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Old 12-10-2011, 10:37 PM   #91
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ranjr is correct.
Damn. Is it too late to have the dealer fix the order if he placed it last week? I'll have to call him on Mon.

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Old 12-10-2011, 10:43 PM   #92
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4.10 hands down, no questions asked. In a tj, I hate my 3.07s with a passion. I'd kill for stock 4.10s

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Old 12-11-2011, 03:05 AM   #93
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This may indicate a trend, at least in your local area, toward higher gears. Were they 2dr or 4dr, or a mix? And they were all 2012s? Another thing to be aware of is that standard features are listed on the left of the window sticker. I don't have a window sticker in front of me, but the standard may be 3.73 for all. Look on the right side of the sticker for the Rubi option and see if an optional ratio is listed there. You may find that they are all 4.10. Or not.

A used (2011 or prior) Rubi sitting on a lot right now better have 4.10 gears, or it may be sitting there quite awhile. If a lot of Pentastar Rubis are ordered with 3.73 and offroaders come to love that ratio, then future used Rubis may do quite well with the 3.73, and 4.10 will be sought out only by serious offroaders.
missed this piper, the rubicons that were at the dealer, were all 2012s and are jku. yes they all had 3.73. interesting in that when i bought my 08 sahara, i remember the 08 jkur all were 4.10. when i was looking at at the 2012s, i was shocked at that they had 3.73 ratio. then i drove one. not so much a trend, just new thinking and a way to improve mpg with the same or better performance?
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Old 12-11-2011, 03:06 PM   #94
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Thankfully I stopped by the dealership today and my salesman was able to make the change before it was too late. What a relief. Thanks for the heads up guys.
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:22 PM   #95
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10% is 10%, right? What am I missing?

Again assuming no other mods such as larger tires on a 4.10 which would lessen the difference even more. Or larger tires on the 3.73 which would increase the difference even more.

We have to be talking auto vs. auto or manual vs. manual.

Please educate me. If this is not correct defend your position. I will listen and learn.

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To take an extreme example, say you get 18 mpg out of a Rubi with a 4.10 ratio and the new engine. Now install 2.05 gears, you are not going to get anywhere close to 36 mpg.

Look at it this way. Say you want to move a Wrangler at 70 mph on flat ground for an hour, assume temperature, wind etc. are constant. It's going to take a fixed amount of energy to accomplish that to overcome wind resistance, mechanical friction, etc. Even if you put the engine at some RPM where it were 100% efficient, you've still got to extract enough BTU's out of the fuel to reach that fixed amount of energy.

I just don't think expecting MPG changes to be in linear proportion to axle ratio changes is a very good approximation. The numbers may turn out reasonably well for relatively small changes in axle ratio, e.g., from 3.73 to 4.10. But I think you'll find that method doesn't work as well for bigger changes. I don't think you could swap 4.88's for 3.21's and expect to get 1.52 times better mileage.

As real world example, ever had a car with a "rowdy" camshaft? Something that would balk and run terribly under 3000 rpm or so. You would gear that car to put cruising rpm closer to the torque peak, right? But you wouldn't expect that car to get better mpg if you swapped in some highway gears. All that would do is put the engine in an RPM range where it was less efficient.
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:29 PM   #96
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Whatever gear ratio, keeps the engine in its comfort zone-

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/on-...te-127086.html

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Old 12-11-2011, 09:55 PM   #97
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Whatever gear ratio, keeps the engine in its comfort zone-

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/on-...te-127086.html

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I think this is 100% correct BUT the O/D ratio in the '12 Auto is different than the pre '12s. What RPM does a pre '12 Auto turn at 70 MPH with 4.10s and Rubi "32s"? The '12 setup like this is 2600.
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:09 PM   #98
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yea, there's a big diff. between the 2012 and the pre 2012s, but the SAME principle applies--(Engine efficiency)--=RPM


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I think this is 100% correct BUT the O/D ratio in the '12 Auto is different than the pre '12s. What RPM does a pre '12 Auto turn at 70 MPH with 4.10s and Rubi "32s"? The '12 setup like this is 2600.
The 3.8L with auto and 32" tires, at 70mph-in O/D-is---2080 rpm(no power/no mileage/no throttle response-etc

My 3.8L with 5.38 gears-at 70mph is also 2600 rpm-in O/D-but

As has been stated lotta times, the new 5spd auto and close gear ratios, make the 3.6L a much more agreeable performer with 4.10 gearing-

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Old 12-11-2011, 10:24 PM   #99
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I think this is 100% correct BUT the O/D ratio in the '12 Auto is different than the pre '12s. What RPM does a pre '12 Auto turn at 70 MPH with 4.10s and Rubi "32s"? The '12 setup like this is 2600.
The new Auto is very close to the same as the Manual which was in the pre 2012 and 2012 of course. So those with pre 2012 manuals do know how the gearing feels on the road.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:57 AM   #100
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What is the "comfort zone" of the 3.6?

From my test drives....it started to get fairly doggish below 1600 RPM's...but that was on a very tight engine.

I think VVT "expands" the comfort zone....but it is still hard to tell exactly what that range is. How low can you go into the RPM's and still have "passing power" without downshifting? 1700? 1800? 1900?

Along those lines....one other observation that does not really get mentioned oftened.

Dropping out of OD on the new auto isn't as substantial as dropping out of OD on the 42RLE because the ratios are so much closer.

For the 42RLE, at 70mph on stock wheels, it is an 848 rpm gap between 3rd and 4th for the 3.73, and 933 rpm's for 4.10's. That is a pretty big jump.

For the 5 speed, at 70mph on stock wheels, the gap between 4th and 5th gear is exactly 400 rpm's for the 3.21's, 465 rpm's for the 3.73's, and 513 rpm's for 4.10.

I guess as transmissions get more gears, "hunting" and OD will kind of take on a different meaning. I'm sure the new 8 speed auto tranny changes gears quite a bit. I remember reading an article recently about how some consumers might be leary of that many gears because consumers equate transmissions changes to "hunting".
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:03 PM   #101
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The new Auto is very close to the same as the Manual which was in the pre 2012 and 2012 of course. So those with pre 2012 manuals do know how the gearing feels on the road.
Heh heh, rics, this is why I call my transmission....the jesus transmission. Because it was equivalent to having the jesus engine with an auto! Thing is we have had it for since the JK came out in 07.....jesus....can that thing move with 4.1 and 6 gears!!
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:59 PM   #102
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Yeah, 5th and 6th in the 07-11 manuals is almost identical to 4th and 5th in the new autos. (1.0/0.83 vs 1.0/0.84)

The question becomes a matter of finding out what RPM range is needed to do prevent down shifting at highway speeds when you need to pass or hit a hill.

The 3.6 gets WAY too much hype about the 80 extra HP at 6400 RPM. That is almost meaningless. Who runs a Wrangler to the redline?
IMO, the big deal (about the engine, not the tranny) is the improvement in power in that 1700 to 2000 rpm range...where you tend to cruise on the highway in O/D.

VVT
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:06 PM   #103
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The 3.6 gets WAY too much hype about the 80 extra HP at 6400 RPM. That is almost meaningless. Who runs a Wrangler to the redline?
IMO, the big deal (about the engine, not the tranny) is the improvement in power in that 1700 to 2000 rpm range...where you tend to cruise on the highway in O/D.

VVT
Passing. All that extra power is great for passing or merging. What's great about it is how quickly it gets to 6400 rpm and how fast you are going when you get there.

Personally, I think people overestimate engine torque. You can always increase torque to the wheels mechanically.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:33 PM   #104
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Passing. All that extra power is great for passing or merging. What's great about it is how quickly it gets to 6400 rpm and how fast you are going when you get there.

Personally, I think people overestimate engine torque. You can always increase torque to the wheels mechanically.
I guess I've never really done that (gunned the engine to pass).

I own a 4000 pound 4 door Jeep with the 42RLE and a 3.73 axle (but on 29.3 inch wheels). Maybe I'm just used to taking my time and picking my spots because the thing is a gas hog already.

Of course another factor is that I don't have kids yet, and the GF's dog is only 9 pounds....so it isn't like a carry a lot of extra weight.

As an aside, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say torque is overrated.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:42 PM   #105
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I guess I've never really done that (gunned the engine to pass).

I own a 4000 pound 4 door Jeep with the 42RLE and a 3.73 axle (but on 29.3 inch wheels). Maybe I'm just used to taking my time and picking my spots because the thing is a gas hog already.

Of course another factor is that I don't have kids yet, and the GF's dog is only 9 pounds....so it isn't like a carry a lot of extra weight.

As an aside, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say torque is overrated.
Well, to get past someone going say, 65 mph in a 70, maybe you're on a bit of an incline and you've got traffic coming in the other lane. I actually run into that situation pretty frequently on state highways out west (eastern WA). Yeah, you need some horsepower. You could have 200 hp and 600 ft lb of torque and you wouldn't get past that guy any faster.

I guess I don't really mean that torque is "overrated" exactly. It's just that some folks repeat over and over again about how torque is what matters and power isn't important in a jeep or whatever. I read those comments and often feel like whoever is writing them doesn't really understand how torque and horsepower are related. I am fairly certain even the most ardent torque addict wouldn't be pleased with say, 1000 ft. lbs. of engine torque from an engine that would only turn 50 rpm.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:11 PM   #106
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Thats what I've done to my '08 JKUR and I have NO TROUBLE with freeway travel-passing/mileage/ingress/egress-


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Passing. All that extra power is great for passing or merging. What's great about it is how quickly it gets to 6400 rpm and how fast you are going when you get there.

Personally, I think people overestimate engine torque. You can always increase torque to the wheels mechanically.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:00 PM   #107
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Well, to get past someone going say, 65 mph in a 70, maybe you're on a bit of an incline and you've got traffic coming in the other lane. I actually run into that situation pretty frequently on state highways out west (eastern WA). Yeah, you need some horsepower. You could have 200 hp and 600 ft lb of torque and you wouldn't get past that guy any faster.

I guess I don't really mean that torque is "overrated" exactly. It's just that some folks repeat over and over again about how torque is what matters and power isn't important in a jeep or whatever. I read those comments and often feel like whoever is writing them doesn't really understand how torque and horsepower are related. I am fairly certain even the most ardent torque addict wouldn't be pleased with say, 1000 ft. lbs. of engine torque from an engine that would only turn 50 rpm.
I understand what you are saying. Like I said...I guess I've gotten so used to babying my Libby and picking my spots (and avoiding the awful downshift of the 42RLE) that I never really get the RPM's up near peak.

It is on a very rare occasion that my Libby ever sees anything higher than 3000 rpms.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:10 PM   #108
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i have been thinking about this thread and saying the new rubis are fine with 3.73 rears and it is just possible i might be wrong. especially since it turns out it may be awhile before we can do gear swaps in the 2012s. with the new auto drivetrain, is there a way to convert, x ratio and new drivetrain is equal to x ratio in the old drive train. 07 t0 11 jk models.

i had hoped and believed this day would never come, but seems in 1971 my freshman year of high school, my algebra teacher said "some day you are going to have to know how to do this ....." i guess since i can't do the math ,today is the day.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:13 PM   #109
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I understand what you are saying. Like I said...I guess I've gotten so used to babying my Libby and picking my spots (and avoiding the awful downshift of the 42RLE) that I never really get the RPM's up near peak.

It is on a very rare occasion that my Libby ever sees anything higher than 3000 rpms.
Well there ya go! Once you fix the RPM (say a 3000 rpm limit), the only way to increase power is to increase torque. So you would probably appreciate an engine that produces a lot of torque, or, alternatively, an engine that produces a lot of power at relatively low RPM.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:44 PM   #110
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Heh Heh, my '08 4dr weighs 4945 lbs and all you gotta do is find the right gears for transmission of APPLIED POWER/TORQUE--to the wheels--

Simple, just takes money !

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Old 12-12-2011, 06:50 PM   #111
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Heh Heh, my '08 4dr weighs 4945 lbs and all you gotta do is find the right gears for transmission of APPLIED POWER/TORQUE--to the wheels--

Simple, just takes money !

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Gearing can increase torque output by the rear wheels, but does not increase power output by the rear wheels. (assuming equivalent engine torque).
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:53 PM   #112
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WRONG--you can't increase one--without the other and-

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Gearing can increase torque output by the rear wheels, but does not increase power output by the rear wheels.
If the torque is increased by at least 30%--who cares what the power factor is ??

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Old 12-12-2011, 06:59 PM   #113
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WRONG--you can't increase one--without the other and-



If the torque is increased by at least 30%--who cares what the power factor is ??

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You can absolutely increase torque without changing power, that is *exactly* what increasing the gear ratio does.

You can absolutely increase power without increasing torque - just apply the same amount of torque faster. Pretty much like ... the Pentastar.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:03 PM   #114
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i had hoped and believed this day would never come, but seems in 1971 my freshman year of high school, my algebra teacher said "some day you are going to have to know how to do this ....." i guess since i can't do the math ,today is the day.
I'm pretty sure that was Val Kilmer in "Red Planet"...playing on SyFy right now.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:07 PM   #115
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Heh Heh-yeah, of course--semantics and it is purely a matter of RPM/gear ratio for applied power/torgue-and


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You can absolutely increase torque without changing power, that is *exactly* what increasing the gear ratio does.

You can absolutely increase power without increasing torque - just apply the same amount of torque faster.
All I can say is my gear/selection, seems to have found the best of the combos-

Smokemifyougotem

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Old 12-12-2011, 07:14 PM   #116
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i have been thinking about this thread and saying the new rubis are fine with 3.73 rears and it is just possible i might be wrong. especially since it turns out it may be awhile before we can do gear swaps in the 2012s. with the new auto drivetrain, is there a way to convert, x ratio and new drivetrain is equal to x ratio in the old drive train. 07 t0 11 jk models.

i had hoped and believed this day would never come, but seems in 1971 my freshman year of high school, my algebra teacher said "some day you are going to have to know how to do this ....." i guess since i can't do the math ,today is the day.
The gears can be swapped on 2012's if you want. The limp mode issue was fixed about two months ago.

As far as comparisons go....the only thing you can look at is final drive ratio (which I what I were prefer instead of axle ratio).

The problem is that not only are you dealing with two different tranny's....but also two different engines as well.

There is a ton of knowledge here on the 42RLE and the 3.8 where you need to be in the powerband......but there isn't nearly as much detailed knowledge on the 3.6.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:21 PM   #117
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And therein lies the crux !


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The gears can be swapped on 2012's if you want. The limp mode issue was fixed about two months ago.

As far as comparisons go....the only thing you can look at is final drive ratio (which I what I were prefer instead of axle ratio).

The problem is that not only are you dealing with two different tranny's....but also two different engines as well.

There is a ton of knowledge here on the 42RLE and the 3.8 where you need to be in the powerband......but there isn't nearly as much detailed knowledge on the 3.6.
Straight to the heart of the matter-

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Old 12-12-2011, 09:24 PM   #118
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I'm pretty sure that was Val Kilmer in "Red Planet"...playing on SyFy right now.
yup, stole it sort of, didn't know it was on, still appropriate though. lol
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:28 PM   #119
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yup, stole it sort of, didn't know it was on, still appropriate though. lol

Oh, Hi Val!
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:32 AM   #120
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Guys....what's the final conclusion? Read all of this thread and you guys seem split.

I am ordering in 7-9 days...2014 2 door Rubicon. Auto trans. Dealer was going over options with me and talked me out of 4.10. Said the 3.73 was better choice. I would kill my mileage by 4-5 miles..ie end up getting 13 mpg instead of 17-18...also said it would run the engine harder driving on highways....not worth it. So I listened to him and went with 3.73. But, the order doesn't go out until 9-11th because I am waiting on Copperhead Pearl paint option.

Now I am reading don't get a Rubicon unless you get 4.10 rear end. 4.10 makes Jeep seem like "hot rod" around town.........only 1mpg difference....only 200-300 rpms difference....barely notice it, etc.

Which one is the better choice? If it really doesn't make that big an impact on mileage and engine noise on post-12 model Jeeps, then why not get it for the fun factor?

Help me out, I want advise on this before the order gets placed in a week. I still have time to change mine before the order gets placed. Thanks

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