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Old 06-13-2013, 04:08 PM   #31
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I also think we are ignoring how much a diesel could help CAFE standards for Jeeps, over on allpar there is also talk about a turbo 3.2 pentastar being offered in the wrangler and even being the base engine in the 2 door after 2016

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Old 06-13-2013, 04:09 PM   #32
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The funny part about all the new materials etc they had to use to get to the 3k mark is that at that mark they still out weigh a stock CJ8. I wonder what kind of mpg a CJ8 could do with a pentastar? that sounds like a fun project!
DOT regs to make the JKs far safer than the CJs have added a ton of weight, while the EPAs CAFE standards push in the other direction....

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Old 06-13-2013, 04:16 PM   #33
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DOT regs to make the JKs far safer than the CJs have added a ton of weight, while the EPAs CAFE standards push in the other direction....
yeah I get that, I have a 74 triumph tr-6 that averages 40 mpg pretty much solely because it is light, but not safe at all and I figure the stitch concept is probably not much safer than a CJ because they basically took everything out of it
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:52 PM   #34
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Think they stop the jk? Or maybe longer jk, "jl" jku and jk truck
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:27 PM   #35
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Article sounds like more fruity marketing and less mechanical engineering.
I see Redbull, X-Box and iPhone7 JK editions for 2016.

Yeah it still costs $40,000 and gets 13 MPG but look at those cool ass embroidered logo's on the front seats WOW!

I'm just worried without good engineering help from Mecedes and BMW Chrysler might lose the fundamental Wrangler design and wreck it forever.
Airbag independant suspension, automatic only,electronic everything, built in child daycare. Blah!

God help us if FIAT designers get thier hands on it. Look like a friggin 4x4 Nissan Cube by time they're done with it.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:49 PM   #36
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The Daily drivers. These people (me) would prefer thick non-removeable doors that help block sound more, a slanted non-foldable windshield that cuts down on costs and helps with gas mileage, and better aerodynamics. I'd also like the spare removed ,TASTEFULLY not ugly, with an inflation kit included instead. I'd also like some modernized headlights, like the Grand Cherokee's, with HID as an option.



I think some really good points have been made about lightweight and full flat belly skid plates. These would appeal to the CAFE, Daily Driver, and offroad enthusiast alike! Put a skid like Genright's flat belly on there and make the body tub and doors out of aluminum (you'd have to be careful about how it bolts on though due to mixed metal corrosion). I'd like to offer an adjustable coil-over suspension system as an alternative to air suspension though. That way it would come stock all low to the ground but one could easily adjust it to ride higher when off-roading.

As for the CJ-8/Stitch weight comparison, I know how you feel man but safey and creature comforts have taken precedence over the years...it's still sad though that with all our technology and space age crap out there we still can't seem to find a good way to make a Jeep weigh less!

(as a side note, notice all the holes drilled into the frame of stitch, as well as the complete lack of usefulness of the back)
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:55 PM   #37
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that the basic Jeep concept continues in recognizable form after 70 long years is a tribute to the market demands for and enthusiastic purchase of, the 'transformer' style basic modular unit....

As alike as carbon atoms and and different as snowflakes, worries about design changes given a life-time supply of what-ever-version-ANY-of-us could possible conjure up, someone somewhere has that plus improvements. All the factory has to do is supply the base matrix for us to modify to our own notions.

Name any 10 features you want on your Wrangler, and your buddies will want 70% different options. How's the factory going to best serve that kind of market multiple personality spender?
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:02 PM   #38
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Jeep will never listen to forums because the forums are filled with true Jeepers. That's a small percentage of the overall buyers.

Most buyers are like me... The Daily drivers. These people (me) would prefer thick non-removeable doors that help block sound more, a slanted non-foldable windshield that cuts down on costs and helps with gas mileage, and better aerodynamics. I'd also like the spare removed ,TASTEFULLY not ugly, with an inflation kit included instead. I'd also like some modernized headlights, like the Grand Cherokee's, with HID as an option.

So what's my point? True Jeepers have different tastes than the daily driver type, and the daily driver type makes up a considerably larger chunk of the sales. So don't expect Jeep/Fiat to take ideas from the forum.
I've found your new Jeep, it already exists and it's called a.... BMW X5!!!!





With the panoramic sunroof option.


Just pretend your C pillar is a roll bar!
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:41 PM   #39
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Article sounds like more fruity marketing and less mechanical engineering.
I see Redbull, X-Box and iPhone7 JK editions for 2016.

Yeah it still costs $40,000 and gets 13 MPG but look at those cool ass embroidered logo's on the front seats WOW!

I'm just worried without good engineering help from Mecedes and BMW Chrysler might lose the fundamental Wrangler design and wreck it forever.
Airbag independant suspension, automatic only,electronic everything, built in child daycare. Blah!

God help us if FIAT designers get thier hands on it. Look like a friggin 4x4 Nissan Cube by time they're done with it.
This is one of the more incoherent rants I have seen on this forum. Can you back up anything you wrote?
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:13 PM   #40
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that the basic Jeep concept continues in recognizable form after 70 long years is a tribute to the market demands for and enthusiastic purchase of, the 'transformer' style basic modular unit....

As alike as carbon atoms and and different as snowflakes, worries about design changes given a life-time supply of what-ever-version-ANY-of-us could possible conjure up, someone somewhere has that plus improvements. All the factory has to do is supply the base matrix for us to modify to our own notions.

Name any 10 features you want on your Wrangler, and your buddies will want 70% different options. How's the factory going to best serve that kind of market multiple personality spender?
This is very true and completely agree a good foundation is the most important thing, I just hope they have the good sense to put a diesel in the next generation! I wonder what the next name will be CJ, YJ, TJ, JK....?
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:21 PM   #41
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This is very true and completely agree a good foundation is the most important thing, I just hope they have the good sense to put a diesel in the next generation! I wonder what the next name will be CJ, YJ, TJ, JK....?
CJ-11 and they would sell me on the name alone!
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:49 PM   #42
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I disagree. Jeep needs to take ideas from the forum for the "halo" Wranglers such as the Rubicon and incorporate the mainstream ideas where possible.
They don't need our help. Every year they make a few killer "Halo" Jeeps for Easter Safari. Everyone loves them but they don't have the balls to release one.

They always put Hemi engines, 35"+ tires, killer axles, etc.

A bunch of teasers is what they are. Or maybe too many lawyers or accountants getting involved to let it happen.

Then again if you really want a Halo Jeep you can order it that way...it will be $60k plus.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:53 PM   #43
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CJ-11 and they would sell me on the name alone!
Nice, that would be cool.

I'd like TJ-2

I read an article about a car manufacture trying to use Cornings Gorilla Glass from iPhones for windows/sun panels. They didn't mention the manufacturer but I thought about Jeep.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:13 AM   #44
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This is one of the more incoherent rants I have seen on this forum. Can you back up anything you wrote?
Well, I thought his bit about an X-Box edition was pretty funny, what with the Call Of Duty and Halo versions etc...
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Old 06-14-2013, 08:34 AM   #45
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They don't need our help. Every year they make a few killer "Halo" Jeeps for Easter Safari. Everyone loves them but they don't have the balls to release one.

They always put Hemi engines, 35"+ tires, killer axles, etc.

A bunch of teasers is what they are. Or maybe too many lawyers or accountants getting involved to let it happen.

Then again if you really want a Halo Jeep you can order it that way...it will be $60k plus.
The Rubicon is a "halo" Jeep, the stuff released at shows are concepts. If we can agree on that, my point becomes clearer.

They don't put a Hemi in the Wrangler because they don't lose significant numbers of sales without it. The same is true for diesel options. Similarly, they don't put a 4 banger in them anymore because it wouldn't significantly add to sales or mpgs.

Remember, the cost of an additional engine option to Jeep is tremendous. They have to modify their lines and production logistics, train techs at dealers, add pages to manuals, get the parts in the supply chain, etc. From a purely financial business standpoint, it makes little sense to add a Hemi or diesel. It may make sense to add a diesel once CAFE considerations are factored in.
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:48 AM   #46
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The Rubicon is a "halo" Jeep, the stuff released at shows are concepts. If we can agree on that, my point becomes clearer.

They don't put a Hemi in the Wrangler because they don't lose significant numbers of sales without it. The same is true for diesel options. Similarly, they don't put a 4 banger in them anymore because it wouldn't significantly add to sales or mpgs.

Remember, the cost of an additional engine option to Jeep is tremendous. They have to modify their lines and production logistics, train techs at dealers, add pages to manuals, get the parts in the supply chain, etc. From a purely financial business standpoint, it makes little sense to add a Hemi or diesel. It may make sense to add a diesel once CAFE considerations are factored in.
I was under the impression that the reason there was not a hemi in it was because it couldn't meet crash standards with the hemi in the engine bay. I completely agree with you about the 4 cylinder it would have to work far to hard and probably get worse gas mileage. The diesel won't make it in this generation because it apparently requires an entirely different wiring harness among other things to run but my guess would be there is a really good chance we get a diesel with the next generation and I would not be surprised by 30+mpg out of a 2 door
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:56 AM   #47
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I agree with you on that one I wish Jeep and other manufactures would use these forums more. but in reality if they asked us what we wanted the next Jeep to be it would have a bedlined interior, water-proofed electronics, Dana 60's front and rear, V8 and diesel option, truck option, a 7000lb towing capacity min, 35's from the factory with 37's as an option, sealed transmission, intakes built into the A pillars for a factory snorkle, oh and a cover in the back for cargo.... WAIT thats exactly what I want!!! Please build it! They would sell a bunch of those to us but unfortunately we are a small percentage of the people who buy wranglers. The AM General is an interesting idea but I'll throw out another lets find out who owns the kaiser name plate and start making M 715's again! competition breeds excellence!
You will be very surprised. On the s2000 forums, we found out that Honda was actually reading the forum, so we added a section called "Tell Honda." Some of the things on the 2004+ s2000 were as a result of people "complaining" and suggesting on the s2000 forum (ie, stronger valvetrain, carbon synchros, better gear ratios, etc.)

If the powers that be (admin mods) are reading this, consider adding a section to the forum called "Tell Chrysler." Then you can email the link to chrysler reps, people like Pat, etc. Believe it or not, manufacturers do monitor what's going on in the forum world.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:02 PM   #48
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You will be very surprised. On the s2000 forums, we found out that Honda was actually reading the forum, so we added a section called "Tell Honda." Some of the things on the 2004+ s2000 were as a result of people "complaining" and suggesting on the s2000 forum (ie, stronger valvetrain, carbon synchros, better gear ratios, etc.)

If the powers that be (admin mods) are reading this, consider adding a section to the forum called "Tell Chrysler." Then you can email the link to chrysler reps, people like Pat, etc. Believe it or not, manufacturers do monitor what's going on in the forum world.
That would be pretty sweet! it would be great if the mods added a section like that especially with the redesign getting underway. Link it to their facebook page also?
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:16 PM   #49
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Wha????

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Jeep will never listen to forums because the forums are filled with true Jeepers. That's a small percentage of the overall buyers.

Most buyers are like me... The Daily drivers. These people (me) would prefer thick non-removeable doors that help block sound more, a slanted non-foldable windshield that cuts down on costs and helps with gas mileage, and better aerodynamics. I'd also like the spare removed ,TASTEFULLY not ugly, with an inflation kit included instead. I'd also like some modernized headlights, like the Grand Cherokee's, with HID as an option.

So what's my point? True Jeepers have different tastes than the daily driver type, and the daily driver type makes up a considerably larger chunk of the sales. So don't expect Jeep/Fiat to take ideas from the forum.
After reading this, I hope they don't take ideas from this forum. I don't think that your wants/needs accurately represent most wrangler owners inside and outside of what you consider "True Jeepers". The vehicle you're describiing above already exists within the Jeep range..... Patriot, Compass, Grand Cherokee, and that abomination, the new Cherokee.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:37 PM   #50
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After reading this, I hope they don't take ideas from this forum. I don't think that your wants/needs accurately represent most wrangler owners inside and outside of what you consider "True Jeepers". The vehicle you're describiing above already exists within the Jeep range..... Patriot, Compass, Grand Cherokee, and that abomination, the new Cherokee.
Technically, they do. This forum is comprised on enthusiasts. We are the people that want diesel engines, more accessories, etc etc. The regular Wrangler mall crawling crowd doesn't take their doors off, does't offroad, doesn't do crap. You much rather have chrysler listen to the people on this forum (even with some crazy ideas) than a questionare booth set up at the mall or the dealership.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:42 PM   #51
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Great discussions and ideas here.

It appears we are overlooking how CAFE is going to work.

Depending on how the JK is classified, for example, the 2016 window sticker (combined EPA) if evaluated alone would have to say 26 mpg. During that year though, the JKU, assuming it is classified in the next larger footprint class and evaluated alone would have to only say 19 MPG.

Now the hard part.

- Are they evaluated alone? Not really, but the "Corporate Average" in CAFE isn't going to be like it was. I keep pointing this out. You can't, for example, put your micro Fiat in with your loaded JK Rubicon and use one to pull the other up. As I read it though, across the line, vehicles within a footprint class that have high MPG can be used to pull up those with lower MPG. But, getting a 2016 "light truck, small" average up to 26 MPG combined probably isn't going to happen. So there will be fines.

- In at least one documented consideration at NHTSA, the Wrangler is mentioned by name in the context of developing (possibly) a size and weight class for luxury and purpose built vehicles. They are heavy, but have a smaller physical size. Link: Reforming the Automobile Fuel Economy Standards Program

No that is very dated material but it shows how they were thinking when they were making the changes that eventually led to the negotiated standards.

A more recent editorial look is here The CAFE Way: Future Trucks and Fuel Economy - Motor Trend

What we don't know but need to know.

Where on this chart is the JK and where is the JKU? What class?

Corporate Average Fuel Economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That, even if changed, is really all that matters when you talk redesign and CAFE.

You can make it mid 20s MPG and keep the capability, but I figure for something like the JK, you are looking at 5K to the sticker + plus whatever inflationary forces happen between now and then (the fine per unit sold would be much, much less).

Bumping the 2DR JK up to 40K could allow for some stronger exotic materials that save weight, allow for a diesel we'd like and aero changes we could live with. That would take it into the low 30s MPG. But with the 4DR selling like hotcakes and potentially sitting pretty in the CAFE class of an F150, would Fiat even bother doing all that?

That's why I don't see anything "radical" for 2016. Offer a miserly diesel, charge a premium. Keep the JK listed as small truck. Pull it's MPG average up selling 4 banger Compass and Cherokees. Pay the fine per unit. Pass it to us. Lobby to put the JKU in the larger class of light truck. Sell those all day long. Keep tweaking the MPG as best ya can.

Far far out, you'll have flying cars or some sort of Jeep with four wheel independent suspension where each wheel is mounted on a hydraulic arm that gives you a street ride height of optimal aero and lifts 15" inches for offroad. (Like something out of a video game) It'll cost 80K and remind you when you're out of milk at the house. Or we'll be riding horses, fighting zombies. I don't know.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:44 PM   #52
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Technically, they do. This forum is comprised on enthusiasts. We are the people that want diesel engines, more accessories, etc etc. The regular Wrangler mall crawling crowd doesn't take their doors off, does't offroad, doesn't do crap. You much rather have chrysler listen to the people on this forum (even with some crazy ideas) than a questionare booth set up at the mall or the dealership.
True, but with the choice of such a relatively crude vehicle compared to what else is on the road, they want to be associated with those of us that do!
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:07 PM   #53
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What people don't realize is that Wrangler sales are coming from soccer moms & daily drivers, not Jeep enthusiasts. For every 1 person/$30,000 Jeep enthusiast that buys a Jeep, they're getting 10 soccer moms & daily drivers/$300,000. Who do you think they're going to listen to?

I heard someone say the other day on another forum they wish they would put the Wrangler's spare tire under the vehicle like other auto manufacturers, install non-removable doors, get rid of the removable tops & put, "real," sun roofs, etc. It will be a sad day when this happens.

"Yes, let me skip over all the vehicles on the market that have all the features I want & buy a vehicle that doesn't have any features I want then complain that it doesn't have any features I want."

Where is the common sense nowadays?
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:35 PM   #54
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What people don't realize is that Wrangler sales are coming from soccer moms & daily drivers, not Jeep enthusiasts. For every 1 person/$30,000 Jeep enthusiast that buys a Jeep, they're getting 10 soccer moms & daily drivers/$300,000. Who do you think they're going to listen to?

I heard someone say the other day on another forum they wish they would put the Wrangler's spare tire under the vehicle like other auto manufacturers, install non-removable doors, get rid of the removable tops & put, "real," sun roofs, etc. It will be a sad day when this happens.

"Yes, let me skip over all the vehicles on the market that have all the features I want & buy a vehicle that doesn't have any features I want then complain that it doesn't have any features I want."

Where is the common sense nowadays?
It is probably much worse than you mention. Buying a stripped Jeep to build up here is common for enthusiasts, where as daily drivers will probably just buy a fully loaded factory model, and keep it that way. So, if your 10:1 ratio holds it may be more like 1@$25k for enthusiasts, or 10@$35k for daily drivers.

This same thing is happening to the video game industry. Casual gamers generally want shorter, easier to get into games. Easy to beat, etc. The hardcore gamers want the opposite. Hardcore gamers may spend more per person, but there are SO many more people that fall into the casual crowd, that many game developers are abandoning building games that hardcore gamers are interested in, despite the fact that hardcore gamers pretty much built the market(like Jeep enthusiasts did for Jeep).
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:51 PM   #55
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What people don't realize is that Wrangler sales are coming from soccer moms & daily drivers, not Jeep enthusiasts. For every 1 person/$30,000 Jeep enthusiast that buys a Jeep, they're getting 10 soccer moms & daily drivers/$300,000. Who do you think they're going to listen to?

I heard someone say the other day on another forum they wish they would put the Wrangler's spare tire under the vehicle like other auto manufacturers, install non-removable doors, get rid of the removable tops & put, "real," sun roofs, etc. It will be a sad day when this happens.

"Yes, let me skip over all the vehicles on the market that have all the features I want & buy a vehicle that doesn't have any features I want then complain that it doesn't have any features I want."

Where is the common sense nowadays?
Too true I'd say we would be lucky to be 10% but I would say we make the most noise lets hope they don't abandon their loyal following but what they did to the Cherokee has me a little concerned. I would hope though with the second best selling vehicle in their line-up they wouldn't go to crazy with the redesign
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Old 06-14-2013, 02:58 PM   #56
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What people don't realize is that Wrangler sales are coming from soccer moms & daily drivers, not Jeep enthusiasts. For every 1 person/$30,000 Jeep enthusiast that buys a Jeep, they're getting 10 soccer moms & daily drivers/$300,000. Who do you think they're going to listen to?

I heard someone say the other day on another forum they wish they would put the Wrangler's spare tire under the vehicle like other auto manufacturers, install non-removable doors, get rid of the removable tops & put, "real," sun roofs, etc. It will be a sad day when this happens.

"Yes, let me skip over all the vehicles on the market that have all the features I want & buy a vehicle that doesn't have any features I want then complain that it doesn't have any features I want."

Where is the common sense nowadays?
The Grand Cherokee/Cherokee/Liberty buying moms might feel that way, but the Wrangler buying soccer moms want to be associated with those who are more hard core. Hopefully the product guys and bean counters at Jeep/Chrysler/Fiat will remember the lessons that Bob Lutz brought to the brands in the 90s and ensure that tradition and confidance in the product hold up against "focus groups".
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:17 PM   #57
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My only three things I want improved on a wrangler.....

1) A diesel motor dammit.
2) Aluminum tub/panels/hood.
3) Factory linex undercoating on the bottom and inside the tub.

If I am doing pipedream...more gear options from the factory available on all models, D44 option for the sport/sahara and a D60 option for the Rubicon.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:20 PM   #58
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My only three things I want improved on a wrangler.....

1) A diesel motor dammit.
2) Aluminum tub/panels/hood.
3) Factory linex undercoating on the bottom and inside the tub.

If I am doing pipedream...more gear options from the factory available on all models, D44 option for the sport/sahara and a D60 option for the Rubicon.
D60 would have my interest. Would slap on some 42's with a monster lift JFF.
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:45 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
My only three things I want improved on a wrangler.....

1) A diesel motor dammit.
2) Aluminum tub/panels/hood.
3) Factory linex undercoating on the bottom and inside the tub.

If I am doing pipedream...more gear options from the factory available on all models, D44 option for the sport/sahara and a D60 option for the Rubicon.
Those all sound like great options to me and I hope it is the direction they go, one question though is if the tub is aluminum would there be a reason to LineX it? I guess maybe extra texture, increase strength a little? D60 and a diesel
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:08 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by yacc View Post
It is probably much worse than you mention. Buying a stripped Jeep to build up here is common for enthusiasts, where as daily drivers will probably just buy a fully loaded factory model, and keep it that way. So, if your 10:1 ratio holds it may be more like 1@$25k for enthusiasts, or 10@$35k for daily drivers.

This same thing is happening to the video game industry. Casual gamers generally want shorter, easier to get into games. Easy to beat, etc. The hardcore gamers want the opposite. Hardcore gamers may spend more per person, but there are SO many more people that fall into the casual crowd, that many game developers are abandoning building games that hardcore gamers are interested in, despite the fact that hardcore gamers pretty much built the market(like Jeep enthusiasts did for Jeep).
Excellent analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC View Post
My only three things I want improved on a wrangler.....

1) A diesel motor dammit.
2) Aluminum tub/panels/hood.
3) Factory linex undercoating on the bottom and inside the tub.

If I am doing pipedream...more gear options from the factory available on all models, D44 option for the sport/sahara and a D60 option for the Rubicon.
An aluminum tub would be great, but there are tradeoffs. You simply can't straighten aluminum without compromising strength. Our Lotus has an aluminum tub which weighs ~130 pounds, about 1/3 of a steel tub. However if it is bent more than 1/4 inch, it is no longer to spec and the vehicle is going to be totaled. You'd be surprised how many low speed wrecks will total an aluminum tub vehicle.

Modern steel panels can be almost as light as aluminum and are MUCH more repairable. Some weight can be saved with plastics or fiberglass.

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