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Old 06-20-2013, 07:30 PM   #61
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Get the LSD...

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Old 06-20-2013, 07:31 PM   #62
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It's amazing that the common opinion here is that a Jeep has to have LSD for daily driving because you are don't have it you are going to die a terrible death! Why is a Jeep any different from a mini van or any other vehicle for daily 2WD driving? Does a mini van have LSD? Does the mini van driven in all weather conditions?

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Old 06-20-2013, 07:50 PM   #63
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It's amazing that the common opinion here is that a Jeep has to have LSD for daily driving because you are don't have it you are going to die a terrible death! Why is a Jeep any different from a mini van or any other vehicle for daily 2WD driving? Does a mini van have LSD? Does the mini van driven in all weather conditions?
Do mini vans come with an LSD option? who the hell cares. I would rather have a good LSD than an open diff, plain and simple. Honestly I would rather have a locker.
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:02 PM   #64
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It's amazing that the common opinion here is that a Jeep has to have LSD for daily driving because you are don't have it you are going to die a terrible death! Why is a Jeep any different from a mini van or any other vehicle for daily 2WD driving? Does a mini van have LSD? Does the mini van driven in all weather conditions?

Not as important with FWD as you're pulling rather than pushing. It results in torque steer rather than you going around in a circle.

BLD doesn't provide the same function as an LSD at all. Plenty of cars and eLSDs that rely on the brakes -- similar to the jeep system -- but whereas the jeep system performs about 1 calculation a minute the eLSD circuity performs thousands per second to control braking at rear wheels. This is oft combined with traction control that goes beyond cutting the throttle -- which it will only do in extreme cases, but otherwise modulates the brakes at all 4 corners to prevent spin outs.

eLSD -- activates in fractions of a second to control brakes at drive wheels
Traction control:
a) stability -- activates in fractions of a second to control brakes at all wheels to prevent rotation of car
b) throttle -- cuts throttle if eLSD and stability kicks in
BLD -- activates in seconds for free wheel spin condition (result of open diff) to brake that wheel and force power to other; like an eLSD but not nearly as capable or acceptable for on-road driving. Watch the video i posted, it takes ages.
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
It's amazing that the common opinion here is that a Jeep has to have LSD for daily driving because you are don't have it you are going to die a terrible death! Why is a Jeep any different from a mini van or any other vehicle for daily 2WD driving? Does a mini van have LSD? Does the mini van driven in all weather conditions?


wow this is terrible I was in a hurry...let me clean this up.

It's amazing that the common opinion here is that a Jeep has to have LSD for daily driving because if you don't have it you are going to die a terrible death! Why is a Jeep any different from a mini van or any other vehicle for daily 2WD driving? Does a mini van have LSD? Isn't the mini van driven in all weather conditions?
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Old 06-20-2013, 08:19 PM   #66
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Not as important with FWD as you're pulling rather than pushing. It results in torque steer rather than you going around in a circle.

BLD doesn't provide the same function as an LSD at all. Plenty of cars and eLSDs that rely on the brakes -- similar to the jeep system -- but whereas the jeep system performs about 1 calculation a minute the eLSD circuity performs thousands per second to control braking at rear wheels. This is oft combined with traction control that goes beyond cutting the throttle -- which it will only do in extreme cases, but otherwise modulates the brakes at all 4 corners to prevent spin outs.

eLSD -- activates in fractions of a second to control brakes at drive wheels
Traction control:
a) stability -- activates in fractions of a second to control brakes at all wheels to prevent rotation of car
b) throttle -- cuts throttle if eLSD and stability kicks in
BLD -- activates in seconds for free wheel spin condition (result of open diff) to brake that wheel and force power to other; like an eLSD but not nearly as capable or acceptable for on-road driving.
Watch the video i posted, it takes ages.
The guy in the video recommends Traction control/BLD for on road driving.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:00 PM   #67
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Interesting thread. I had a factory LSD on my 2013. Driving in the snow last winter was fine, but I went ahead and had a TT installed in the rear. For lack of a better word I noticed my Jeep was much more sure footed. When others were slipping and sliding I accelerated straight ahead. Making turns or lane changes felt like I was driving on dry pavement.

I feel much more confident with my TT over the factory LSD and I highly recommend one, but the factory LSD isn't bad and worth the money IMO.
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:49 PM   #68
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The guy in the video recommends Traction control/BLD for on road driving.

What does that have to do with a mechanical LSD that works instantly unlike Chrysler's slow computer?

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Old 06-20-2013, 11:11 PM   #69
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I once bought a truck without LSD when I was young and didn't know any better. After cursing trying to get it started from a red light, up hill, in the rain, I swore I'd never ever buy another rear wheel drive vehicle without LSD. It makes driving in slick conditions so much easier.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:12 PM   #70
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Interesting thread. I had a factory LSD on my 2013. Driving in the snow last winter was fine, but I went ahead and had a TT installed in the rear. For lack of a better word I noticed my Jeep was much more sure footed. When others were slipping and sliding I accelerated straight ahead. Making turns or lane changes felt like I was driving on dry pavement.

I feel much more confident with my TT over the factory LSD and I highly recommend one, but the factory LSD isn't bad and worth the money IMO.
Are you talking about the Detroit TruTrac up there? How much did it cost for the whole job?
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:21 PM   #71
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Thank you for your answer! And how about the Rubi with lockers disengaged? It has still the electronic safety stuff. But as I understoodvthis thread so far, theyr "help" is not much appreciated as it brakes for traction and takes away power when needed.

I mean, those engineers must habe thought something when they took out the LSD option... but what?
JK Rubi's are open diffs when not engaged. Every Wrangler has all of the electronic, brake assisted nannies.....so you will be able to get where you are going. But a Rubi is meant for the most rugged of terrain, where lockers and MT tires are more important than LSD. I also think Jeep wanted to save money by going with lockers only in the JK, and use "software" to try to mimic LSD....but that is just my opinion.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:26 PM   #72
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JK Rubi's are open diffs when not engaged. Every Wrangler has all of the electronic, brake assisted nannies.....so you will be able to get where you are going. But a Rubi is meant for the most rugged of terrain, where lockers and MT tires are more important than LSD. I also think Jeep wanted to save money by going with lockers only in the JK, and use "software" to try to mimic LSD....but that is just my opinion.
Surely. But the computer in the JK is pathetic, too, which makes the nannies useless in terms of the reaction times needed for a functional LSD.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:06 AM   #73
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^I agree....many times I despise the nanny. One of the benefits of LSD (even the fairly weak Trac-Lok) is that it holds off the nanny a bit longer. Your wheels will hook up for the nanny kicks in...or at least not kick in as hard and as long because you have power going to both wheels, thus a greater and quicker torque transfer.

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As n00g7 mentioned, mini vans (as most other vehicles these days) are FWD. Different ballgame altogether. Heck...half the vehicles out nowadays have some AWD option anyway.

Besides, no one said you were going to die a horrible death without it. What everyone is trying to tell you is that BLD (or to an extent, traction control) is not a substitute for LSD when on the street. I mean come one, this is simple. The computer is applying the brakes to transfer torque when you are trying to accelerate. That should tell you that BLD may not be what you need in certain times on the street.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:13 AM   #74
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Do you or your wife have LSD on every vehicle in your household? Do you have it on the family mini van?

BLD is only part of traction control. You can turn traction control off but BLD is always on.
I guess you did not read my previous posts.
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2009 JKU Rubicon no anti-spin does have your BLD.
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Before buying my 13 I test drove a Rubicon (no anti-spin) and a JKU with anti-spin. Dealer had an overflow lot that is not paved and had some good sized snow plow berms. Drove both thru the snow berm. The Rubicon got stuck in 2wd no problem once I selected 4wd. The JKU in the same berm with anti-spin drove thru in 2wd.
This is not why I bought it. When its wet/slick pavement, and I want to step on the gas, I want the vehicle to accelerate. PERIOD. Not spin, not depower via the traction control. And if your BLD is kicking in then you have already felt the impact of traction control. If your answer to that is to turn off the traction control, well then your tire may be spinning but you still are not going any where fast. The only real answer is to use 4wd which will work.
And then your up to speed looking for the next opportunity to shift back to 2wd....non of which is necessary with anti-spin.
Previous 5 vehicles were all 4wd pickups and all had LSD's.
Sorry, never owned a mini van.
If you want to jump on the gas and get going your BLD is not going to help much...after all the first word is brake.
Like I said if your happy with what you got that is all that matters.
If you never have had it and don't know what your missing then it is all good.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:44 AM   #75
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Why is a Jeep any different from a mini van or any other vehicle for daily 2WD driving? Does a mini van have LSD? Isn't the mini van driven in all weather conditions?
The difference is a Jeep is a RWD vehicle, whereas a minivan is FWD. Oftentimes in a RWD vehicle, you want/need/anticipate the rear wheels to keep on spinning.
That being said, traction control on any platform irritates me more than not. I've had 4-5 vehicles now with it (both FWD and RWD) and if there's a deactivate switch, it's the first thing I flip once I turn the key- even before the radio.
I can't tell you guys how many times traction control has almost gotten me run over by bogging down when otherwise I would have had plenty of time to merge.
Interesting thread. I just bought a new JKU sport w/ the LSD and 3.73s; I was wondering how the Mopar compared to the Detroit TruTrac. Still going to put ARBs in the front eventually; but I didn't know if the DTT was worth the cost over the rear factory LSD. I'll probably end up waiting till the clutch plates wear out before I have to choose.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:27 AM   #76
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I mean come one, this is simple. The computer is applying the brakes to transfer torque when you are trying to accelerate. That should tell you that BLD may not be what you need in certain times on the street.
If a wheel is in the air spinning, on ice spinning or on any slippery surface spinning it is providing 0 torque or forward momentum to the vehicle!

BLD senses this and will apply slight braking action only to the spinning wheel (that is providing 0 torque or forward momentum to the vehicle) that transfers torque to the other wheel to get the vehicle moving. Once the spinning wheel (that is providing 0 torque or forward momentum) gains traction (stops free spinning) there is no braking action applied to that wheel. Then both wheels supply torque to move the vehicle.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:01 AM   #77
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The difference is a Jeep is a RWD vehicle, whereas a minivan is FWD. Oftentimes in a RWD vehicle, you want/need/anticipate the rear wheels to keep on spinning.
That being said, traction control on any platform irritates me more than not. I've had 4-5 vehicles now with it (both FWD and RWD) and if there's a deactivate switch, it's the first thing I flip once I turn the key- even before the radio.
I can't tell you guys how many times traction control has almost gotten me run over by bogging down when otherwise I would have had plenty of time to merge.
Interesting thread. I just bought a new JKU sport w/ the LSD and 3.73s; I was wondering how the Mopar compared to the Detroit TruTrac. Still going to put ARBs in the front eventually; but I didn't know if the DTT was worth the cost over the rear factory LSD. I'll probably end up waiting till the clutch plates wear out before I have to choose.
When i swapped ring gears i Also swapped from the mopar lsd to the TruTrac. Its really solid on and pdf the road. The rearend almost wants to "stear" the jeep for me at times. It actually took some getting used to
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:14 AM   #78
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I guess my mini van analogy went over everyone's head. My point was that the overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road don't have LSD, the mini van was just one example. These vehicles are driven in all weather conditions everyday without incident. So my question is.....Why would a Jeep which has superior handling capabilities to the "normal" vehicle need LSD?

The "die a terrible death" comment was used to just illustrate the complete reverence LSD has with some people.

Bottom line......the OP's original question was, did he need LSD to mall crawl and to transport his kids in a new Jeep he was contemplating buying. The answer is ....NO.

I would ask the OP what is he driving now to get the kids around? Does he need LSD in his current vehicle to get the kids from point A to B? Is he having problems getting around in a non LSD vehicle? If you don't need LSD in your current vehicle....why would you need LSD in a Jeep?
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:23 AM   #79
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I guess my mini van analogy went over everyone's head. My point was that the overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road don't have LSD, the mini van was just one example. These vehicles are driven in all weather conditions everyday without incident. So my question is.....Why would a Jeep which has superior handling capabilities to the "normal" vehicle need LSD?

The "die a terrible death" comment was used to just illustrate the complete reverence LSD has with some people.

Bottom line......the OP's original question was, did he need LSD to mall crawl and to transport his kids in a new Jeep he was contemplating buying. The answer is ....NO.

I would ask the OP what is he driving now to get the kids around? Does he need LSD in his current vehicle to get the kids from point A to B? Is he having problems getting around in a non LSD vehicle? If you don't need LSD in your current vehicle....why would you need LSD in a Jeep?
I guess the minivan does not need high quality windshield wipers or any better than the minimum quality brake pads either. No need for anything but the most basic cheap tires the dealer has in stock either, I mean 99% of the time those will be fine too. Point is an LSD provides far more advantage than you give them credit for at a rather reasonable added price. It blows me away that folks are willing to pay more for the leather seats, heated seats, or a built in NAV system than they are willing to pay for something that will keep their vehicle driving safely in poor conditions.

So keep your computer controlled BLD and be happy, and allow us to understand and enjoy the benefits of our LSDs.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:46 AM   #80
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If a wheel is in the air spinning, on ice spinning or on any slippery surface spinning it is providing 0 torque or forward momentum to the vehicle!

BLD senses this and will apply slight braking action only to the spinning wheel (that is providing 0 torque or forward momentum to the vehicle) that transfers torque to the other wheel to get the vehicle moving. Once the spinning wheel (that is providing 0 torque or forward momentum) gains traction (stops free spinning) there is no braking action applied to that wheel. Then both wheels supply torque to move the vehicle.
You're misunderstanding the consequence of applying the brake to the free spinning wheel. It's still fighting the wheel revolutions that the engine desires and that drains power. The brake is fighting something--and that something is engine power.

More importantly though, the wheel doesn't stop once the spinning wheel "gains traction." The jeep does not and cannot know when that wheel gains traction.

It guesses and releases. If the release is before you're out of your traction problem, then it regrabs after some more spinning. The overall effect is that you start moving, then stop and/or start sliding backwards until it regrabs.

If the release happens late after you've already gained traction, the overall effect is that you spend a few seconds just powering through a wheel that's frozen in place even after it's gained traction. This requires more throttle, which ends up being too much throttle after the BLD releases causing a surge forward.

I'm telling you--like I told you in the other thread--it works, but it can be a herky, jerky experience that can feel a bit dangerous depending on the scenario. An LSD would progress much more smoothly.

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I guess my mini van analogy went over everyone's head. My point was that the overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road don't have LSD, the mini van was just one example. These vehicles are driven in all weather conditions everyday without incident. So my question is.....Why would a Jeep which has superior handling capabilities to the "normal" vehicle need LSD?

The "die a terrible death" comment was used to just illustrate the complete reverence LSD has with some people.

Bottom line......the OP's original question was, did he need LSD to mall crawl and to transport his kids in a new Jeep he was contemplating buying. The answer is ....NO.

I would ask the OP what is he driving now to get the kids around? Does he need LSD in his current vehicle to get the kids from point A to B? Is he having problems getting around in a non LSD vehicle? If you don't need LSD in your current vehicle....why would you need LSD in a Jeep?
No one is saying that he needs an LSD. And in the jeep world, LSDs are certainly not held in reverance--they're the weaker stepchild of lockers, which are indeed held in some reverance.

People are reacting so strongly to your position not because of reverance, but because your position is, frankly, shocking. You're new so I don't think you realize it, but you're treating the topic like it's up for debate--and it's not. It's like arguing that you don't need airbags because we have seatbelts.

What people are saying is that an LSD is better to have than not, whether on or offroad, whether driving the kids around or climbing an embankment. That's a fact. Period. It's objective and irrefutable. If you don't understand why that's true, then start doing some research on how differentials work--but quit debating it because you're wrong.

And incidentally, for $295 in a ~$30k purchase, the factory LSD is a no-brainer. So if somebody asks you, "Should I order the LSD when I buy my Wrangler?" You should say, "Yes." Are they going to die as a direct result of not having it if they don't order it? Almost certainly not. But should they get it regardless of how they intend to use their jeep? Yes.

Why is any of that so hard for you to accept?
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:48 AM   #81
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Bottom line......the OP's original question was, did he need LSD to mall crawl and to transport his kids in a new Jeep he was contemplating buying. The answer is ....NO.

I would ask the OP what is he driving now to get the kids around? Does he need LSD in his current vehicle to get the kids from point A to B? Is he having problems getting around in a non LSD vehicle? If you don't need LSD in your current vehicle....why would you need LSD in a Jeep?
I'm the OP. My original question was not whether I "need" the LSD but rather if it's a good safety feature to have. I don't need LSD nor do I need airbags, traction control, safety belts, etc. But, I want them. If an option can provide a significant safety benefit even just once, they're something I'd want to have.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:02 AM   #82
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I'm the OP. My original question was not whether I "need" the LSD but rather if it's a good safety feature to have. I don't need LSD nor do I need airbags, traction control, safety belts, etc. But, I want them. If an option can provide a significant safety benefit even just once, they're something I'd want to have.
Your answer is YES.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:07 AM   #83
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I am a noob to Jeeps.... Does the traction control work against LSD in rainy conditions? Does anyone turn off TC in rain or snow?
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:12 AM   #84
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The "die a terrible death" comment was used to just illustrate the complete reverence LSD has with some people.

Exhibit A.....

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So keep your computer controlled BLD and be happy, and allow us to understand and enjoy the benefits of our LSDs.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:19 AM   #85
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I guess my mini van analogy went over everyone's head. My point was that the overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road don't have LSD, the mini van was just one example. These vehicles are driven in all weather conditions everyday without incident.
Not it didn't, there is a fundamental difference between front wheel drive and rear wheel drive. Front wheel drive vehicles experience a great amount of torque steer, the effects of which are compounded using an LSD. Because FWD is PULLING from the wheels that control direction rather than pushing from the ones that don't, there is no valid comparison to draw.

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Why would a Jeep which has superior handling capabilities to the "normal" vehicle need LSD?
Superior handling, what?

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Bottom line......the OP's original question was, did he need LSD to mall crawl and to transport his kids in a new Jeep he was contemplating buying. The answer is ....NO.
He doesn't need ABS, air bags, a bumper, tires with siping or roll cage either then. Might as well cut out all the safety and handling features. ABS is to stopping on pavement as an LSD is to going forward on pavement, it's a safety feature IMO.

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I would ask the OP what is he driving now to get the kids around? Does he need LSD in his current vehicle to get the kids from point A to B? Is he having problems getting around in a non LSD vehicle? If you don't need LSD in your current vehicle....why would you need LSD in a Jeep?
I don't know, why does the vast majority of modern RWD vehicles feature either 1) a functional mechanical LSD or 2) a functional eLSD (jeeps BLD is NOT THIS, as explained previously, though you probably ignored that explanation too -- brake LOCK would be a hint).

If the wrangler had a functional eLSD it wouldn't be as big a deal, but it doesn't, and therefore the mechanical LSD should be the first option you tick off, ESPECIALLY FOR A MALL CRAWLER.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:23 AM   #86
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I'm the OP. My original question was not whether I "need" the LSD but rather if it's a good safety feature to have. I don't need LSD nor do I need airbags, traction control, safety belts, etc. But, I want them. If an option can provide a significant safety benefit even just once, they're something I'd want to have.
My retort again would be....I'm guessing but you probably have been driving your entire life without LSD why NOW when to are buying a Jeep are you considering LSD?

If you want LSD then buy it, it looks like you are leaning that way. It's not going to be a disadvantage. That's why it's an option!
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:28 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
My retort again would be....I'm guessing but you probably have been driving your entire life without LSD why NOW when to are buying a Jeep are you considering LSD?

I'm guessing you have probably lived your entire life without having a cuban cigar, might as well not have one now...

Common, this logic is terrible when the benefits of the option are clear.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:32 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by NYJETS View Post
I am a noob to Jeeps.... Does the traction control work against LSD in rainy conditions? Does anyone turn off TC in rain or snow?
Mechanical LSD will engage before the electronics. It, in a sense, holds them off.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:35 AM   #89
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My question is this.
How does the computer apply brake power, with your foot OFF the brake pedle, thus the master cyldiner is not generating any pressure for the brakes to operate on?
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:37 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
My retort again would be....I'm guessing but you probably have been driving your entire life without LSD why NOW when to are buying a Jeep are you considering LSD?
Can you really not understand this?

Why on earth should he not consider it? It's available. It's an advantage in any context over and above how the jeep is otherwise equipped. It's inexpensive. Why should he not consider it merely because he hasn't died as a result of not having one so far?

Are you seriously suggesting that every option you ordered on your jeep--including the option to order a jeep at all--was based entirely and exclusively on your prior needs, rather than your wants, desires, or concerns??

I have had the good fortune of never, ever needing any airbag in any vehicle I have ever owned. They might as well have not been there at all. And yet, when shopping for my jeep, side airbags were a feature that I very much desired. Is that somehow irrational??

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