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Old 10-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #1
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Exclamation HELP!!!! I'm afraid the end is near:(

After all the other messes I've gone through with my 92, I replaced my entire cooling system today. $200 for a radiator, water pump, water outlet and a couple gaskets. I put them all on, hoping to fix my overheating problem, but no dice. Here is what happens:

I start it cold, it runs fine. As the engine heats, the temp gauge doesn't hardly get above 130 and then goes back down. Its not the thermostat because I replaced it first. Tested it in boiling water last night and it opens up and closes back. It starts idling very rough and missing wen it gets hot and. The heat does not work, its actually blowing out cold air and I have no A/C. I can tell the engine is overheating because it is super hot and obviously causing it to run rough, yet the temp gauge barely moves. I ran it without the cap for a minute to try and burp it, and coolant moves through the radiator but still doesn't cool the engine or make the gauge work.

I'm running out of ideas, money and time here and I just need to get this thing taken care of. Could this be a head gasket issue or what?

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Old 10-15-2013, 04:41 PM   #2
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A couple of things, when posting for advice always include year and engine. I checked your profile and found out it is a 2.5L. Might want to add it to your signature.

It was a good idea to run the engine with the cap off and testing the thermostat.

1st. When you had the cap off and watching the water circulate, did you have your
heater on high. The temp not the fan? If not then you could still have air in your
lines/heater core.

2nd. Have you checked to see if it throwing any codes. If it is this can help narrow
down the causes.

3rd. What degree thermosat did you put in? Should have been a 195.

I am leaning toward a CTS (coolant temperature sensor). Need to check it. It can cause the engine to run horribly.

If the water is circulating and the theromostat is opening and closing, I don't think it is overheating. May want to check actual water temp to be sure.

Thats all I can come up with to start with. Check the things above and get back to us. If they don't fix the problem we will look at other things, once we eliminate others.

Start with the cheap easy stuff first and work your way up.

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Old 10-15-2013, 05:03 PM   #3
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How long does it take for it to start running bad? I've ran a 2.5 dang near out of water due to a busted hose on the trail & it just kept going. I didn't notice it till I just happened to look down at the gauge. Never acted like anything was wrong. It got plenty hot, but never missed a lick.

I agree with CMike, it sounds like an sensor/computer issue. It would take it a long time to overheat to the point that it's running like crap & once you get to that point, the head is probably toast anyway.

Sounds like an open loop/ closed loop pcm issue to me.

That's a good lookin old YJ you have there. Don't get discouraged with it. It has to be something simple.
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Old 10-15-2013, 05:18 PM   #4
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Have you tried squeezing the return line? Also, have you rechecked the coolant level in the radiator? Don't despair we'll help you out.
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Old 10-15-2013, 05:51 PM   #5
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Thanks for the responses! I'll address each of you here:

CMike: I did run it with both the heater on and the heater off. I turned the fan up to high and switched it all the way to warm, nothing still. Also, we're a negative on the codes. I read a 12-33-55 which is standard for a YJ. I got a 195* thermostat and its identical to the one I replaced. As I said, I know its working because water is getting to the radiator when its running. I also tested the T-stat last night and it opened and closed as it should.

W5KVV: I takes it about 10 or 15 minutes, depending on if I let it idle or drive it around. Same amount of time it would take for the engine to heat up. My fear is that the head IS toast because my oil does look a little milky. The other problem is that the temp gauge doesn't work so I cannot see if its overheating. It's acting just like it did before I replaced the T stat. I replaced the T-stat and it finally read up to about 210, but now it won't even read past 130.

Mega: I sqeezed all the lines to feel for pressure, it seems like the coolant is circulating, but I'm still worried that its getting hot. When I had the cap off, the radiator level looked good.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:06 PM   #6
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Two things come to mind, when you replaced the t-stat did you replace it with a FAIL-SAFE t-stat? If so this is most likely the reason your temp won't get above 130. Jeeps run at around 210 degree and a FAIL-SAFE t-stat locks open at around 200 degrees, been there and done that!! Another thing comes to mind is t-stats have been known to be bad right out of the box( had one that I put in and it fell apart 10 mins after I started my jeep to finish filling up coolant) so this is a possibility.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:26 PM   #7
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Have you tried running the engine, shutting it off then leaving the key on the on position then watching the gauge to see if the temp goes up on the gauge? It should go up as the coolant stop circulating. It could help you determine if it is the coolant temp sensor or the engine temp sensor.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:31 PM   #8
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If this was my ride I would (1) replace the thermostat again with another one that has the burp hole on the flange (2) I would run water through the heater core to eliminate the possibility of any blockage and (3) I would change the oil because I would want to isolate the 'milky' condition you described. That will give you a bunch of information to process and help with the diagnosis.
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:49 PM   #9
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Hmm. Sounds like you could have a coolant ingestion issue if you say the oil is milky.

I would do as 87 Florida YJ mentioned. After you do that, start it up, let it warm up. When it starts running bad go back to the tailpipe & put your hand at the end of it. Get some exhaust on your hand & smell it. If it has even the slightest hint of antifreeze, you have a cracked head or headgasket & coolant is getting into the combustion chamber.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:39 AM   #10
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Bump.

Let us know how this plays out for you
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrider94 View Post
Two things come to mind, when you replaced the t-stat did you replace it with a FAIL-SAFE t-stat? If so this is most likely the reason your temp won't get above 130. Jeeps run at around 210 degree and a FAIL-SAFE t-stat locks open at around 200 degrees, been there and done that!! Another thing comes to mind is t-stats have been known to be bad right out of the box( had one that I put in and it fell apart 10 mins after I started my jeep to finish filling up coolant) so this is a possibility.
Whatever T-stat I got was the EXACT same as the one I was replacing. They just gave it to me at autozone. haha As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure the Tstat works because I took it out again just two nights ago and tested it in boiling water. It opened right up and then closed back as soon as I removed it.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:23 AM   #12
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Mega: When I shut the key off the thermostat stats where its at until it eventually goes back down to zero. It won't go up no matter what I do.

87 Florida and W5KVV: Thanks a lot guys. I have run water through the heater core, but not with much pressure, but I still got it trough. I guess I will replace the T-stat and get the oil changed again.

Thanks again for everybody's help, If I can pull the Jeep out of this I will be one happy, and extremely grateful man!
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:46 PM   #13
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Is your fan clutch good, maybe bad if your overheating faster idling than when driving
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:36 PM   #14
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Is there a way to test my fan clutch? I might take it to my mechanic buddy tomorrow and let him look at it. Its just been a mess. I've rebuilt basically the whole fuel system, ignition system and cooling system. A few hundred dollars, aching muscles, wasted days and busted knuckles later and I'm still not on the road. I'm sure you guys have been through a patch like this. Thanks for the support haha
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:28 PM   #15
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Yeah when it is cold it should free wheel. When it is hit it should lock up and turn IIRC. Put it in Google that is where i am headed.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:53 PM   #16
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Old 11-07-2013, 11:55 AM   #17
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I finally took it to my mechanic at S&S and it turns out its the ECM. Now he's quoting from the dealer and telling me it'll be anywhere from $550-$800. Has anybody replaced an ECM by themselves?
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Old 11-07-2013, 12:35 PM   #18
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That's crazy! The ECM in my Dodge fried the ignition driver last year & was dead in the water. I found a EMC from a local salvage for $125. Swapped it in & it busted right off. I should mention the truck ran like crap for the first ten min. or so untill the new ECM "learned" my truck (No cats, bigger cam, injectors, etc). Once it cleared up, I installed my tune & all was back to normal.

You'll need to find one from the same power train. It helps if you find one from the same year vehicle. Mine came out of a '00 Ram, my truck is a '01 but the drive train was the same & it worked.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:29 PM   #19
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I was thinking about getting one from Autozone or Oreilly, they go for about $230 but have a $80 core and advertise that its an OEM part that can be pre-tuned to work with my exact model. I've gotten all my replacements from those places lately and they've all been reliable, think a ECM would work too?
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:40 PM   #20
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I figure it will be just fine. I believe they use your VIN number to program the new computer. Basically, you go in, pay for the computer, they call their supplier & give them your VIN, they send you the computer.

I went the cheap route. A friend of mine has swapped CPUs numerous times, so I was familiar with what I needed. Pretty simple really. It's all plug-&-play.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:44 PM   #21
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Yeah I trust them with parts pretty well. And they offer pretty solid warranties to just in case. I have the old one off expect the wiring harness as I mentioned, how does it come off? I can attach a pic real quick if you'd like to see it.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:52 PM   #22
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Nevermind, I popped it out, I just wasn't pulling it evenly and it wouldn't slide out, but it is now off, time to order a new one I guess!
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:37 PM   #23
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Just got back from autozone andmy new ECM will be here Saturday! Hopefully I'll pop it on an get some good pictures of some good weekend Jeepin'! Thanks again for all the help fellas, I'll post a final update when it's all done.
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Old 11-08-2013, 08:25 AM   #24
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Good deal! Imho you still need to address the milky oil. Could just need a new PCv.
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Old 11-09-2013, 03:26 PM   #25
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Welp...the problem continues...even worse. Put the new ECM on and now I can't even start it because its acting like its out of fuel. It started fine at first, and I ran it down to the gas station and put 5 gallons in, then went on a drive. The miss was there until eventually it just cut out altogether and is now acting like its out of fuel (backfiring, not revving past 1500, shaking, dying choking out). I've already replaced most of the fuel system, and the pressure at the rail is good. My ONLY guesses now are either a vacuum line or injectors. What are the symptoms of bad injectors? I'm really getting tired of all this haha
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:27 AM   #26
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sounds like you got a bad ecm.
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:24 PM   #27
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I did not read this whole thread, but what comes to mind, from personal experiance, you have AIR in your cooling system, you need to get all that out.

Remember, the sensor that tells your gauge cannot give you a water temp reading if its stuck in an air pocket.
Your Heater wont blow warm if there is no coolant in your heater core.
and with no coolant flow, you overheat, which you say you can tell this is happening.


The EASIEST and BEST way to verify your cooling system has no air bubbles, and also verify there are no leaks causing air pockets is to get/rent/borrow an air evac tool like this one:

Airlift

This tool allows you to pull your entire cooling system down to a vacuum, then fill with coolant, displacing the empty space created by the vacuum.
Ant the kicker is: If you cannot create a 29" vacuum, you have a leak! Wait 5-10 minutes to verify this, if it holds vacuum, you are good!

I use a similar tool on EVERY car i work on where I have to disrupt anythign int he coolign system.

Somehow you got into the ECM, dude, your mechanic is wrong, put your old ECM back in, and use the tool (or similar) I suggested, then tell your mechanic to put his training certificate back in the Kellogg cereal box....
Telling you you have an electrical/computer problem for a cooling system issue is like saying someone has a headache because they stubbed their toe....

Good luck!
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:58 PM   #28
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UPDATE: Changed the ECM, not a single difference. I took it to S&S Tire again and they usually do good work on our other vehicles, their customer service is great too. But I walked in tonight and the mechanic that worked on it told me he was at a total loss. He said he and the head mechanic literally drove it down the road hooked up to their reader and not a single number or read was alarming. He said its not a fuel issues because the flammable break cleaner didn't fix it, the injectors all read equal, fuel pressure is good. He checked all vacuum lines, all my sensors read correct and strong and the cat converter has great flow. The distributor was replaced, the ignition system is working and I'm not throwing any codes. The engine isn't overheating like I suspected, it runs right at 195-200, and the heater has began to work again. I'm STILL idling rough and sputtering when its hot and I have no idea what to do now.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:59 PM   #29
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He was so dumbfounded that he told me if I get anything figured out to come back to him and let them know what it turned out to be...
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:05 PM   #30
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He did say the only thing that changed when it starts running rough is the timing. What could be causing the timing to mess up if everything is reading fine? Is there a way I can reset the timing or something?

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