3.21 Rear End mileage vs. more torque - Page 3 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:26 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKone3 View Post
6-Speed Manual needs 3.73 gear even on stock height tires
Auto can deal with 3.21 gears since you're staying on stock height tires.
People keep saying this, but it's actually the opposite. You can control the shift points on the manual. When the JK was first introduced, 4.10 was standard on the automatic. They later changed it so that they could post better MPG across the board.

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Old 11-01-2013, 09:30 PM   #62
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If you do any off roading (not just rock crawling) deeper gearing means a higher crawl ratio-slower crawl. Gotta appreciate them lower gears

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Old 11-01-2013, 09:30 PM   #63
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Is there a better way to describe it to someone who doesn't know?
It just makes me nuts when people say it's not a smooth short throw like a sports car. They say it's too much like a truck. IT IS A TRUCK!
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:32 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
It just makes me nuts when people say it's not a smooth short throw like a sports car. They say it's too much like a truck. IT IS A TRUCK!
well said Tom.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:40 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
People keep saying this, but it's actually the opposite. You can control the shift points on the manual. When the JK was first introduced, 4.10 was standard on the automatic. They later changed it so that they could post better MPG across the board.

People say this because the 12+ auto is geared lower than the stick and the auto seems to handle the 3:21 gears better than the stick. Not trying to start a war but seems like the auto makes more usable power than the stick
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:43 PM   #66
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Geared lower than the stick? Please explain.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by tabber02 View Post
well said tom.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:46 PM   #68
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Keep in mind, 3.73 is a must have in my mind. I have it in mine and made sure it was in the one my wife ordered as well.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:52 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
Geared lower than the stick? Please explain.
Final drive ratio on the auto is lower at 0.83 versus the manual at 0.797
Not to mention 1st is almost too low on the stick which = a slower 0-60.
I also think the ratio split between each gear on the auto are perfect where the stick is not as linear.
2012+ Transmission Ratios

Manual
1st 4.46
2nd 2.61
3rd 1.72
4th 1.25
5th 1.00
6th 0.797
R 4.06

Automatic
1st 3.59
2nd 2.19
3rd 1.41
4th 1.00
5th 0.83
R 3.16

Make no mistake If I were doing it over again I would have the 3:73s no doubt. But the 3:21s are very doable.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:58 PM   #70
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Based on that the torque advantage is with the manual, which means it's more important to have lower gears with the auto.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:28 PM   #71
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I disagree. The A580 holds an advantage over the stick in the torque dept as well as having a lower final drive ratio.
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Old 11-02-2013, 12:11 AM   #72
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I didn't think about gears much before I bought my wrangler, and the dealer only had 3.21 in stock. Anything else would be special order. I have a sport, 6 speed manual with 29" tires and 3.21, and I extensively commute on the highway. Can't stand the 29" tires, but really hesitate to install the 33s I want since it will make the gearing even worse. It's ok as is, but every time I drive it, I think about how higher (numerically) gears would improve it. It's ok now, but just OK.

Eventually I will regear.


Edit- reading this, it sounds like I'm unhappy with my jeep. I'm not! I love it, the gearing is my only complaint, and I can live with that. I've had tons of different manual transmissions, and I like this one. Lots of character, and shifts great. No issues. It's NOT a sports car, that's an unfair comparison.
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:33 AM   #73
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Everyone has their own opinion on what they feel is adequate or not. The only way to know is buy the Jeep and decide for yourself down the road if you're happy.

But if someone chooses the 3.21's then they better hope they're happy with it, because otherwise they're SOL. Or they can just spring a few hundred bucks (which in the grand scheme of things is nothing, especially if they modify the Jeep) and get the shorter gears, significantly reducing the risk of them being disappointed with it. There is no downside to the shorter gears.

I think the choice is blatantly obvious.
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Old 11-02-2013, 07:00 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
Based on that the torque advantage is with the manual, which means it's more important to have lower gears with the auto.
But the torque converter in an auto trans essentially doubles (or thereabouts) the engine torque.....
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:01 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
It just makes me nuts when people say it's not a smooth short throw like a sports car. They say it's too much like a truck. IT IS A TRUCK!
Yep. Maybe you'll be surprised to learn the first Chrysler vehicle to use this transmission wasn't a truck, it was the Crossfire. Guess what? In the car application, the transmission still felt TRUCK LIKE!

I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're basically agreeing with what I originally said, but seems like you're trying to rub my nose in it. I said the transmission was truck-like as a way of describing the throws to someone who had never driven one.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:08 AM   #76
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Quote:
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But the torque converter in an auto trans essentially doubles (or thereabouts) the engine torque.....
The torque converter is the clutch in an auto trans. It doesn't increase torque, it provides a constant torque. That's why when you remove your foot from the brake the vehicle moves forward. In a manual you have to engage the clutch, select a gear, and apply gas while releasing the clutch to move forward.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:08 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioviper View Post
Final drive ratio on the auto is lower at 0.83 versus the manual at 0.797
Not to mention 1st is almost too low on the stick which = a slower 0-60.
I also think the ratio split between each gear on the auto are perfect where the stick is not as linear.
2012+ Transmission Ratios

Manual
1st 4.46
2nd 2.61
3rd 1.72
4th 1.25
5th 1.00
6th 0.797
R 4.06

Automatic
1st 3.59
2nd 2.19
3rd 1.41
4th 1.00
5th 0.83
R 3.16

Make no mistake If I were doing it over again I would have the 3:73s no doubt. But the 3:21s are very doable.
Final drive ratio refers to the gear ratio in the axles.

What you are neglecting to mention is the torque multiplication in the torque converter which gives the auto an advantage in getting the jeep moving. Based purely on gear ratios, the manual has the advantage of a lower first gear ratio which assists in low speed drive ability, but that advantage is obscured when you consider the torque multiplication factor. At the opposite end, top gear ratio only matters when cruising at high speed. In the manual, you can always anticipate a hill and downshift (or even just leave it in a lower gear) when you need brisk acceleration. In the Auto, you have to jam the accelerator and wait for it to shift, or use the auto stick and still wait for it to shift.

In either case, 3.73 is probably better overall.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:18 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOK View Post
Yep. Maybe you'll be surprised to learn the first Chrysler vehicle to use this transmission wasn't a truck, it was the Crossfire. Guess what? In the car application, the transmission still felt TRUCK LIKE!

I'm not trying to be a dick, but you're basically agreeing with what I originally said, but seems like you're trying to rub my nose in it. I said the transmission was truck-like as a way of describing the throws to someone who had never driven one.
You are taking something personally that was in no way directed at you. My "Ya Think?" post was actually in agreement with you. I've had a Jeep since the CJ days. I've seen it all. (of course something new always pops up to amaze me). The Wrangler was first designed to attract more buyers. In recent years more and more of those new buyers have come from the car and soft SUV world. They expect (and want) the Wrangler to behave as a car. I would prefer it to handle more like a truck. One of the first things I did was replace the soft riding hydro shocks with a set of Bilstein gas shock to stiffen the ride and make it more truck like.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:32 AM   #79
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OK, sorry for the confusion.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:55 AM   #80
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I dont understand why people on here claim you only need lower gears for offroading. My gears are great offroading but when I get on the highway in over drive they suck....
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Old 11-02-2013, 10:28 AM   #81
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Final drive ratio refers to the gear ratio in the axles.
.
Multiplying your rear axle ratio by your transmission gear ratio in OD or top gear yields the final drive ratio .


And yes the torque converter does give an advantage as it can double or tripple the torque output on take off and then lock up for a direct drive when rpms match up. This is why the A580 does better with the 3:21s than the stick does.It has a mechanical advantage over the direct drive of the stick . The older autos didn't do as good of a job at this as the A580. It seems to have a very efficient design on the torque converter and near perfect ratio spread in the gears. Its almost like it has a 2 speed converter effectively making the 5 speed a 10 speed.

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Old 11-02-2013, 11:06 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
The torque converter is the clutch in an auto trans. It doesn't increase torque, it provides a constant torque. That's why when you remove your foot from the brake the vehicle moves forward. In a manual you have to engage the clutch, select a gear, and apply gas while releasing the clutch to move forward.
Might want to read up: Torque converter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As stated earlier, the difference in on-road performance between my 6-speed '12 and my auto '13 (both 3.21s) is night and day, the '13 stomps the wee out of the '12.
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Old 11-02-2013, 12:05 PM   #83
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I dont understand why people on here claim you only need lower gears for offroading. My gears are great offroading but when I get on the highway in over drive they suck....
Won't make much difference driving on a dirt road that you can do in 2 wheel drive or in a Subaru. Anything you need 4WLO/hi for you'll appreciate lower gears for.
3.21 suck for anything from a twisty turny rocky trail to full on rock crawling. In which case 4.56s are great. I enjoy driving on the city roads, to the highway, to the dirt road to get to the rock crawling with 4.56s. The ONLY time I enjoyed 3.21s was at the gas station.
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Old 11-02-2013, 12:12 PM   #84
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My 2014 auto with 3.21s is really nice to drive, I agree it seems to works great with the 3.6l auto and 3.21s. I'll admit I have driven my 6spd Rubicon once since I got my 14. I will say though I rented a Jeep in Hawaii a few months ago and it was a 2011 with the 3.8, auto and 3.21s, it was a complete dog!
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:29 PM   #85
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I wouldnt say they suck offroad.I find myself in 4LO and 2nd or 3rd a lot. Not very often do I need to drop into 1st but when I do it is plenty low . Ive not once thought I needed to be geared lower on the trails around here.
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #86
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Just ordered a Copperhead Wrangler Unlimited with the 3.73 and the auto. Really thought I was gonna get the stick, but between driving several different variations of transmission and rear ratio this morning, and all of the input I've gotten, I went with the 3.73 and the auto. Thanks again all.
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Old 11-02-2013, 05:47 PM   #87
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Nice, you'll love it!
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Old 11-02-2013, 06:50 PM   #88
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Lots of chatter over axle ratios

I have the 3.21 standard ratio with 6-speed and here are my opinions after driving it about 2500 miles in all on-road conditions - mountains, in town, mixed. I like most will never do much off-roading; snow and ice in the mountains will be enough for me here in Northern California.
  • I don't plan to put huge tires on it, I'm enough of a "poser" as it is driving a Jeep on pavement!
  • I am fine with the lower ratio most of the time - I'd take slightly better gas mileage as a tradeoff, and don't mind downshifting if need be.
  • The negative I have found is - even in 2nd gear going downhill in the mountains, I sometimes find there's not enough engine braking! As opposed to all the other comments, if I had a reason to pay more for the higher available ratio, it'd be to get more engine braking.
  • I've driven every kind of manual for many years - Corvette, Miata, Honda, Acura, Trucks, Fiats, on and on. It's a matter of personal opinion but mine is that the standard shift on the Jeep is outstanding and excellent - for the kind of vehicle that it is! Mine and the several that I test drove ('14 and '13) all shifted smooth, fast, positively. By the way I drove automatics and they drove very well too - I just prefer a manual especially in a vehicle like a Jeep.
  • I looked at a lot of dealer inventory and I'd say while the optional ratios are on a lot of vehicles (maybe 20% or less) the COMBINATION of finding one in stock with manual AND higher ratio is rare is Hell. If you are ordering one and getting EXACTLY what you want, take your time and drive all the possible combinations.
  • Even though I am super-happy with my Jeep, so far I love it - if I were to order one from the factory, I'd probably order the 3.7 higher gears so I'd have more flexibility including beefier tires some day. Cheap insurance.
  • Not contradicting myself here, I just bought the one from dealer inventory that came amazingly close to what I wanted (they tend to load 'em up with crap I didn't want). Most important decision - Buy a JEEP!!
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:42 PM   #89
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Might want to read up: Torque converter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As stated earlier, the difference in on-road performance between my 6-speed '12 and my auto '13 (both 3.21s) is night and day, the '13 stomps the wee out of the '12.
I did read and understand it. The difference very well good have felt night and day to you. It also depends on how you drove the 6 speed. Once again, the torque converter is the auto trans equivalent of a clutch. If it doubled an engine's torque, there would be no more manual transmissions in existence.
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Old 11-02-2013, 08:55 PM   #90
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Just picked up my 3.73 Sahara unlimited manual on Monday I love it!! Would not have it any other way except maybe 410 if I could have ordered a sahara with them. I did special order the 3.73 after test driving the 3.21 manual. My 2002 explorer also had the 3.73 gear. So far driving my new jeep is like going to an amusement park every day!! Ps I also recommend the LSD but that's a whole other thread !!

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