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Old 08-24-2012, 12:49 PM   #6001
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I think you may be jumping to too many assumptions. These days, the lined between Japanese, German, and American cars is so blurred, swearing off all American cars in general is a bit extreme. The laziness you witness at the Corvette plant is typical of UAW. Chances are good their counterparts built your Honda. BMWs and Mercedes are sometimes built in South Carolina and Alabama. Nissan Armadas are designed and built in America. The new Maserati is going to be built on the same assembly line as the Grand Cherokee. Did you know the Wrangler is completely built and assembled by suppliers? Hyundai actually paints the Wrangler... go figure.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the UAW comment. Is the Wrangler plant a UAW shop? I hope not.

I understand that the line is blurred but there is just an organizational, cultural, and managerial difference between the American companies and the German/Japanese ones.

Let me give you an example. When I was a quality engineer and a GM rep was coming to inspect a process or the plant, we would do a little song and dance, do a tour, show a PowerPoint and get him out of the plant by lunch. I've seen Honda send chemists with Ph.D.s to inspect processes. You couldn't BS them and they didn't want a dog and pony show. They would do an inspection on their own and come back and tell you what problems you had to fix. Simply put, the Americans talked like they wanted quality but it was BS while the Japanese/Germans demanded quality and would quickly drop you if you didn't provide it.

Do I think Americans working for Honda can make good cars? Yes. Do I think UAW employees working for an American car company make good cars? Not so sure.

Ron

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Old 08-24-2012, 12:53 PM   #6002
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Originally Posted by Fellows

As a former Vette owner, I have to point out everybody should own at least one Vette in their life. Reliability is great considering the capabilities of the car and these kinds of stats are well documented online. I'd base my decision more than just the fact a plant worker may have smoked within 30 feet of it.
You mentioned "modern Vette " specifically. You should check an old St. Louis built Vette if you have a problem with the modern ones. Those were painted by hand with a guy and a spray hose. I'm sure he was probably smoking at the same time.
I toured the plant three years ago. Based on the employees I saw working the lines, I was so unimpressed i decided that I would never buy a vehicle produced there.

On the other hand, if anyone wants to offer me a great deal on a '58... :-)

Ron

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Old 08-24-2012, 01:02 PM   #6003
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I prefer to not see how the sausage is made in the cause of my automobile. The temptation to act rashly would be high.

My Vette was problem free and it was produced by those same people you witnessed. So writing off an entire vehicle due to the lazy people building it seems hasty and emotional.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:10 PM   #6004
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As a former Vette owner, I have to point out everybody should own at least one Vette in their life. Reliability is great considering the capabilities of the car and these kinds of stats are well documented online. I'd base my decision more than just the fact a plant worker may have smoked within 30 feet of it.
You mentioned "modern Vette " specifically. You should check an old St. Louis built Vette if you have a problem with the modern ones. Those were painted by hand with a guy and a spray hose. I'm sure he was probably smoking at the same time.
AMEN! I have been to the Corvette plant many times, and I have owned two Corvettes. The line is sureal, but that is UAW and it is hard to get a job at the Vette plant because it is apparently one of the more coveted plants to work in. Not sure why.

Corvettes are kinda like Jeeps, they are a specialty vehicle with a huge following. I have had two, the first one was a horrible experience. It had every issue a car could have.

GM gave me some money for the losses and I traded the damn thing in and got a Z06 Corvette. I have owned that car for 10 years. I even sold it and then bought it back. I love that car and I won't sell it ever again. I used it as a daily driver for 5 years, I drag raced it, took it on vacations, that car is a gem. Never had any significant problems. It is usually in the garage these days, but you are right there isn't anything quite like a Corvette and Jeep is a lot like that too.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:35 PM   #6005
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Is the Wrangler plant a UAW shop? I hope not.
Oh yeah - big time. Toledo is a Union Town...........................
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:54 PM   #6006
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Originally Posted by rddavisjr

I think you hit the nail on the head with the UAW comment. Is the Wrangler plant a UAW shop? I hope not.

I understand that the line is blurred but there is just an organizational, cultural, and managerial difference between the American companies and the German/Japanese ones.

Let me give you an example. When I was a quality engineer and a GM rep was coming to inspect a process or the plant, we would do a little song and dance, do a tour, show a PowerPoint and get him out of the plant by lunch. I've seen Honda send chemists with Ph.D.s to inspect processes. You couldn't BS them and they didn't want a dog and pony show. They would do an inspection on their own and come back and tell you what problems you had to fix. Simply put, the Americans talked like they wanted quality but it was BS while the Japanese/Germans demanded quality and would quickly drop you if you didn't provide it.

Do I think Americans working for Honda can make good cars? Yes. Do I think UAW employees working for an American car company make good cars? Not so sure.

Ron
Keep in mind UAW folks are making foreign cars too. My Civic was made by UAW's Canadian brethren and it had its share of fit and finish issues at delivery. Has been reliable since then though.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:06 PM   #6007
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Keep in mind UAW folks are making foreign cars too. My Civic was made by UAW's Canadian brethren and it had its share of fit and finish issues at delivery. Has been reliable since then though.
I own two Hondas. The Pilot has been near flawless for 8 years and 110k miles. Only problem was a bad seal on the freon line that allowed a slow leak, and it was fixed under warranty. I also have a Civic that is on its second transmission, 3rd navigation system, 2nd set of engine mounts, and 2nd ac unit, all before 80k miles. It also has never come close to the advertised 30/40 mpg. More like 23/27. Guess which one is getting traded in on the Wrangler...

Legendary Honda quality...
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:07 PM   #6008
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I own two Hondas. The Pilot has been near flawless for 8 years and 110k miles. Only problem was a bad seal on the freon line that allowed a slow leak, and it was fixed under warranty. I also have a Civic that is on its second transmission, 3rd navigation system, 2nd set of engine mounts, and 2nd ac unit, all before 80k miles. It also has never come close to the advertised 30/40 mpg. More like 23/27. Guess which one is getting traded in on the Wrangler...

Legendary Honda quality...
Just out of curiosity, what year Civic?
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:14 PM   #6009
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just out of curiosity, what year civic?
2006
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:34 PM   #6010
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Originally Posted by AgBullet
I own two Hondas. The Pilot has been near flawless for 8 years and 110k miles. Only problem was a bad seal on the freon line that allowed a slow leak, and it was fixed under warranty. I also have a Civic that is on its second transmission, 3rd navigation system, 2nd set of engine mounts, and 2nd ac unit, all before 80k miles. It also has never come close to the advertised 30/40 mpg. More like 23/27. Guess which one is getting traded in on the Wrangler...

Legendary Honda quality...
I have owned four Civics, two Accords, and one Odyssey. Some were assembled in Japan and some in the U.S. Other than expected maintenance, I haven't had any trouble with any of them. I usually sold them at 150k - 200k miles. We are still driving one of the Accords and the Odyssey. I remember a Civic giving me 32 mpg at the 200k mark.

I did have good luck with a Ford Ranger for a couple of years, but the the PT Cruiser and the the 2003 Wrangler X were quality nightmares and financial disasters for me. I also had a GM truck that had serious problems.

I'm not saying Honda is perfect, but they do have a very strong record in the areas of reliability and quality.

Ron
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:41 PM   #6011
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So my jeep was supposed to be delivered yesterday at 1:15 pm.. It has been missing for about 26.5 hours. I think its safe to say it was stolen off the delivery truck.. Luckily, I've had insurance on it since yesterday do I call geico and report it stolen? Or do I cry myself to sleep another night?
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:45 PM   #6012
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So my jeep was supposed to be delivered yesterday at 1:15 pm.. It has been missing for about 26.5 hours. I think its safe to say it was stolen off the delivery truck.. Luckily, I've had insurance on it since yesterday do I call geico and report it stolen? Or do I cry myself to sleep another night?
Could go steal it back.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #6013
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So my jeep was supposed to be delivered yesterday at 1:15 pm.. It has been missing for about 26.5 hours. I think its safe to say it was stolen off the delivery truck.. Luckily, I've had insurance on it since yesterday do I call geico and report it stolen? Or do I cry myself to sleep another night?
Mine was due last Monday by 1am. Its still missing lol. Imo this is a poor system. My Jeep doesn't currently show a delivery date and no one at Jeep has a clue why.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:12 PM   #6014
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I kinda thought they would say that. Basically, they know they can still sell it, and they'll just repair the scratch anyway. The next person will buy it and not even know.
That being said, you should let them fix it first, then see if you like the repair and make your decision then. I doubt you'll be able to tell. If it were silver, it would be a different story. As far as the primer showing, since robots do the painting, chances are they all look like that. Getting a new one won't likely be different. I'll check mine when I get off work.
Being new to jeeps, I'm a little surprised on the tone / concern about a scratch. Are we buying garage queens or off roaders? I'd be shocked if you go off road and don't and up with scratches &/or dents. Let them fix it, move on, and enjoy in. The first thing we would do to our new off road motorcycles is drop it to get the first scratch or bent part behind us. Stuff happen off the road. Just my two cents
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:16 PM   #6015
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Originally Posted by Rhs944

Being new to jeeps, I'm a little surprised on the tone / concern about a scratch. Are we buying garage queens or off roaders? I'd be shocked if you go off road and don't and up with scratches &/or dents. Let them fix it, move on, and enjoy in. The first thing we would do to our new off road motorcycles is drop it to get the first scratch or bent part behind us. Stuff happen off the road. Just my two cents
Not everyone off-roads. Some people off-road and take pride in the scratches they earned. Just my two cents.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:41 PM   #6016
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Mine was due last Monday by 1am. Its still missing lol. Imo this is a poor system. My Jeep doesn't currently show a delivery date and no one at Jeep has a clue why.
wow since Monday? That is some BS. What state are you in?
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:45 PM   #6017
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Let me start with one of these:
Honda, UAW, not always very constructive and helpful opinions .... are we not getting a little bit off topic?
This post is longish as it is (6000 posts, 200 pages) ....
And just out of precaution on of these:
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:51 PM   #6018
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Not everyone off-roads. Some people off-road and take pride in the scratches they earned. Just my two cents.
I bought a Rolex last year.. They only had a floor model. When I got home I noticed some scratches on the underside of the watch. The next day I had the store take it back and order me a Brand new factory sealed watch. I felt like I just paid premium dollar (11k) for a used watch.. That was unacceptable. I was not happy with the first watch but extremely happy with the replacement factory new watch. I've owned many watches and I know that scratching and banging it up is part of owning it.
The watch now has plenty of scratches and that is 100% unavoidable.
I already forgot the point I was trying to make....
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:09 PM   #6019
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alright you guys are starting to frighten me with this whole "possible lack of quality" in the jeep production process... my wife (who we just ordered a 13 commando sahara from pat ) is a stickler when it comes to details like paint, interior finish, bla bla bla. I hope that I'm not gonna have to refuse a BRAND NEW vehicle in a couple of weeks...
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:09 PM   #6020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhs944

Being new to jeeps, I'm a little surprised on the tone / concern about a scratch. Are we buying garage queens or off roaders? I'd be shocked if you go off road and don't and up with scratches &/or dents. Let them fix it, move on, and enjoy in. The first thing we would do to our new off road motorcycles is drop it to get the first scratch or bent part behind us. Stuff happen off the road. Just my two cents
I hear you. It's like if someone was worried their new bull dozer has a scratched hood. But to some people a Jeep is another car that needs to look good. It cost about as much as a BMW so I can understand if somebody wants it blemish free at delivery. That being said, unless it's a show car, I wouldn't worry too much about how the repair will age in comparison with the rest of the Jeep. The scratch is on the front of the fender which more than likely will get chipped up anyway.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:10 PM   #6021
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Originally Posted by rddavisjr

I toured the plant three years ago. Based on the employees I saw working the lines, I was so unimpressed i decided that I would never buy a vehicle produced there.

On the other hand, if anyone wants to offer me a great deal on a '58... :-)

Ron
Having just returned from Corvettes at Carlisle a few minutes ago, I can say with confidence that any great deal on a '58 is going to involve, umm... "a little work" :-)
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:12 PM   #6022
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As far as the primer showing, since robots do the painting, chances are they all look like that. Getting a new one won't likely be different.
This, 100%. ^

A robot program is exactly that, and they're going to be pretty consistent from one to the next as far as coverage. Color will make a difference, in how it covers the primer if the coat is thin.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:19 PM   #6023
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this, 100%. ^

a robot program is exactly that, and they're going to be pretty consistent from one to the next as far as coverage. Color will make a difference, in how it covers the primer if the coat is thin.
damn you robots! Damn you all to h%@&#!
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:41 PM   #6024
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Originally Posted by Rhs944 View Post
Being new to jeeps, I'm a little surprised on the tone / concern about a scratch. Are we buying garage queens or off roaders? I'd be shocked if you go off road and don't and up with scratches &/or dents. Let them fix it, move on, and enjoy in. The first thing we would do to our new off road motorcycles is drop it to get the first scratch or bent part behind us. Stuff happen off the road. Just my two cents
Did you see the pictures? A scratch isn't a concern. Unpainted primer definitely is.

Ron
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:45 PM   #6025
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Let me start with one of these:
Honda, UAW, not always very constructive and helpful opinions .... are we not getting a little bit off topic?
This post is longish as it is (6000 posts, 200 pages) ....
And just out of precaution on of these:
I understand what you're saying but the quality of the 2013 Wranglers coming out of the factory is on topic.
Ron
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:46 PM   #6026
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Did you see the pictures? A scratch isn't a concern. Unpainted primer definitely is.

Ron
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:47 PM   #6027
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Jeep '13 wranglers up on Jeep.com
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:53 PM   #6028
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Finally, actual commando mockup...
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:54 PM   #6029
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Originally Posted by Strokerswild

This, 100%. ^

A robot program is exactly that, and they're going to be pretty consistent from one to the next as far as coverage. Color will make a difference, in how it covers the primer if the coat is thin.
I can ++ that. I picked up my Dozer yesterday and it has pretty much the same paint issues. They don't particularly bother me though -- I didn't even notice until it was pointed out here.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:55 PM   #6030
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alright you guys are starting to frighten me with this whole "possible lack of quality" in the jeep production process... my wife (who we just ordered a 13 commando sahara from pat ) is a stickler when it comes to details like paint, interior finish, bla bla bla. I hope that I'm not gonna have to refuse a BRAND NEW vehicle in a couple of weeks...
Nothing to worry about. The primer happens to be Commando colored so you're all good. Plus Commando is a military special forces look. What would you think of a special forces guy without tattoos and scars? You'd think he was a poser that's what.

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