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Old 06-04-2013, 02:52 PM   #31
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My thinking with the LSD is the opposite of the opinions express here already. For driving on pavement, snow, ice, anything you may encounter on a public road, a Limited Slip Differential is unnecessary. The Brake Lock Differential that is standard equipment on all Wranglers is enough to get you moving again in the snow. Provided you know how to drive with it. (Think more gas!) Traction control, ABS and Stability Control have come so far that slipping and sliding on normal surfaces are mitigated by these safety features alone. The LSD is supposed to be used in very mild off-road situations where the transfer of 15-30% (at best) power from a slipping wheel can power the wheel that still has traction. In any situation where your Jeep is acutally off-road and in a differential traction situation, a LSD will be found wanting.

I drove my Jeep with an open diff for two years in Indiana. We get plenty of snow and our road maintenance is not the greatest. There was never a situation where a LSD would have helped me on the road. I added a selectable this year as I intend get in some semi-serious off-roading. An LSD would never cross my mind for this sort of thing....

I see where a Limited Slip makes sense on light trail rigs and muscle cars. I think that most of us use our Jeeps for more or less serious stuff. The LSD falls outside that "goldilocks zone". Just my thoughts.

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Old 06-04-2013, 03:46 PM   #32
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My thinking with the LSD is the opposite of the opinions express here already. For driving on pavement, snow, ice, anything you may encounter on a public road, a Limited Slip Differential is unnecessary. The Brake Lock Differential that is standard equipment on all Wranglers is enough to get you moving again in the snow. Provided you know how to drive with it. (Think more gas!) Traction control, ABS and Stability Control have come so far that slipping and sliding on normal surfaces are mitigated by these safety features alone. The LSD is supposed to be used in very mild off-road situations where the transfer of 15-30% (at best) power from a slipping wheel can power the wheel that still has traction. In any situation where your Jeep is acutally off-road and in a differential traction situation, a LSD will be found wanting.

I drove my Jeep with an open diff for two years in Indiana. We get plenty of snow and our road maintenance is not the greatest. There was never a situation where a LSD would have helped me on the road. I added a selectable this year as I intend get in some semi-serious off-roading. An LSD would never cross my mind for this sort of thing....

I see where a Limited Slip makes sense on light trail rigs and muscle cars. I think that most of us use our Jeeps for more or less serious stuff. The LSD falls outside that "goldilocks zone". Just my thoughts.
I have to say, I disagree with nearly everything you posted. I do agree the the factory LSD is a light duty LSD, but beyond that...we don't see eye to eye.

Is it possible to drive a vehicle without LSD? Sure, my car does not have LSD and I drove it through Iowa and Illinois winters for more than a decade (still have it). My Libby that I traded in didn't have LSD and I managed to get by. But the LSD on my Wrangler makes a HUGE difference on wet roads. You can literally feel one wheel spin for a half a second, then the other wheel "hook up" as you try to take a right turn and merge into speeding traffic in the rain. Or make a left turn at a busy intersection on a slick road.

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Old 06-04-2013, 04:02 PM   #33
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I have to say, I disagree with nearly everything you posted. I do agree the the factory LSD is a light duty LSD, but beyond that...we don't see eye to eye.

Is it possible to drive a vehicle without LSD? Sure, my car does not have LSD and I drove it through Iowa and Illinois winters for more than a decade (still have it). My Libby that I traded in didn't have LSD and I managed to get by. But the LSD on my Wrangler makes a HUGE difference on wet roads. You can literally feel one wheel spin for a half a second, then the other wheel "hook up" as you try to take a right turn and merge into speeding traffic in the rain. Or make a left turn at a busy intersection on a slick road.
I am willing to take your word for it. I have driven in the rain quite a bit, and of course I make plenty of turns. While I have not experienced slippage myself, I can grasp the concept. If the LSD helped in that situation for you, it was well worth the cost. $295 as a option at the point of purchase is far less than adding it on later. I still have to say that I am happy to have the extra 3 bills in my wallet. I have not expienced a need for one in any situation whatsoever.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:05 PM   #34
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My thinking with the LSD is the opposite of the opinions express here already. For driving on pavement, snow, ice, anything you may encounter on a public road, a Limited Slip Differential is unnecessary. The Brake Lock Differential that is standard equipment on all Wranglers is enough to get you moving again in the snow. Provided you know how to drive with it. (Think more gas!) Traction control, ABS and Stability Control have come so far that slipping and sliding on normal surfaces are mitigated by these safety features alone. The LSD is supposed to be used in very mild off-road situations where the transfer of 15-30% (at best) power from a slipping wheel can power the wheel that still has traction. In any situation where your Jeep is acutally off-road and in a differential traction situation, a LSD will be found wanting.

I drove my Jeep with an open diff for two years in Indiana. We get plenty of snow and our road maintenance is not the greatest. There was never a situation where a LSD would have helped me on the road. I added a selectable this year as I intend get in some semi-serious off-roading. An LSD would never cross my mind for this sort of thing....

I see where a Limited Slip makes sense on light trail rigs and muscle cars. I think that most of us use our Jeeps for more or less serious stuff. The LSD falls outside that "goldilocks zone". Just my thoughts.
Might not be needed in flat Indiana, but anywhere there is a slippery hill to get up, the LSD is going to help while the Brake Lock Differential will be worthless unless you are stopped and stuck.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:06 PM   #35
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Limited Slip is beneficial in almost every weather condition in my opinion. Most will agree that a real heavy duty LSD is not used in the Wrangler.

Everyone's weather and driving conditions are different, but I can say there are no negatives to having a LSD. If $10 extra in lube is a negative, you guys need to get another job.

Just like a shotgun... I'd rather have one (Posi) and not need it than need it and not have it.

I got a wicked deal on my JKU that didn't have it, so I settled due to price. Otherwise I wanted it.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:07 PM   #36
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You're on LSD if you don't get the LSD. #2 reason (behind lockers) I bought my TJ in Rubicon trim.
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:09 PM   #37
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I think I'm with Red on this one. My understanding of the BLD is that it is designed to keep both wheels on the same axel spinning at the same rate. If the system senses that one wheel is spinning, it applies the brake to increase the torque required to make that wheel spin, thus increasing the torque to the wheel with traction. It takes some getting used to, because one's natural inclination is to brake when wheels spin, which is counterproductive on BLD. The driver should gently apply more power to also apply more torque. This along with the ESC should be all you need in normal driving conditions. But perhaps I should read more on the topic. I've driven my JKUR in the rain and haven't had any issues.
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:33 PM   #38
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I think I'm with Red on this one. My understanding of the BLD is that it is designed to keep both wheels on the same axel spinning at the same rate. If the system senses that one wheel is spinning, it applies the brake to increase the torque required to make that wheel spin, thus increasing the torque to the wheel with traction. It takes some getting used to, because one's natural inclination is to brake when wheels spin, which is counterproductive on BLD. The driver should gently apply more power to also apply more torque. This along with the ESC should be all you need in normal driving conditions. But perhaps I should read more on the topic. I've driven my JKUR in the rain and haven't had any issues.
Traction control /= LSD.

Just look at this garbage and the delay and jerkiness of application. Imagine that on ice, snow or in the wet on pavement. Fail. Get the LSD.
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:38 PM   #39
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I think I'm with Red on this one. My understanding of the BLD is that it is designed to keep both wheels on the same axel spinning at the same rate. If the system senses that one wheel is spinning, it applies the brake to increase the torque required to make that wheel spin, thus increasing the torque to the wheel with traction. It takes some getting used to, because one's natural inclination is to brake when wheels spin, which is counterproductive on BLD. The driver should gently apply more power to also apply more torque. This along with the ESC should be all you need in normal driving conditions. But perhaps I should read more on the topic. I've driven my JKUR in the rain and haven't had any issues.
Read the below link if you want to know more. It is a Chrysler engineer explaining BLD
Chrysler Blog - Jeep Brake Traction Control Explained

-------------------
I think people are confusing BLD with traction control (ESP).

If I'm climbing over an obstacle with one wheel in the air, I want BLD (if I don't have lockers). But people have been applying the parking brake or tapping the brake pedel for years...which is basically doing the same thing.

If I'm pulling out into fast moving traffic on a slick road (in 2WD), I want LSD (and good tires). What I don't want is the traction control (ESP) dance where the computer thinks now is a good time to apply my brakes and cut power to my engine.


Saying BLD is a good substitute for LSD is like saying BLD is a good substitute for lockers. It isn't...
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:15 PM   #40
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I think I'm with Red on this one. My understanding of the BLD is that it is designed to keep both wheels on the same axel spinning at the same rate. If the system senses that one wheel is spinning, it applies the brake to increase the torque required to make that wheel spin, thus increasing the torque to the wheel with traction. It takes some getting used to, because one's natural inclination is to brake when wheels spin, which is counterproductive on BLD. The driver should gently apply more power to also apply more torque. This along with the ESC should be all you need in normal driving conditions. But perhaps I should read more on the topic. I've driven my JKUR in the rain and haven't had any issues.
The LSD reacts much quicker, like panthermark described.
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:41 PM   #41
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All Rubicons are open diffs. Drove now 2 winters with the BLD just fine. Ice, light snow etc. Unless your wheel is in the air i.e. off road and on a rock or something, or unless you drive over curbs in the city, you'll need the locker, otherwise BLD works as advertised. Having said that, if it is easy to get get it like 4.10 vs 3.73, always better to have more if convenient. If not, not worth the loss of sleep worrying about it.

Something like that.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:24 PM   #42
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Traction control /= LSD.

Just look at this garbage and the delay and jerkiness of application. Imagine that on ice, snow or in the wet on pavement. Fail. Get the LSD.
Wow...
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:41 PM   #43
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All JK/JKU Rubicons are open diffs. Drove now 2 winters with the BLD just fine. Ice, light snow etc. Unless your wheel is in the air i.e. off road and on a rock or something, or unless you drive over curbs in the city, you'll need the locker, otherwise BLD works as advertised. Having said that, if it is easy to get get it like 4.10 vs 3.73, always better to have more if convenient. If not, not worth the loss of sleep worrying about it.

Something like that.
Fixed that for you, since I mentioned that I have a TJ and got the rubicon model specifically for the LSD (yes I know this is the JK side of things, but I couldn't resist a LSD post). For a mall crawler, I'd take the LSD over any of that electric nonsense and lockers.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:57 PM   #44
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excellent thread !!! i have been contemplating on getting the anti spin diff option when i order my 2014. i was really unsure if it was truly needed, due to the fact that my vehicle will be almost 99% of the time on the road.

While everyone will say here in florida we have nice smooth roads... we also do have quite of abit of rain 6 months out of the year every year. so road conditions do get very wet. i think i'll end up getting it now
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:02 PM   #45
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This guy wouldnt have ran into any issues if he just disco'd his front sway bar
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:12 PM   #46
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excellent thread !!! i have been contemplating on getting the anti spin diff option when i order my 2014. i was really unsure if it was truly needed, due to the fact that my vehicle will be almost 99% of the time on the road.

While everyone will say here in florida we have nice smooth roads... we also do have quite of abit of rain 6 months out of the year every year. so road conditions do get very wet. i think i'll end up getting it now
I ordered LSD on my Sport because I was getting almost all the available options. Look at it this way when you go to sell it, it will probably be a plus to the next buyer. Just like I order trailer towing whenever I can because people seem to ask about when I go to sell my used vehicles.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:53 PM   #47
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I started a thread a few days ago with a similar theme. I didn't get LSD and feel BLD and traction control is a good/ very good system and all one would need in normal day to day driving which the OP describes he/she is going to do.

Is LSD + BLD better than BLD alone....I have come to the conclusion it probably is but not enough to be difference maker and something (LSD) one would probably never miss.

I've been driving for years in the rain, in the snow, getting on ramps, etc. Never have had LSD, never needed it. My Jeep came with a system that mimics LSD as a standard option so it is much more formidable than any vehicle I have ever owned.

Some say its only a 295 option so you should get it. The 295 to me is a non factor, if I want something I will cough up the money. But I'm sure not going to throw 295 out the window for something I don't need just to say I have it.
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:33 PM   #48
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No wonder car salesman try to feed me BS when I am at the dealership.
There are some completely misinformed, 180 degrees off, upside down opinions here.
Holly redbilly I can't believe how misled you are.
Traction control concerns wheel spin...you can mash the gas to the floor or abracadabra your right foot any way you want but traction control is going to remove power to that wheel so it does not spin. All great unless you have an 18 wheeler rapidly growing larger in your rearview mirror while your jeep gradually accelerates forward at a pace so as to not spin your single rear drive wheel.
I am not going to go on and on, but simply said, you need to go drive a jeep with anti-spin on a wet day, snow day, or ice day.
If you don't think you need it, or don't think you want it, you never drove a vehicle with it.
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:56 PM   #49
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I started a thread a few days ago with a similar theme. I didn't get LSD and feel BLD and traction control is a good/ very good system and all one would need in normal day to day driving which the OP describes he/she is going to do.

Is LSD + BLD better than BLD alone....I have come to the conclusion it probably is but not enough to be difference maker and something (LSD) one would probably never miss.

I've been driving for years in the rain, in the snow, getting on ramps, etc. Never have had LSD, never needed it. My Jeep came with a system that mimics LSD as a standard option so it is much more formidable than any vehicle I have ever owned.

Some say its only a 295 option so you should get it. The 295 to me is a non factor, if I want something I will cough up the money. But I'm sure not going to throw 295 out the window for something I don't need just to say I have it.
That is a very odd conclusion to come to if you've never had LSD in a vehicle, and from your answers, I still don't think you quite understand how BLD works and why it is so different from LSD. BLD is fine for creeping over an obstacle or trying to creep up the side of a slippery grassy mound slowly. But those situation do not apply to everyday driving. In every video you have seen of BLD, the vehicle is question is coming to a complete stop.



The vehicle I traded in for my Wrangler was a Jeep Liberty with Selec-Trac (basically an AWD option) and open diffs. There is nothing I hated more than being in 2WD, taking a turn from a stop (on packed snow or splotchy ice), and having the Traction Control system kick in because one wheel was started to spin when it was momentum I wanted. You end up moving really slowly while doing the throttle/brake tango with the computer as traffic is baring down on you. Towards the end, I just left my Libby in 4H/AWD all the time once it started getting cold out. I knew that when I traded in my Libby for a Wrangler, I would have to give up Selec-Trac (that I loved) for Command-Trac (no full-time 4WD mode)....and in doing so, I knew that having LSD would be a must because I just came from an open diff rear wheel drive vehicle. I was still able to get along fine in my Libby, but I knew LSD would make it easier.

A better question is always....Trac-Lok or aftermarket LSD? Aftermarkets are far better than Trac-Lok...but will run you $600-$800 to get installed, and can give a dealer in out to deny warrenty coverage on that part of the Wrangler.
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Old 06-20-2013, 03:59 PM   #50
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No wonder car salesman try to feed me BS when I am at the dealership.
There are some completely misinformed, 180 degrees off, upside down opinions here.
Holly redbilly I can't believe how misled you are.
Traction control concerns wheel spin...you can mash the gas to the floor or abracadabra your right foot any way you want but traction control is going to remove power to that wheel so it does not spin. All great unless you have an 18 wheeler rapidly growing larger in your rearview mirror while your jeep gradually accelerates forward at a pace so as to not spin your single rear drive wheel.
I am not going to go on and on, but simply said, you need to go drive a jeep with anti-spin on a wet day, snow day, or ice day.
If you don't think you need it, or don't think you want it, you never drove a vehicle with it.
THANK YOU!

That is exactly the issue I ran into with my Libby and traction control. Sometime the last thing in the world you want is for the computer the decide that it is going to apply the brakes, cut your engine power, and stop your momentum no matter how hard you mash the gas.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:14 PM   #51
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A better question is always....Trac-Lok or aftermarket LSD? Aftermarkets are far better than Trac-Lok...but will run you $600-$800 to get installed, and can give a dealer in out to deny warrenty coverage on that part of the Wrangler.
What options are there if I want to get a LSD for my open rear end? Why would it void warranty if many come with a LSD? Is there a Mopar installed option?
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:21 PM   #52
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What options are there if I want to get a LSD for my open rear end? Why would it void warranty if many come with a LSD? Is there a Mopar installed option?
Here's one: Detroit Trutrac by Eaton Performance Limited Slip Differential for 07-13 Jeep® Wrangler & Wrangler Unlimited JK with Dana 44 Rear Axle - Quadratec

As to the warranty, Chrysler warranties your vehicle as it came from the factory. What you change isn't covered, and what's damaged by what you change isn't covered. Whatever is undamaged by what you change remains covered.

The brand or installer of the part you change is irrelevant. Whether your dealer installs some sort of Mopar LSD or a 4x4 shop installs the TruTrac I just linked, Chrysler is not required to cover either one (or anything they damage or that is damaged by their installation) under your vehicle warranty.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:24 PM   #53
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What options are there if I want to get a LSD for my open rear end? Why would it void warranty if many come with a LSD? Is there a Mopar installed option?
There are several options depending on how you use your Jeep. Some are a bit more "aggressive" than others. One the the better options is a Tru-Trac....very good all around LSD. The Mopar version is the factor Trac-Lok...which is a clutch based LSD and is very...tame. If you are going to install one, install a better aftermarket one.

And it won't void your entire warranty...it would be similar to regaring. If something goes wrong, and if the dealer can trace it back to something in you diff, they might not cover a warranty claim. Just depends on the dealer.

There is a thread around here right now about a dealer denying coverage on an axle seal. This is a good example....one dealer said no, another dealer said yes.
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/dea...al-250035.html

Edit: Yup Mike, Tru-Trac is probably the way to go. I went back and forth between factory Trac-Lok or going aftermarket. But since I wasn't brave enough to have someone open up the pumpkin on a brand new vehicle (and I had already spend enough money on other aftermarket stuff)...I went Trac-Lok. I wish Tru-Trac was a factory option.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:36 PM   #54
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Awesome thread. I am currently evaluating JKs as I might trade in my TJ Sahara. I heard that the 100% locker from the JK Rubis are not always advantageous. E.g. in sand or mud they might even dig in deeper. Therefor i thought why not buying a Sport or Sahara and add Detroit/Eaton LSDs. I'll drive the JK mainly on road or in muddy conditions (wet european woods and offroad parks).

Any thoughts on this?
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:46 PM   #55
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Awesome thread. I am currently evaluating JKs as I might trade in my TJ Sahara. I heard that the 100% locker from the JK Rubis are not always advantageous. E.g. in sand or mud they might even dig in deeper. Therefor i thought why not buying a Sport or Sahara and add Detroit/Eaton LSDs. I'll drive the JK mainly on road or in muddy conditions (wet european woods and offroad parks).

Any thoughts on this?
They are not always advantageous, but not for the situations you mentioned (they are great for those situations, as lockers make almost everything off-road easier).

Where JK Rubi lockers "suffer" (if you want to call it that) is that they are either locked (only available in 4L) or are open diffs...you can't add LSD to the JK Rubi locker. TJ Rubi's had a combo LSD/selectable Locker combo in the rear, which was the best of both worlds.

I don't know what to tell you. Wet roads, LSD is better than open diff. Off-road, lockers are better than LSD. Both wet roads and mud? No wrong answer.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:30 PM   #56
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Thank you for your answer! And how about the Rubi with lockers disengaged? It has still the electronic safety stuff. But as I understoodvthis thread so far, theyr "help" is not much appreciated as it brakes for traction and takes away power when needed.

I mean, those engineers must habe thought something when they took out the LSD option... but what?
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:58 PM   #57
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:13 PM   #58
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That is a very odd conclusion to come to if you've never had LSD in a vehicle, and from your answers, I still don't think you quite understand how BLD works and why it is so different from LSD. BLD is fine for creeping over an obstacle or trying to creep up the side of a slippery grassy mound slowly. But those situation do not apply to everyday driving. In every video you have seen of BLD, the vehicle is question is coming to a complete stop.
My point is that I have never had LSD in any vehicle and I never had an accident where LSD would have made a difference or an incident where LSD would have helped. I have had to drive in all weather conditions with many vehicles. So why would I need LSD in a jeep for everyday driving now?

Your example is correct for off road driving but BLD also works like LSD in everyday driving. Example...if you are on a hill, in 2 WD and one rear wheel is spinning on ice and the other wheel is on solid ground BLD will transfer torque to the other wheel just like LSD.

If you are driving down a slippery road BLD tries to keep both wheels on the same axle rotating the same speed so if one wheel loses traction and starts to spin the other wheel hopefully on solid ground will get torque and keep you moving.

Is that not basically the function of LSD?
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:19 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by panthermark View Post
... I don't know what to tell you. Wet roads, LSD is better than open diff. Off-road, lockers are better than LSD. Both wet roads and mud? No wrong answer.
They key here is to know what you want and how it will make your Jeep behave. On wet roads, LSD will lock up and the rear end may kick out on you if you're heavy on the gas. More so in snow. An open diff will go straight with some wheel spin. I'll take the instant traction of LSD to both wheels and deal with the rear end fishtailing over an open diff any day. It's more fun too. Some folks may not like the fishtail effect. Stock lockers are usless on the street since you can't use them in 4H. For off-road speeds mostly above the 4L range you'll be happy to have LSD. BLD has a delay. Watch the video above. LSD doesn't.
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:21 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by guppy View Post
No wonder car salesman try to feed me BS when I am at the dealership.
There are some completely misinformed, 180 degrees off, upside down opinions here.
Holly redbilly I can't believe how misled you are.
Traction control concerns wheel spin...you can mash the gas to the floor or abracadabra your right foot any way you want but traction control is going to remove power to that wheel so it does not spin. All great unless you have an 18 wheeler rapidly growing larger in your rearview mirror while your jeep gradually accelerates forward at a pace so as to not spin your single rear drive wheel.
I am not going to go on and on, but simply said, you need to go drive a jeep with anti-spin on a wet day, snow day, or ice day.
If you don't think you need it, or don't think you want it, you never drove a vehicle with it.
Do you or your wife have LSD on every vehicle in your household? Do you have it on the family mini van?

BLD is only part of traction control. You can turn traction control off but BLD is always on.

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