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Old 06-21-2013, 09:44 AM   #91
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People are reacting so strongly to your position not because of reverance, but because your position is, frankly, shocking. You're new so I don't think you realize it, but you're treating the topic like it's up for debate--and it's not. It's like arguing that you don't need airbags because we have seatbelts.
My "being new" has no relevance in this conversation. I'm not new to driving.
I had a 2002 Dodge 2WD 1500 which I sold when I bought my Jeep. Drove in all weather conditions for 11 years with no LSD...no problems what so ever. Why would I need, want LSD in my Jeep?

Again I have never said LSD is worthless.....which seems to be the general consensus. LSD probably goes add to the functionality of the vehicle but by how much is what I feel is up for debate

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Old 06-21-2013, 09:45 AM   #92
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No need for an lsd

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Old 06-21-2013, 09:48 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by n00g7 View Post
I'm guessing you have probably lived your entire life without having a cuban cigar, might as well not have one now...

Common, this logic is terrible when the benefits of the option are clear.
Good analogy....never have had a Cuban ....don't want one now. Don't need it....don't want it.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:53 AM   #94
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I have had the good fortune of never, ever needing any airbag in any vehicle I have ever owned. They might as well have not been there at all. And yet, when shopping for my jeep, side airbags were a feature that I very much desired. Is that somehow irrational??
Air bags are mandatory standard equipment....LSD is an option! Apples...oranges!
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:55 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by insylem View Post
My question is this.
How does the computer apply brake power, with your foot OFF the brake pedle, thus the master cyldiner is not generating any pressure for the brakes to operate on?
From my understanding BLD works off the ABS sensors.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:00 AM   #96
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The key there in the question is, is it a significant (safety factor). On black top day to day driving, it might even be the opposite. The one in the Jeep is a torque sensing clutch pack. The faster it is spun the tighter the clutch pack engages and transfers more to the wheel. So for example on a road with say a patch of ice under the one wheel, from 0 mph, you might have to give it more juice to engage than say the BLD would require. Once it engages and you are on your way, you need to be aware of it as you can go sideways if not. The BLD on the other hand only requires constant throttle to do its thing. For example at 0 mph and you’re sitting on that same patch of ice with the one wheel, you accelerate to say 1 mph and keep it there, immediately it will kick in and you’re on your way, where again for example, with the LSD, you’re at 0 mph you need to increase to say 5 mph to get in fully engaged and you're on your way. Super subtle obviously but in terms of safety factor on a regular road daily there it is. Off road be it up hill, mud, medium depth snow etc, giving it juice would be a necessity anyway.


Even so they all come with BLD anyway, the LSD reduces the need/usage of the BLD in any condition. The LSD can only do so much and the BLD will come into play if it computes it needs help. But in terms of being a significant safety factor, as a daily driver on tarmac provided you learn how to use it (LSD) and what it will do, you should be okay. In sum as a significant safety factor I would say no.


An interesting demo of LSD vs. BLD vs Locker. The results are interesting to see but not really relevant as all the Jeeps come with BLD.

up a hill:

Air Locker vs LSD vs Traction Control Part 1 - YouTube


on sand:

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Old 06-21-2013, 10:09 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by positrak View Post
The key there in the question is, is it a significant (safety factor). On black top day to day driving, it might even be the opposite. The one in the Jeep is a torque sensing clutch pack. The faster it is spun the tighter the clutch pack engages and transfers more to the wheel. So for example on a road with say a patch of ice under the one wheel, from 0 mph, you might have to give it more juice to engage than say the BLD would require. Once it engages and you are on your way, you need to be aware of it as you can go sideways if not. The BLD on the other hand only requires constant throttle to do its thing. For example at 0 mph and you’re sitting on that same patch of ice with the one wheel, you accelerate to say 1 mph and keep it there, immediately it will kick in and you’re on your way, where again for example, with the LSD, you’re at 0 mph you need to increase to say 5 mph to get in fully engaged and you're on your way. Super subtle obviously but in terms of safety factor on a regular road daily there it is. Off road be it up hill, mud, medium depth snow etc, giving it juice would be a necessity anyway.


Even so they all come with BLD anyway, the LSD reduces the need/usage of the BLD in any condition. The LSD can only do so much and the BLD will come into play if it computes it needs help. But in terms of being a significant safety factor, as a daily driver on tarmac provided you learn how to use it (LSD) and what it will do, you should be okay. In sum as a significant safety factor I would say no.


An interesting demo of LSD vs. BLD vs Locker. The results are interesting to see but not really relevant as all the Jeeps come with BLD.

up a hill:

Air Locker vs LSD vs Traction Control Part 1 - YouTube


on sand:

Positrak, I guess you just don't understand.......sarcasm
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:18 AM   #98
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Air bags are mandatory standard equipment....LSD is an option! Apples...oranges!
Side air bags are optional....

I've never been in an accident where I needed side airbags.

Side airbags were a must have for me.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:18 AM   #99
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Maybe a better summary would be: on pavement, in light conditions - snow, rain, ice etc. the BLD is "fool proof" whereas with an LSD in those same conditions you will want to inform the uninformed driver (wife daughter son etc.) that the vehicle has it and to be aware if it.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:26 AM   #100
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I think you are missing the point. LSD is not designed to help with off-road situations where you have wheels in the air, you need lockers there. It is designed to help with situations where the vehicle is on a slick surface(mud/water/ice). You can poo poo on it if you want, but the majority of people find real value in a LSD in a rear wheel drive vehicle. I have owned 1 truck without LSD, and swore to never buy another RWD vehicle without LSD ever again. It was that frustrating when trying to start on wet pavement, driving in slick Georgia red clay, etc. that I would never own another vehicle without it.

Trying to argue that LSD does not improve traction in slick conditions is like trying to argue that 4WD doesn't improve traction. I have driven 2WD trucks with decent BFG A/T's and LSD places that most would consider 4WD only. LSD is also always on, so there is no enabling it when you might need it, or wishing it was turned on when you start slipping.

Maybe your driving conditions don't warrant it, but at roughly $250 added to invoice on a new Jeep vs over $1000 to install it aftermarket, its not even worth the risk to not get it imho. I personally cannot imagine too many people have driving conditions where it would not provide any benefit either. Sand, mud, ice, wet pavement.....
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:30 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by positrak View Post
Maybe a better summary would be: on pavement, in light conditions - snow, rain, ice etc. the BLD is "fool proof" whereas with an LSD in those same conditions you will want to inform the uninformed driver (wife daughter son etc.) that the vehicle has it and to be aware if it.
The thing is, the traction control/ESP would kick in before something got out of hand. Plus, we are talking about Trac-Lok...which is a mild LSD.

This isn't stand alone Traction Control vs stand alone LSD.

It is Traction Control only vs LSD plus Traction Control.

With Traction Control as a back-stop, there is litteraly no downside to ordering factory LSD, unless you plan on going with lockers or a better LSD down the road.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:37 AM   #102
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Wow, such debate over Limited Slip...

I've had 2, in 2wd Dakota's. My 92' was such a fun truck with the Magnum 318 and a 3.55 LSD... my 02' had 4.7 & 3.55 LSD. I'm used to a posi rear end and I loved it in my trucks. Then I went to a FWD Altima and it was so different, torque steer and threw me for a loop. I got used to it. Then went to an AWD G.Cherokee. That thing was great.

I'm sure a LSD in a JK would be so much easier to drive compared to a 2wd truck (more weight in the rear). I know I want one and those who are comparing a FWD vehicle to a RWD are out to lunch. Two different animals.

I never lost grip on wet pavement with my LSD in my 2wd (unless I wanted to). I really don't see the dangers (mentioned by some) of having one if you know how to drive.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:40 AM   #103
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That's it. the BLD will correct whatever the LSD fails (mech or driver error) which amounts to them being the same thing, and therefore the combo cannot actually be significantly safer in DD on blacktop in mild conditions. The LSD is obviously a more agressive mechanical control than the BLD for usage off road. I would also say get it if you can even if you don't plan on going off road. But again for his specified vehicle usage I can't agree its a significant safety improvement at all. And I say that having driven a Rubi in 2h and 4h inner city in two record snow falls with zero problem at all.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:49 AM   #104
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That's it. the BLD will correct whatever the LSD fails (mech or driver error) which amounts to them being the same thing, and therefore the combo cannot actually be significantly safer in DD on blacktop in mild conditions. The LSD is obviously a more agressive mechanical control than the BLD for usage off road. I would also say get it if you can even if you don't plan on going off road. But again for his specified vehicle usage I can't agree its a significant safety improvement at all. And I say that having driven a Rubi in 2h and 4h inner city in two record snow falls with zero problem at all.
But.... they're not the same thing because of how the BLD is implemented. It's a substitute for lockers offroad, not an LSD for on-road conditions. If the BLD performed like an eLSD they wouldn't offer a mechanical LSD as an option.

The best combination for mall crawling is stability/traction control + LSD. The BLD is the unnecessary component.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:54 AM   #105
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Don't know about that. In the last 2 record snow falls, the traction control came on exactly once for me, that in a 2 ft unploughed road and I intentionally floored it and threw it around. Otherwise driving normally through it, it did not engage while the BLD did its job. You have to be pretty agressive to engage it.

Correct that to 2ft + Rubi's M/T, 2 door weight variance, slight height variance, of course. Too many different variables to try to acertain OP's needs, for me the Rubi performed stellar, suprisingly so, with just BLD. Not even sure OP has even bought a jeep yet and which one he is even looking at.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:05 AM   #106
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Don't know about that. In the last 2 record snow falls, the traction control came on exactly once for me, that in a 3 ft unploughed road and I intentionally floored it and threw it around. Otherwise driving normally through it, it did not engage while the BLD did its job. You have to be pretty agressive to engage it.
That's because stability control is for preventing the vehicle from skidding sideways based on steering angle and accelerometer measurements. Largely irrelevant unless "throwing it around". Everytime you waited for the BLD to "do it's job" is when you would have already been moving due to the LSD. BLD is meant to solve the open-open problem of not having lockers off-road. It really has no place in an on-pavement discussion regarding the benefits of having a mechanical LSD.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:10 AM   #107
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Traction control and LSD are not the same thing. Unless the driver is a complete fool and guns the engine in snow/ice/rain (where traction control/ESP will kick in), LSD will help you achieve and maintain momentum/traction faster.

Directly from the OM


TRAC-LOK
REAR AXLE — IF EQUIPPED
The Trac-Lok


rear axle provides a constant driving force
to both rear wheels and reduces wheel spin caused by the
loss of traction at one driving wheel. If traction differs
between the two rear wheels, the differential automatically
proportions the usable torque by providing more
torque to the wheel that has traction.
Trac-Lok

is especially helpful during slippery driving
conditions.With both rear wheels on a slippery surface, a
slight application of the accelerator will supply maximum
traction.


Traction Control System (TCS)
This system monitors the amount of wheel spin of each of
the driven wheels. If wheel spin is detected, brake
pressure is applied to the slipping wheel(s) to provide
enhanced acceleration and stability. A feature of the TCS
system functions similar to a limited slip differential and
controls the wheel spin across a driven axle. If one wheel
on a driven axle is spinning faster than the other, the
system will apply the brake of the spinning wheel. This
will allow more engine torque to be applied to the wheel
that is not spinning. This feature remains active even if
TCS and ESC are in either the “Partial Off” or “Full Off”
modes. Refer to “Electronic Stability Control (ESC)” in
this section for further information.

--------------
Trac-Lok will kick in before LSD, allowing you to get moving faster.

One puts power to both wheels and smoothy transfers torque.
One brakes the spinning wheel in order to tranfer torque, and you have to overcome the torque of the braked wheel as well. It is brake/release/brake/release until you get moving.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:13 AM   #108
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I promise you there was no waiting for the BLD to do its job. I was the king of the road against anything and everything that dared to be out there.

I have Jeeps trac lok in my other Jeep which I haven't driven in 2 years. If I recall correctly, you'd need to give it some juice, then you would physically feel the trac lok engage, then the jeep would hunker down and dig into the snow and then take off. Did not feel this at all with the BLD. Take off with BLD was/is shockingly better.

as above
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:26 AM   #109
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I promise you there was no waiting for the BLD to do its job. I was the king of the road against anything and everything that dared to be out there.

I have Jeeps trac lok in my other Jeep which I haven't driven in 2 years. If I recall correctly, you'd need to give it some juice, then you would physically feel the trac lok engage, then the jeep would hunker down and dig into the snow and then take off. Did not feel this at all with the BLD. Take off with BLD was/is shockingly better.

as above
You may have just not run into a scenario where the BLD engaged.

You will wait for it to engage, and you will wait for it to disengage. In the interim, you goof with the throttle as the amount of power going to the wheels varies when it turns on/off and when you have traction or not.

Because it's computer and sensor driven, no other situation is possible.

If you didn't experience this, the BLD wasn't functioning IMO.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:28 AM   #110
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BLD does not care how fast the wheels are turning, just that they are turning at the same speed.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:31 AM   #111
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Snow/Ice/Mud you should be in 4wd anyway, in my opinion...
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:33 AM   #112
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I promise you there was no waiting for the BLD to do its job. I was the king of the road against anything and everything that dared to be out there.

I have Jeeps trac lok in my other Jeep which I haven't driven in 2 years. If I recall correctly, you'd need to give it some juice, then you would physically feel the trac lok engage, then the jeep would hunker down and dig into the snow and then take off. Did not feel this at all with the BLD. Take off with BLD was/is shockingly better.

as above
I agree with you on how the LSD feels. You step on the gas, you can feel one will spin then a split second later, the other wheel "hooks up"...all while never killing your momentum.

But traction conrtol? There is waiting...
My last Jeep had open diffs and traction control (and we all have traction control in our JK's).
It is herky jerky, just like every video of it that has been shown. It is even worse when the computer decides to reduce engine power. You have to give the vehicle gas because you have to overcome the force of your own brakes. The sytems goes from side to side, spin/lock/spin/lock....that is how it the system works because that is how you have to fool an open diff until you can get equal traction.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:35 AM   #113
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BLD does not care how fast the wheels are turning, just that they are turning at the same speed.
Yes, and that is the EXACT problem so many of us have discussed when you are trying to merge into traffic. Traction control does not care that you are moving at 8 mph when you want to be accelerating to 25 mph.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:36 AM   #114
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Did not experience this at all. 2 wheel drive in snow open diff, 4 wheel drive in snow open diff. Got to point z via bcdefgh...in the city all winter long, quicker faster than anyone else. Never once going sideways unless intentionally nor waiting for anything to engage or feeling it.

Pretty sure we all have the same mechanics and electronics in our jeeps. Maybe out snow is different.

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You may have just not run into a scenario where the BLD engaged.

You will wait for it to engage, and you will wait for it to disengage. In the interim, you goof with the throttle as the amount of power going to the wheels varies when it turns on/off and when you have traction or not.

Because it's computer and sensor driven, no other situation is possible.

If you didn't experience this, the BLD wasn't functioning IMO.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:39 AM   #115
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Seems to be mass confusion going on here, BLD vs Traction Control. MTH you mean traction control? Not BLD.

BLD is the "cheap" electronic LSD funcitioning in miliseconds. Traction control you got to be pretty agressive to invoke it and yes there is delay before/after.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:42 AM   #116
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Yes, and that is the EXACT problem so many of us have discussed when you are trying to merge into traffic. Traction control does not care that you are moving at 8 mph when you want to be accelerating to 25 mph.
Then that's a problem with traction control not BLD. If your Jeep is equipped with LSD you also have traction control. You will have the same problem.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:12 PM   #117
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Then that's a problem with traction control not BLD. If your Jeep is equipped with LSD you also have traction control. You will have the same problem.
Not quite...

Every Wrangler has traction control and BLD is a function of traction control....but LSD allows both wheels to hook up (and allows me to keep my momentum) BEFORE traction control kicks in.

The problem I had was in my Libby (when in 2WD), which did not have LSD.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:25 PM   #118
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BLD is the off-road programming of Traction Control. Traction Control is the "wheel spin" part of ESP/ESC (Electronic Stability Program/Control).
The link to the Chrysler Engineer discusses BLD in the context of off-roading.

Traction Control System (TCS)
This system monitors the amount of wheel spin of each of
the driven wheels. If wheel spin is detected, brake
pressure is applied to the slipping wheel(s) to provide
enhanced acceleration and stability. A feature of the TCS
system functions similar to a limited slip differential and
controls the wheel spin across a driven axle. If one wheel
on a driven axle is spinning faster than the other, the
system will apply the brake of the spinning wheel. This
will allow more engine torque to be applied to the wheel
that is not spinning. This feature remains active even if
TCS and ESC are in either the “Partial Off” or “Full Off”
modes. Refer to “Electronic Stability Control (ESC)” in

this section for further information.

This is from Jeep:
Available for the first time with Jeep Wrangler models are Brake Lock Differentials (BLDs), which are incorporated into the Electronic Stability Program (ESP) algorithm. BLDs apply braking force to an axle's spinning wheel in order to provide an equal amount of torque to each wheel and deliver greater traction for rock-crawling over severe off-road terrain. A separate set of BLD calibrations is designed for off-road operation and automatically activates when driving in 4 Low
Electronic Stability Program For the first time in a Wrangler, the all-new Jeep Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited come standard with Chrysler Group's Electronic Stability Program (ESP) – providing significant benefits in accident-avoidance driving situations. ESP helps the driver maintain vehicle directional stability by applying selective braking and engine control, within the limits of available traction, to maintain the vehicle's intended course. Jeep Wrangler's ESP system includes [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]Hydraulic [COLOR=blue !important]Brake[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] Assist, Traction Control, Brake Lock Differentials and Electronic Roll Mitigation.

From the engineer:
Just to get this out of the way; from the Jeep perspective, BLD is not a substitute for locking differentials. It is a means to greatly expand the off road capability of vehicles that were not purchased with or do not offer locking differentials.
A Jeep vehicle with BLD will negotiate almost any obstacle or driving situation that a similar vehicle with locking differential will. BLD does require a change in driving style and more torque to negotiate the obstacle.
We have worked very hard to make the BLD on Jeep vehicles work well off-road and reduce, and in most cases eliminate, the complaints about brake based traction control.

--------

Think of it is BLD = off-road, and Traction Control = on-road.
Or...BLD is the function and Traction Control is the system.

Regardless....BLD/Traction Control works by applying the brakes to the spinnnng wheel so that power is transfered to the other wheel. It isn't smooth because you have to overcome to force of the braked wheel, not spin the unbraked wheel (or the brakes will be applied to that wheel), while releasing the brakes from the braked wheel so that both wheels spin at the same speed.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:30 PM   #119
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First of all realize you are asking this question in a forum full of off road junkies! But, understand this: a LSD is a poor choice for a city only Jeep because by design it sacrifices vehicle directional control for traction.

Example: Sitting at a light in rain wanting to turn right, light turns green, you turn right and get on the gas but it's oily/slippery!

LSD - good chance both rear tires will spin and you will fishtail and in a Jeep that can happen quickly - might end up doing a 360
Open - one tire spins and you just keep going whichever direction you have the wheel pointed...not very quickly, but you never lose directional control of the vehicle.

Key point is an open differential will only allow one tire on an axle to become "disconnected" from the pavement..a LSD will allow both and actually encourages it.

The videos posted of the "garbage" computer controlled differential BRD are irrelevant...this is for a city vehicle, not climbing sand dunes or snow mountains or boulders which do not exist in the middle of a parking lot.

To sum it up, an open differential will ALWAYS be safer when driving because it will never take away directional control from the driver. In certain circumstances you may get stuck but the situations where the open differential + traction control + BRD gets stuck where an LSD doesn't are extremely rare (can't really think of one personally but I'll assume they exist) but do not justify the inherent instability of an LSD for city driving.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:41 PM   #120
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I wonder if some of you guys even drive your jeeps offroad. BLD and LSD are not the same at all. I do not want my rig applying brakes AT ANY TIME while I am trying to move forward. I want an LSD or better a locker. It's really not that hard. BLD sucks, plain and simple. It's jerky and rough from what I have seen from other people offroad. Onroad, well I don't see why you want to be braking one tire to help transfer torque to another while on ice... Brakes+ice are bad.

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