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Old 06-03-2013, 05:05 AM   #31
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I don't see how gold coins offer any kind of tax break. They're taxable income just the same as cash. If you pay me one gold coin valued at $1500 for a lift kit that cost me $1300, I still have to pay income tax on $200. There's no escaping the tax man through barter.

The previous poster is right that there wouldn't be sales tax for out of state transactions conducted over the phone, but that's really more a benefit to the buyer than the seller...

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Old 06-03-2013, 10:39 AM   #32
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....there wouldn't be sales tax for out of state transactions conducted over the phone, but that's really more a benefit to the buyer than the seller...
I was wondering if M.C. would have to pay State Tax on the gold coin they receive from the customer, since Bullion is taxed in some states and dollars are not.

"Here's my money, now pay tax on it!....that'd be messed up."

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Old 06-03-2013, 02:28 PM   #33
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California treats a barter transaction as two independent sales for sales tax purposes, and I think California levees sales tax on monetized gold when not bought in bulk. So yeah, assuming this company is in California (didn't bother checking) they would probably have to pay state sales tax on the "purchase" of the gold (based on FMV) and also fed and state income tax on any gain (FMV of gold, minus sales tax, minus their cost for lift kit). So I think this is actually the opposite of a tax loophole, assuming they're reporting properly. I think, as others in this thread have already suggested, they're just hoping to move units using a promotion, and also hoping the gold n vestment might pay off.
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Old 06-03-2013, 04:57 PM   #34
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Time to check the sofa.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:30 PM   #35
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It got you thinking about them for a few mins and others bringing up there name on forums didnt it?
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But will it make someone want to buy or think twice before buying?
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They're thinking long-term...
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I dont see any benefit of someone sending them a coin they purchased vs MC buying coins with the proceeds.
Why We Did It...

Metalcloak's continuous release of new products has spurred intense discussion across the net. Whether the feedback was positive or negative, the discussion was beneficial to all, and, we feel, inspired better and greater product development both from us and others in the industry.

As a company of humble Patriots, we are hoping our public release of the Gold Standard program will spur similar intense discussion on the subject of Gold and Liberty (transversely the Paper Dollar & Tyranny) in this Great Country of ours.

As our press release stated, "Off-road enthusiasts are true Patriots and they recognize the relationship between Gold & Liberty. This is just one more step in our mission to build for their future."

Hopefully this discussion will help to educate many more on this relationship and why we, as a citizenry, must remain vigilant.

"It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Henry Ford
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:31 PM   #36
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Why We Did It...

Metalcloak's continuous release of new products has spurred intense discussion across the net. Whether the feedback was positive or negative, the discussion was beneficial to all, and, we feel, inspired better and greater product development both from us and others in the industry.

As a company of humble Patriots, we are hoping our public release of the Gold Standard program will spur similar intense discussion on the subject of Gold and Liberty (transversely the Paper Dollar & Tyranny) in this Great Country of ours.

As our press release stated, "Off-road enthusiasts are true Patriots and they recognize the relationship between Gold & Liberty. This is just one more step in our mission to build for their future."

Hopefully this discussion will help to educate many more on this relationship and why we, as a citizenry, must remain vigilant.

"It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Henry Ford
This is awesome and yet one more reason I'm getting one of your kits this fall.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:36 PM   #37
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Man I think this could cause trouble....
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the ss wont like this...

ss is sec r et ser vice
We recognize there is some risk in this program and that it would likely draw the attention of various Tax Agencies (Board of Equalization and Franchise Tax Board in our home state of California) and, yes, the IRS.

Since our financial house is in order, we are willing to accept the risk of government scrutiny in order to promote the discussion amongst fellow Patriots of the relationship between gold and individual liberty [conversely fiat paper money (dollar) and tyranny].

"Paper money has had the effect in your state that it will ever have, to ruin commerce, oppress the honest, and open the door to every species of fraud and injustice." "If ever again our nation stumbles upon unfunded paper, it shall surely be like death to our body politic. This country will crash." --George Washington

The fact that there is any chance Metalcloak would be scrutinized by our government for using the original form of Constitutional currency is, in and of itself, the very reason for proceeding with this program.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:44 PM   #38
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Not valid for CA residents though.
We are based in California, and do not yet have a clear-cut answer on how to develop a proper sales tax policy under this program. The confusion was based around how to value the product for the purposes of sales tax. Which of the following was correct?

1. Tax the retail value of the product
2. Tax the discounted product value relative to the spot price of gold on the day of the sale
3. Tax the discounted product value relative to the spot price of gold on the day sales taxes are due.
4. Tax the discounted product price relative to the spot price of gold at the time coin is resold.

While this question can probably be resolved some day in the future, for now, we chose to focus on all those states and customers that can immediately benefit from this program. To our friends in California, we'll do our best.

"Whoever controls the money in any country is master of all its legislation and commerce."
-President James Garfield
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:45 PM   #39
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Quick question: What's the difference between the value of gold and the value of cash?

Gold is just some crap that is found in the earth- it's kind of rare, but not really (compared to plenty of other things found in the earth). One day someone found some of it and decided it was pretty. Lots of other people agreed, and wanted it. The value we attribute to it is entirely fictional.

Similarly, cash is just paper, but lots of people agreed that they wanted it, and the value we attribute to it is fictional in the same way.

I've heard a lot of "patriots" talk about how since the dollar is "not backed by anything," it's worthless. I submit to you that gold is also "not backed by anything," except a collective agreement that it has value. What's the difference? (Obviously not trying to start a fight- I'm honestly trying to understand).
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:53 PM   #40
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Thanks to Metal Cloak for chiming in. Very cool.

Still its important to remember you give up all recourse when you said cash for service. By using a credit card you'll have a chance to reverse that payment if the vendor is grossly negligent such as sending you an incomplete kit and then giving you the run-around afterwards. With a metal coin it comes down to "Huh, what metal coin?".
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Old 06-03-2013, 06:56 PM   #41
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Quick question: What's the difference between the value of gold and the value of cash?

Gold is just some crap that is found in the earth- it's kind of rare, but not really. One day someone found some of it and decided it was pretty. Lots of other people agreed, and wanted it. The value we attribute to it is entirely fictional.

Similarly, cash is just paper, but lots of people agreed that they wanted it, and the value we attribute to it is fictional in the same way.

I've heard a lot of "patriots" talk about how since the dollar is "not backed by anything," it's worthless. I submit to you that gold is also "not backed by anything," except a collective agreement that it has value. What's the difference? (Obviously not trying to start a fight- I'm honestly trying to understand).
Gold and Silver have specific and unique properties that have given it trade value as MONEY for over 6000 years.

a) Gold and Silver are virtually indestructible (they do not corrode or perish like say steel or wheat respectfully)

b) Gold and Silver have limited availability in the form of a substantial cost to mine. In other words it can NOT be printed or digitally created out of thin air like the dollar (Federal Reserve)...it requires labor to extract.

c) The limited availabity allows for the substantial store of wealth or trade value in a small amount of space or weight. For example it would not be practical to carry the equivalent amount of wheat or steel in your pocket to trade for even a good meal.

d) Gold and Silver can be infinitely divided, remelted, reformed into denominations necessary for almost any trade. Unlike diamonds and jewels.

It is actually these unique properties that bind humanity in natural agreement that gold has trade value. Where as fiat unbacked paper currency requires a government/authority/military to establish and control the trade value of the paper.

In other words, gold does not need backing because it IS money. Paper money originally started as a promise note for the exchange of a certain amount of gold or silver. It is no longer even that, it is merely what it is because our government says it is what it is.

The following explanation is admittedly simple, but might make the point.

The Dollar

The $1 bill and the $100 bill are made of the same paper with the only difference being the way the ink is arranged on the paper. Both bills are just a promise by the US Government and Military that they have a trade value for goods.

What is the trade value of a paper dollar if the US Government and Military did not exist?

Gold

1 ounce of gold and 100 ounces of gold have very different, measurable and visible masses. One cannot just scribe a number on gold and create a different trade value (you must obtain more). Gold creation and distruction is not controlled by the whim of any single government. (though unfortunately it can be manipulated by fiat paper investment products)

What is the trade value of gold if the US Government and Military did not exist?

We are not experts on gold, money or currency...we are merely trying to promote the discussion of the relationship between Gold and Individual Liberty. We believe it to be one of the most important topics of our time.

"Inflation [printing of money} is the one form of taxation that can be imposed without legislation."
-Milton Friedman, Nobel Prize winning economist

Thank you for reading.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:24 PM   #42
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Well then....

Would Milton pay cash or coin to MC???
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:23 PM   #43
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I knew there was more to this than meets the eye... schooling the uninformed.

Interesting promo and potential way to beat the system... not so much an internet sales tax loophole (although I wouldn't give up on this idea), but to offer alternative payment methods based on the principles of how we value our currency - which we don't.

A coin dipped in precious metals can be traded for its current market value.. paper or plastic will always be traded at face value. Although I wonder if you walked into a bank with a $50 Gold Liberty, what they would give you in return?

Probably $50 with an engraved picture of Ulysses S. Grant.

Maybe there will be a new "MC Freedom Act" dedicated to your name in the near future.



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Old 06-03-2013, 09:31 PM   #44
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Well then....

Would Milton pay cash or coin to MC???
I don't know about Milton but I would only pay cash, even though I have been buying a little gold and a fair amount of silver over the years I have not sold or traded the first ounce of it. I would rather have something 10 years down the road that I payed 1000 cash for then something I traded 1000 dollars worth of gold for. Odds are it would have cost you a LOT more in the long run if you traded the gold for it. It might take 1500 in cash to equal the same 1000 value while the weight that was worth 1000 bucks originally could now be worth 2000 in cash.

I will not be taking part in this program but am glad that y'all did it for your reasons given earlier about making people aware. Kudos to yah.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:41 PM   #45
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I like the turn this thread has taken, stimulating discussion
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:56 PM   #46
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Those are good reasons why gold works well as a currency as a functional matter, but I still don't understand the perspective that the material has some kind of inherent value. We still just choose to value it, and the degree to which we do so fluctuates on a daily basis. The value of a dollar bill is whatever someone is willing to trade for it, and the same principle applies to gold. I guess I am mainly disagreeing with the contention that "gold IS money" in some way that differs from any other currency. It's only money because we all agree that it is- just like a dollar.

If we all were using gold back in 07, it wouldn't have stopped the subprime mortgage crisis. The value of our homes still would have plummeted, and so in turn would the value of gold. It actually might have been an even more global crisis if everyone in the world depended upon the same currency.

So yeah, I think those are good are good arguments for gold being a more utilitarian currency, but I'm not sure it would be more stable. .. Anyway, good luck with the promotion!
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:30 AM   #47
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but I still don't understand the perspective that the material has some kind of inherent value.
Because it's rare, shiny and warm looking...and I like touching it.



MetalCloak, Thanks for the info. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Kudos for throwing this out there for people to think about.

Btw, your products are freakin' awesome!
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:58 AM   #48
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Those are good reasons why gold works well as a currency as a functional matter, but I still don't understand the perspective that the material has some kind of inherent value. We still just choose to value it, and the degree to which we do so fluctuates on a daily basis. The value of a dollar bill is whatever someone is willing to trade for it, and the same principle applies to gold. I guess I am mainly disagreeing with the contention that "gold IS money" in some way that differs from any other currency. It's only money because we all agree that it is- just like a dollar.

If we all were using gold back in 07, it wouldn't have stopped the subprime mortgage crisis. The value of our homes still would have plummeted, and so in turn would the value of gold. It actually might have been an even more global crisis if everyone in the world depended upon the same currency.

So yeah, I think those are good are good arguments for gold being a more utilitarian currency, but I'm not sure it would be more stable. .. Anyway, good luck with the promotion!
You are correct, gold has very little intrinsic value. It has limited use in electronics and dentistry. Other than that, is a shiny piece of metal. I guess its malleability makes it appealing for jewelry too, which is what the Incas and Aztec used it for. In any case, other metals like steel or aluminum have far more practical uses and thus value. As it is often said, if you are stranded in the middle of nowhere you probably rather have food with you than a bag of gold.

As for it practicality when used as currency, remember that paper currency developed because it was impractical to carry large sums of coins.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:02 AM   #49
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Trust, but verify

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Why We Did It...

As a company of humble Patriots....

"It is well enough that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Henry Ford
The Patriot, by Samuel Johnson

"Let us take a patriot, where we can meet him; and, that we may not flatter ourselves by false appearances, distinguish those marks which are certain, from those which may deceive; for a man may have the external appearance of a patriot, without the constituent qualities; as false coins have often lustre, though they want weight." ~ Samuel Johnson

I just always take it with a grain of salt when people start waving flags, beating chests and calling themselves patriots - when there is a war being fought. Trust but verify, kind of thing.

So, politely - since you all are embracing the patriot monicker, I am sure you have defined the word as it relates to yourself. Please share what it means for the individuals in your company to be defined as such -- meaning, what exactly are the patriotic things that your company is doing? Honestly curious.

Cheers,
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Sgt. 1st Class, U.S. Army (Ret.)
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:47 AM   #50
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PS On Henry Ford:

"A successful captain of industry. A pioneer in transportation who changed the world. Creator of an eponymous brand that survives to this day. An innovator in business efficiency. O.k. But also a scumbag bigot...."
"...it was through the The Dearborn Independent that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were introduced as fact to American readers. This fraudulent document is at the heart of the conspiracy theorists detailing the control of the world by Jews, created by the czars secret police. So whenever you hear about the Zionist plot to rule the world, thank Mr. Ford."
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:25 PM   #51
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You are correct, gold has very little intrinsic value. It has limited use in electronics and dentistry. Other than that, is a shiny piece of metal. I guess its malleability makes it appealing for jewelry too, which is what the Incas and Aztec used it for. In any case, other metals like steel or aluminum have far more practical uses and thus value. As it is often said, if you are stranded in the middle of nowhere you probably rather have food with you than a bag of gold.

As for it practicality when used as currency, remember that paper currency developed because it was impractical to carry large sums of coins.
I'm right there with you- I don't actually think that gold is more practical than paper dollars (or the invisible dollars we now use electronically and by check), but I think MC offered some good reasons why gold makes some sense as a currency. (excluding the notion that wheat and steel would somehow be much more heavy than gold in bulk, particularly because it assumes that valuation would be similar. Fore example, there's no reason we couldn't value .001 ounces of steel at something similar to a dollar, meaning you could walk around with $100 in your with only .1 ounces of weight)
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:35 PM   #52
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I just always take it with a grain of salt when people start waving flags, beating chests and calling themselves patriots - when there is a war being fought. Trust but verify, kind of thing.
I couldn't agree more. IMHO Patriots come in all shapes and sizes and each has their own unique way of contributing their God-given talents to this great country of ours.

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"All the perplexities, confusion and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, as much from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation."
-- John Adams
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:11 PM   #53
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I'm right there with you- I don't actually think that gold is more practical than paper dollars (or the invisible dollars we now use electronically and by check), but I think MC offered some good reasons why gold makes some sense as a currency. (excluding the notion that wheat and steel would somehow be much more heavy than gold in bulk, particularly because it assumes that valuation would be similar. Fore example, there's no reason we couldn't value .001 ounces of steel at something similar to a dollar, meaning you could walk around with $100 in your with only .1 ounces of weight)
Maybe it's just the rare qualities of the metal. I'd have $1,000,000 worth of steel in my Dana 44 if we linked .1 oz. of steel to a dollar.

I heard the other day it currently costs miners almost $1,000 to pull oz. of gold out of the ground. So when the gold price gets close to the $1,200 range they slow their roll.

Panda crap is pretty rare too, so I'm still confused.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:56 PM   #54
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Maybe it's just the rare qualities of the metal. I'd have $1,000,000 worth of steel in my Dana 44 if we linked .1 oz. of steel to a dollar.

I heard the other day it currently costs miners almost $1,000 to pull oz. of gold out of the ground. So when the gold price gets close to the $1,200 range they slow their roll.

Panda crap is pretty rare too, so I'm still confused.
If steel was money, your Dana 44 would also probably be made of aluminum

In addition to your other point, there's the reality that the rarity of gold is also controlled to some degree by the mining corporations and banks, just like DeBeers controls the rarity of diamonds. If people upstream have an interest in ensuring that their gold rises in value, they have less interest in redistributing it in the marketplace. And as we're all painfully aware, given the last 5-6 years, when people don't want to engage in market activity, you get a little something called a recession. So the facts that gold is hard to find and costs a lot to mine aren't the only factors contributing to its rarity, and basic physical rarity is not always a great thing when it comes to currency.

If you think about it, any currency is just a convenient way of passing around promises. Even on the gold standard, if you sold your car for bunch of gold, all the gold represents is the promise that someone else will later compensate you (in goods) for the value of your car. You aren't selling things in exchange for gold- you're selling them in exchange for the promise that you will be able to acquire goods that will amount to the value of the item you're selling. So I don't understand why people get so upset when they discover that the dollar (or any other paper currency) is only backed by collective faith in its value- that's not just how paper currency works- it's how the very concept of "money" works. The only way to avoid it is adopting a pure barter system. (i.e. If you want my car, you have to give me something specific that I actually want, like a bunch of horses or whatever).
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:38 PM   #55
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Why is Texas always the first to "get it"

Can Texas become 1st tax free gold state
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Old 06-04-2013, 05:46 PM   #56
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Why is Texas always the first to "get it"

Can Texas become 1st tax free gold state
Because we were a country before we became a state. The Republic of Texas...Awesome!
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:41 AM   #57
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So does this offer include bars or coins only?
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:39 PM   #58
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So does this offer include bars or coins only?
Good question. For now it reserved for One Ounce Gold Coins, though, if the program is continued beyond July 4, we may expand upon that as well.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:28 PM   #59
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Thanks for the enlightening discussion. Interesting thread and information here.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:23 PM   #60
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sweet promotion!

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