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Old 10-07-2011, 07:39 PM   #31
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Does the possibility of Chrysler making the 3.6 Direct Injection in the near future make compaines of aftermarket mods less likely to come up with parts for tweaking these engines, since a change is just around the corner? Would it be cost effective for compaines selling parts to modify the current configuration which might remain EFI for maybe another year before a change over to DI? Once/If DI makes it into the 3.6 it will be around for quite a while.

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Old 10-07-2011, 07:56 PM   #32
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Just recently learned of the Ripp "long tube headers" for the 3.8. They "claim" pretty good gains. Worth someone looking into?

The kit comes complete with headers (obviously) tuner and a Flo 40 exhaust (I believe)

All comparable to the price of a regear.

Awesome thread Sin

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Old 10-07-2011, 08:25 PM   #33
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Does the possibility of Chrysler making the 3.6 Direct Injection in the near future make compaines of aftermarket mods less likely to come up with parts for tweaking these engines, since a change is just around the corner? Would it be cost effective for compaines selling parts to modify the current configuration which might remain EFI for maybe another year before a change over to DI? Once/If DI makes it into the 3.6 it will be around for quite a while.
I could see DI causing more complicated exhaust issues to consider if the EPA were to get further involved like Europe is going with DI emissions: Direct Injection Engines may also get particulate filters.
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:47 PM   #34
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Speaking of performance mods, I wonder what it takes to do this to the I-6!

BIG DOLLARS! And a custom made drivers seat ( to accommodate the nutz it would take to drive that thing )
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:49 PM   #35
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BIG DOLLARS! And a custom made drivers seat ( to accommodate the nutz it would take to drive that thing )
Ahahaha. I'd probably get in trouble if my jeep had that much power.
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:53 PM   #36
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Ahahaha. I'd probably get in trouble if my jeep had that much power.
Me too but it it would be worth it
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:04 PM   #37
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Not boring at all.

Just wondering. Why couldn't they have run *the loop* horizontally rather than vertically? At least it would have been tucked up higher. Wouldn't the back pressure (may not be using that correctly) be the same as far as tuning the exhaust?
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:48 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by CG3
Not boring at all.

Just wondering. Why couldn't they have run *the loop* horizontally rather than vertically? At least it would have been tucked up higher. Wouldn't the back pressure (may not be using that correctly) be the same as far as tuning the exhaust?
That loop has to be the strangest thing I ever seen. There has to be a reasonable explanation other than "runs better" or whatever
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:44 AM   #39
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The limitations you speak of are called torque managment, and yes the PCM will pull out anything that exceeds those limits via timing retard and throttle closure. It exists to protect the physical limits in the transmission... And yes some of us are working on it
Without using a programmer, I would think the trick is to find out how much leeway is in the stock maps.

If I put on a CAI would the PCM just start pulling timing in response to a leaner mixture, or would the PCM compensate for the increased air by increasing the power by continuously testing and learning, pushing to the edge of it's programming and only pulling back timing when it senses misfires?

Then I can put in a higher octane, reset the PCM and start again.

Strictly a guess on my part but I would think the Challenger gets its additional horsepower by a different intake plus a more freeflowing exhaust and maybe different injectors.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:48 AM   #40
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I could see DI causing more complicated exhaust issues to consider if the EPA were to get further involved like Europe is going with DI emissions: Direct Injection Engines may also get particulate filters.
I was referring to DI in a gas engine, like the one GM is using. It is causing consumers problems, and mechanics problems with intake valve deposits and fuel dilution in the oil. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:58 AM   #41
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I was referring to DI in a gas engine, like the one GM is using. It is causing consumers problems, and mechanics problems with intake valve deposits and fuel dilution in the oil. Sorry for the confusion.
Gasoline Direct Injection is exactly what I was talking about, Europe is considering putting "DPFs" on gassers as well due to the increase in particulate emissions with gasoline DI. Its all in the video as described in that thread. I was just adding a future concern that others might not be considering with "GDIs". 2:20 to 4:30 nails it:
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Old 10-08-2011, 06:37 AM   #42
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Gasoline Direct Injection is exactly what I was talking about, Europe is considering putting "DPFs" on gassers as well due to the increase in particulate emissions with gasoline DI. Its all in the video as described in that thread. I was just adding a future concern that others might not be considering with "GDIs". 2:20 to 4:30 nails it:
Thanks for clearing that up. I hope the 3.6 remains w/o DI. Unfortunately I'll be buying in 2013 and want NO part of that DI mess. A 6 speed AT I can deal with, DI I might just pass.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:11 AM   #43
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Just recently learned of the Ripp "long tube headers" for the 3.8. They "claim" pretty good gains. Worth someone looking into?

The kit comes complete with headers (obviously) tuner and a Flo 40 exhaust (I believe)

All comparable to the price of a regear.

Awesome thread Sin
Long tube headers typically give nice torque increases, by improving exhaust flow and scavenging, which is when the exhaust is being technically sucked from the chambers by a vacuum formed in the exhaust caused by exhaust gasses passing over the openings of the other cylinder's individual header tubes. Most hot street and race cars run long tube headers. At least those that have the room under the hood. They can cause a slightly lean condition, though. So again, a tune really makes them work to the best of their potential.

I'm not 100% sold on direct injection yet. The major drawback is deposits forming on the intake valves. In traditional fuel injection, fuel is introduced to the incoming air before the cylinder, so it washes over the intake valves, keeping them relatively clean. In direct injection, the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, so the exhaust gasses that get recirculated by the EGR system have a tendency to stick to the intake valves, causing pretty sever deposits in a relatively low amount of miles. These deposits form rock hard from basically being baked on, and are very difficult to remove. But my understanding is there is new technology that is helping with this. I have to do some more reading on it.

The DPF on the DI engines is very curious. For years, laws stated that you couldn't have a waste container on your vehicle. This is why turbo engines never came with catch cans like they should have. EVERY turbo engine should have one. They capture the recirculated exhaust gasses and let the oil vapor form in the bottom of the can, instead of coking the turbo blades and bearings. So, by calling the DPF a filter, they can get away with essentially the same thing? It doesn't make sense. A DPF WILL clog, it's only a matter of time. I've heard of some that will actually self ignite from time to time, to help keep them clean. They're a bad joke in my opinion.
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Old 10-09-2011, 10:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by CG3 View Post
Not boring at all.

Just wondering. Why couldn't they have run *the loop* horizontally rather than vertically? At least it would have been tucked up higher. Wouldn't the back pressure (may not be using that correctly) be the same as far as tuning the exhaust?
Technically, they could and should have. It's just there to make the exhaust longer, and it doesn't really matter to the escaping gasses if it's horizontal or vertical, at least in an application like this. It may be the vertical design was found to be slightly more efficient, I don't know. What they could have done is make a new muffler, they had the extra length inside. Of course, then the aftermarket would have to take this into account and make special mufflers for the Wrangler, and that just ends up making them more expensive........
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:56 AM   #45
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Technically, they could and should have. It's just there to make the exhaust longer, and it doesn't really matter to the escaping gasses if it's horizontal or vertical, at least in an application like this. It may be the vertical design was found to be slightly more efficient, I don't know. What they could have done is make a new muffler, they had the extra length inside. Of course, then the aftermarket would have to take this into account and make special mufflers for the Wrangler, and that just ends up making them more expensive........
I'm almost willing to bet something is done with that "loop" for 2013. Laying it on its side might be an option, but my guess is it will change. BTW-Great thread!
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:00 AM   #46
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I'm not 100% sold on direct injection yet. The major drawback is deposits forming on the intake valves. In traditional fuel injection, fuel is introduced to the incoming air before the cylinder, so it washes over the intake valves, keeping them relatively clean. In direct injection, the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder, so the exhaust gasses that get recirculated by the EGR system have a tendency to stick to the intake valves, causing pretty sever deposits in a relatively low amount of miles. These deposits form rock hard from basically being baked on, and are very difficult to remove. But my understanding is there is new technology that is helping with this. I have to do some more reading on it.

The DPF on the DI engines is very curious. For years, laws stated that you couldn't have a waste container on your vehicle. This is why turbo engines never came with catch cans like they should have. EVERY turbo engine should have one. They capture the recirculated exhaust gasses and let the oil vapor form in the bottom of the can, instead of coking the turbo blades and bearings. So, by calling the DPF a filter, they can get away with essentially the same thing? It doesn't make sense. A DPF WILL clog, it's only a matter of time. I've heard of some that will actually self ignite from time to time, to help keep them clean. They're a bad joke in my opinion.
I'm not sold on DI either as I already mentioned. My hope is they hold off until 2014, since 2012 is not in the cards for me. I'd rather not deal with first year DI in a Wrangler. I think Jeep knocked it out of the park for 2012, and I'd hate to see DI ruin it for them. JMO
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:34 AM   #47
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DPF maintenance & operation from the TDI perspective.

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A DPF WILL clog, it's only a matter of time. I've heard of some that will actually self ignite from time to time, to help keep them clean. They're a bad joke in my opinion.
DPFs must go through a regen process to stay clean, if you don't drive the vehicle more than 15 minutes at a time or attempt an "Italian Tune-Up" regularly you will get an automated regen of the DPF; " The passive regeneration occurs with no action taken by the car's computer. It occurs with higher sustained engine loads like freeway driving or fast acceleration onto the highway when exhaust gasses are hotter. These types of loads will produce exhaust gas temperatures (EGT) of about 350-500oC which thoroughly heat up and burn the DPF. If the car has only short stop-go trips, the exhaust doesn't have a chance to have a good passive burn off and will have more active regens or clog.

The active regeneration "self clean" occurs when filter soot loading is beyond 45% or every 466-621 miles (750-1000 kilometers), whichever is sooner. EGR is shut off and the fuel injectors squirt a little fuel into the engine cylinders after combustion (post combustion injection) that travels to the oxidation catalytic converter and oxidizes to raise EGT to around 600-650oC. The gasses travel to the DPF and burn up the trapped particulates. " VW Audi DPF filter FAQ with DPF problems like clogging and why you can't do a DPF bypass or DPF delete with a kit
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:38 AM   #48
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.......and yes DPFs will clog if not driver maintained as described Automated regens are not a fail safe.
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:44 AM   #49
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That just sounds like bad news. It sounds like a small malfunction away from blowing the exhaust off of your vehicle, lol.

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Old 10-10-2011, 09:07 AM   #50
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As previously stated, teh loop is on the 4 door. Based on my understanding of the engine, this is likely to keep the length of each exhaust bank equidistant from the (header?) before reaching the collector. This may or may not promote scavenging and balanced cylinder performance, but I would lean in that direction. A unique feature of the Pentastar is the lack of an exhaust manifold - everything is integral to the block/heads. Other than a cat-back, I wouldn't mess with the exhaust on the Pentastar, or at least I'm not going to be among the first to dink with it.

As for potential upgrades, Mr. Sinister is spot-on regarding the expanded role of the engine computer in this and any newer-generation modern engine. It's the future, prepare to deal with it. I had a 4.0 in my TJ that I loved - it was horribly slow, but had a wonderful twist of torque from idle and was as predictable as the sunset. I'm an IT guy by day and my TJ was my luddite alter-ego.

No more. Welcome to technology.

The other thing we have to watch for - manufacturers have reached a point where their goals of fuel efficiency and emissions compliance involve producing as much power from as little gas as possible and burning as much of that fuel inside the cylinder as possible. This is an incredible win-win situation that should get the EPA to back the F*** off and let the market push for more power and gas mileage, but I digress.

What this means is that power gains will be minimal for us to find... if you live in a state where emissions testing is mandatory, you may run into problems, because even if your engine burns clean, if it burns more gas, it will produce more CO2 and other pollutants that make hippies cry.

So where do you find it? The CAI will give you some higher-RPM gains, but most of us don't care for that. Your options are going to be boost. Turbos can be tuned for low RPM performance these days, which is excellent news. Superchargers are ideal. Neither is an inexpensive option, and both will require programming changes.

I do not think a programming change alone will produce a significant performance improvement, because I think Chrysler is already pushing that for the most part. That's just a guess at this point, we all know how diesel flash upgrades can produce torque numbers that are measured in scientific notation.

YMMV
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:20 AM   #51
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According to Pentastar there will be a twin turbo at 420 HP and single-turbocharger at 370 HP version planned for introduction by 2014 Both would be based on the 3.0 liter (same block with thicker cylinder liners) and might be slated for limited-production models (e.g. a new Viper based on a Maserati or an SRT mid-sized car). No help for the Jeep but it should be interesting.
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:37 AM   #52
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According to Pentastar there will be a twin turbo at 420 HP and single-turbocharger at 370 HP version planned for introduction by 2014 Both would be based on the 3.0 liter (same block with thicker cylinder liners) and might be slated for limited-production models (e.g. a new Viper based on a Maserati or an SRT mid-sized car). No help for the Jeep but it should be interesting.
Actually, the Pentastar family are said to all share internals (by displacement, I'm sure), so once the turbo models are intorduced, you'll start seeing lots of take off turbo setups when guys upgrade their stock stuff. Any PS engine will be capable of supporting boost. Making it fit in the Wrangler will be the trick. I saw under the hood of a 2012 this weekend, and it didn't look like there was a ton of room under there. It should be interesting, nonetheless.
As it sits, the 3.6 in the Wrangler is screaming for a small, fast spooling turbo.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:50 AM   #53
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Actually, the Pentastar family are said to all share internals (by displacement, I'm sure), so once the turbo models are intorduced, you'll start seeing lots of take off turbo setups when guys upgrade their stock stuff. Any PS engine will be capable of supporting boost. Making it fit in the Wrangler will be the trick. I saw under the hood of a 2012 this weekend, and it didn't look like there was a ton of room under there. It should be interesting, nonetheless.
As it sits, the 3.6 in the Wrangler is screaming for a small, fast spooling turbo.

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Old 10-10-2011, 06:22 PM   #54
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I have seen the STS systems in action, and they are impressive. I'm a little wary of a rear mount turbo on an offroad vehicle, though. But, that's what skidplates are for.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:57 AM   #55
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EGTs

I wonder how a rear mounted turbo would do caked up with mud on its housing? EGTs ( exhaust gas temperature ) is a big thing with turbos, would baked on mud trap heat in and further degredate the lifespan of the turbo?
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:11 AM   #56
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I wonder how a rear mounted turbo would do caked up with mud on its housing? EGTs ( exhaust gas temperature ) is a big thing with turbos, would baked on mud trap heat in and further degredate the lifespan of the turbo?
I would think that caking it with mud could create issues. Dry grass catching fire as well. Skid plates will keep it from getting bashed, but some sort of sealed container to put the turbo in would seem to be a good solution.
I was also concerned about submerging or partially submerging a hot turbo in cold water, but I did read a discussion about it with a guy from STS and supposedly it won't create any issues. These guys make a quality product, so I'm trusting them on it.
They have a kit ready to go for the 07-10 it would appear, so adapting it to the 3.6 should be too difficult. I would think packaging it to fit in the Wrangler was the biggest hurdle. It says they worked with Teraflex on packaging it, so I'm hoping they covered all the bases. Squires Turbo Systems - Jeep Wrangler

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