does clean up real nice, but this is the only pic I got.

From these pics I would say they are not that far off. Under power my angle points directly at the yoke. Standing still it looks like ****.
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Old 04-16-2013, 03:28 PM   #44
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Congrats. Actually lots of big name shaft makers make shafts very differently if you look into them. Most companies like Tatton's do use Spicer parts and so there isn't a lot a variance, but there isn't a lot of info out there on a concrete maximum operating angle on the DC joint, which is why I asked Denis to check. Again, that has nothing to do with you. First of all, neither of you took a picture of the angle across the jeep. You're pictures are either angled up or down, so you can't accurately assess or compare the angles from your pictures. There is a huge different between 2 and 4 inches, especially in two different vectors. You can think whatever you want, but it doesn't make you right.

Why don't you both measure your angles and post them.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:33 AM   #45
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Hey guys - Good follow up! I'll try to get those measurements tonight.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:28 AM   #46
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Sounds good man I will try to check back later.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:42 AM   #47
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Here's what I got:

Before t-case drop and motor mount lift
8.8 Yoke angle (degrees): 22 degrees
Driveshaft angle (degrees): 36 degrees
Height to center of 8.8 yoke: 20.25”
Height to skid plate (flat belly): 27.25”
Height to center of SYE: 34.25”
Length of driveshaft (yoke center to yoke center): 25.5”
Horizontal Distance (Axle yoke center to skid plate): 24”
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:57 AM   #48
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Can you get the angle of the tcase output, that will tell you what angle your cv is actually functioning at. Other than that yeah your pinion needs turned up a little. If your adding the traction bar you'll wana end up with the pinion about 3-4 less than the drive shaft. Without it about 6 less that. Your at 14 now which is probably your big issue. You can't just take your driveshaft now an subtract the number because as you move the pinion, the driveshaft angle will change as well.
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:12 AM   #49
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Can you get the angle of the tcase output, that will tell you what angle your cv is actually functioning at. Other than that yeah your pinion needs turned up a little. If your adding the traction bar you'll wana end up with the pinion about 3-4 less than the drive shaft. Without it about 6 less that. Your at 14 now which is probably your big issue. You can't just take your driveshaft now an subtract the number because as you move the pinion, the driveshaft angle will change as well.
The t-case angle is near flat currently. Showing 4 degrees down.

Good advice on the traction bar. Once I put in the motor mount lift, drop this t-case a bit and make some other adjustments, I'll get a new set of measurements.
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:29 AM   #50
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Sounds good. That means the CV is at 32, which is pretty bad. Turning the pinion up by 10 or so (roughly) will prob bring the DS to more like 30, so a 26 CV which I have actually heard of. Really I am just throwing numbers at this point, its some harder math to figure it out which I don't really want to do. lol. I think it should fix your issue. You may even want to try setting it up without the tcase drop first incase you can get away without it. There is a lot of pinion adjustment left for you so you may not.

Good deal.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:34 AM   #51
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Spent all weekend making adjustments to this and I'm still binding up. Put in a 1" Motor Mount Lift and put in a 1" T-Case Drop. That helped but the angle, even with the CV, is still pretty high. I'll get some measurements tonight when it stops raining.

Since this hasn't worked, I'm going to move my axle back one notch this weekend (should gain 1" back) and see if that helps. Ultimately, I see a gas tank move and XJ spring conversion in my future.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:12 AM   #52
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That's rough but might be what you need. Binding at right height? Have you considered going with a high angle DS instead of the one you have? Might be cheaper than everything else you have to end up doing.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #53
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Have you considered going with a high angle DS instead of the one you have?
That's what this one is. I got both a high angle driveshaft and a high angle SYE to go with it.

I don't get why this one is such a bear. I have a friend with an almost identical setup (his is an AA SYE instead of a JB). He has the same skidplate, some motor/trans/xcase, slightly bigger axle (D60) and his works without binding. I'll keep working at it.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:10 AM   #54
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Okay that seriously makes no sense now... It doesn't have a blown u joint in it or something simple?

So you turned the pinion up some. Plus the mml should have gotten you from 32 to mid/upper 20s. Which should be plenty for a high angle shaft... You could always go to a bigger joint shaft with more clearance but that might get annoying to make work.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:24 AM   #55
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Okay that seriously makes no sense now... It doesn't have a blown u joint in it or something simple?
Brand new spicer u-joints. Like, factory sealed when I put them in last week. Greased them all up, greased up the shaft. Everything should have plenty of play/grease.

I'll swap some new ones in again just to be sure, but I'm confident that these are perfectly fine.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:37 AM   #56
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I trust you just trying to think of every possible issue before you spend more money. Maybe after you measure the angles you can continue to drop the case until they are fixed. Also see if you can find the expected max joint angle for you shaft. Maybe shoot the manufacturer an email I guess it's possible they somehow screwed up the shaft if its binding that bad and is a high clearance. What brand is it? Some if the companies clearance the warbler(?) area too much and they end up really bad, or so I have read.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:40 AM   #57
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It's a Curtis Tatton shaft. I'll call him today to see if he has any ideas.

With the skid plate dropped about 3", I was able to get it to not bind. That seems like a really big drop (back to stop skid height, basically).
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1991 YJ 99 Vortec 5.7L, SM465, NP205, 14 Bolt Rear, Dana 60 Front, 5.13 Gears, Detroit Lockers, 395/85R20 46" Michelin XML tires on 20" XD Wheels, Cherokee Offset Springs (10" front to back stretch total), Bilstein 5150s, 1in. BL, custom cage, Warn M8000, Double D Dash/OHC, 4Low Front Stinger Bumper, DirtWorx Rear Bumper WTC, Tube Fenders, Comp Cut, 1 Ton HD Kingpin High Steering and PAID FOR.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:43 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denisbaldwin View Post
It's a Curtis Tatton shaft. I'll call him today to see if he has any ideas.

With the skid plate dropped about 3", I was able to get it to not bind. That seems like a really big drop (back to stop skid height, basically).
Yeah way too much especially considering you have a ss sye and high clearance shaft... Yeah give him a call maybe he can tell us something we didn't think about.
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:04 AM   #59
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The official word from Tatton: Angle should be 18 to 20 degrees and flex to 27 degrees.

The good news is that it's no longer binding. I moved the axle back one notch and things turn freely now at both ride height and full compression. At full droop, there's still a bit of binding. Atleast it's driveable now.

I'll post all of my numbers later this week so everyone can see how much was moved.

A friend of mine and I are going to do some experiments, getting the gas tank moved up into the floor pan now that my back seat is out for good. I think we're going to cut out where the tank is, move it up 6" (so the bottom of the tank lines up with the bottom of the frame, cage in a heavy duty skid plate and build a box around the tank so it's encased (and out of the way of the axle).

Once I'm confident that the fuel tank is clear, I'll do the XJ springs in the back and move the axle back 5". That should fix any remaining issues.
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:12 AM   #60
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Sounds good to me. I know a guy who did what you are about to do with the gas tank, and he said after he wishes he would have just gone with a fuel cell setup. I still think it's a good idea as it retains most of your room in the back, but just something to think of as you can't really uncut your tub.

Glad you got rid of your binding issue, for the most part, and have a solution on the way. That sounds about right as far as what Tatton said about the angle.

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