Back in the day, one would need a 3" lift on the previous generation Wranglers just to be able to run the same 32" tire a stock JK Rubicon has on it. People used to talk about a trail, and say "you really need a 3" lift and 32" tires if you're going to hit a trail that serious." Today, it's the same message, only ratcheted up a few notches: "....you'd better get rid of those 32" tires ASAP, lift your rig and get some 35's on so you can hit some real trails."
This comparison was published in Four Wheeler Magazine a few years ago:
What's happening here?
The JK is less capable and needs larger tires than a YJ or a TJ.
Trails have gotten harder today than they were just a decade or two ago. Al Gore was right, climate change is impacting every facet of our lives.
If a future gen. Wrangler comes stock with 40" tires, the industrial jeep modification complex will indoctrinate the masses that 45" tires are needed to "wheel."
There is utter distain for the moronic engineers at Jeep. Anything different is better.
I don't care, I just want to be different........wait, everybody had the same idea........:tomatoes:
This is mostly tongue-in-cheek but I'd like to know what people think is behind the paradigm shift.
Back in the day, one would need a 3" lift on the previous generation Wranglers just to be able to run the same 32" tire a stock JK Rubicon has on it. People used to talk about a trail, and say "you really need a 3" lift and 32" tires if you're going to hit a trail that serious." Today, it's the same message, only ratcheted up a few notches: "....you'd better get rid of those 32" tires ASAP, lift your rig and get some 35's on so you can hit some real trails."
This comparison was published in Four Wheeler Magazine a few years ago:
What's happening here?
The JK is less capable and needs larger tires than a YJ or a TJ.
Trails have gotten harder today than they were just a decade or two ago. Al Gore was right, climate change is impacting every facet of our lives.
If a future gen. Wrangler comes stock with 40" tires, the industrial jeep modification complex will indoctrinate the masses that 45" tires are needed to "wheel."
There is utter distain for the moronic engineers at Jeep. Anything different is better.
I don't care, I just want to be different........wait, everybody had the same idea........:tomatoes:
This is mostly tongue-in-cheek but I'd like to know what people think is behind the paradigm shift.
It's not a "Shift" as much as a "Drift"..... the March to Bigger, Higher, More Extreme than the last one.
I posted (2,000 ago) "It used to be 33's were the shiz, then came 35's and soon after 37's, when are we going to be hearing about 40's?"
It wasn't long after, I read about "How much Lift for 40's".
It's like anything, I often say, "Thank God my Dad doesn't come back for a day and watch the TV" Let alone it's 70" but whats on it would kill him (again).
I had 32's on my TJ. My JKUR has 32's. I'm happy. I'm not looking to see what it takes to break my Jeep. I want to use 4 wheel drive, but mostly just explore.
There is a couple of things going on here. First the JK is a significantly larger vehicle than the JY and TJ so 32" are proportionally smaller on the JK. The longer wheelbase of the JKU amplifies this difference in size. Scale is one of things not often discussed regarding the upcoming JL but it is unlikely it will be noticeably smaller than the JK.
Another factor is the extensive availability of aftermarket mods and the marketing hype. In the days of the YJ and early TJ era Jeep parts were more limited and marketing was done mostly done via catalogs and magazines. The Internet and the growth in Jeep sales have fueled the growth of the aftermarket. Forums make information readily available that used to be available in limited form in magazine articles and word of mouth among off roaders. It's easy to see dozens of pictures of big Jeeps and to think "I want one ...".
Finally there is an ever growing mentality of bigger is better when usually the weakest link in a vehicle off road is the driver. Most of us are not as adept at driving off road as we are on the road because of the simple lack of experience. This seems to lead to building a bigger and stronger Jeep so it can just plow through obstacles without much care or driver skill. IMO, looks are the biggest driver because many of the Jeeps with big tires are still running on a stock driveline. Modifying the driveline is no fun, you can't even see it. This isn't a criticism it just appears to be the trend and it will probably grow as the more first time Jeep owners join the fun.
Finally there is an ever growing mentality of bigger is better when usually the weakest link in a vehicle off road is the driver. Most of us are not as adept at driving off road as we are on the road because of the simple lack of experience.
Once "group think" engages..its over. Now you have people saying there are minimum modifications required for a run, based on what bad drivers need. Instead of people trying to actually improve their skills, you have an atmosphere where people only get out of their jeep to look at the terrain they are attempting once they are already stuck. Buying parts has become the entertainment factor, instead of better driving or figuring out strategies.
Combine that with club runs where people just go on autopilot and follow the leader, driving bumper to bumper, breaking parts and getting stuck, in brand new jeeps or heavily modified trucks, not even trying to get it right. Whats the point?
You can fit larger tires on a JK with a smaller lift than previous generations and it has stronger axles, so you can do 35's with stock axles and minimal other upgrades. In previous years, that limit was 33's before you needed to swap the D35 and various other things. It's just easier and cheaper to go bigger on the JK, so why not?
Hmmm. I'd say the jeeps are getting more capable. In the 80s I had a 3/4 ton Chevy long wheel base. I bought it with pizza cutters that were roughly 32" tall. To run on the trails and "jeep" roads that I wanted to, I quickly found that I didn't have enough clearance. So a 4" lift and 36" tires took care of that. Today I have a JKU that came with 32" tires. It is more capable than the 4Runner it replaced stock. With the modifications including taller tires, it is even more capable. In my old Chevy, I could get pretty much anywhere I wanted (except a lot of what Moab has to offer). With my Jeep, I feel even more confident about its capabilities and in Moab, it is awesome. I have wheeled it in Moab with the 32" tires and with the slightly less than 35" tires I have now. The difference is pretty amazing. And I can drive on trails and obstacles that I never would have considered without the added clearance. So...I would say that the differences are clear and that the added capabilities with the taller tires/clearance are impressive. That said, I can't quantify the difference with short wheel bases, but I definitely think more is better for those people that like to wheel on more difficult trails. For the typical forest road and the "easy" stuff in places like Moab and Grand Junction, stock is great. Modified is more fun and opens up a whole new world of wheeling possibilities.
Back in the day, one would need a 3" lift on the previous generation Wranglers just to be able to run the same 32" tire a stock JK Rubicon has on it. People used to talk about a trail, and say "you really need a 3" lift and 32" tires if you're going to hit a trail that serious." Today, it's the same message, only ratcheted up a few notches: "....you'd better get rid of those 32" tires ASAP, lift your rig and get some 35's on so you can hit some real trails."
This comparison was published in Four Wheeler Magazine a few years ago:
What's happening here?
The JK is less capable and needs larger tires than a YJ or a TJ.
Trails have gotten harder today than they were just a decade or two ago. Al Gore was right, climate change is impacting every facet of our lives.
If a future gen. Wrangler comes stock with 40" tires, the industrial jeep modification complex will indoctrinate the masses that 45" tires are needed to "wheel."
There is utter distain for the moronic engineers at Jeep. Anything different is better.
I don't care, I just want to be different........wait, everybody had the same idea........:tomatoes:
This is mostly tongue-in-cheek but I'd like to know what people think is behind the paradigm shift.
#2: The trails (at least some of the more popular) ARE getting tougher. I have photos of the same trails from 94, 04 and today. Between 94 and 04 there was very little change. But from 04 to present if shown photos side by side I doubt few could tell they were the same spot on the same trail. The issues as I see it is over use. "Off roading" has become very popular and we now share the trails with an ever growing vehicle type. Couple this with a fair number of folks that have little experience and think big tires spinning and ripping things up is the only way to get over an interesting trail obstacle. This leads to the destruction of once milder trails.
In many areas BLM and the US Forest Service have taken notice of the same things and because of it have or are threatening trail closures.
TREAD LIGHTLY is DEAD with the "the world revolves around me"
types.
Thanks for the replies so far. I'm really liking this forum, so many people with great insights that are more than willing to share. Some other forums (not Jeep related) that I'm on aren't nearly as civil.
There's probably some truth to your query. Trails, or rather the ones we choose to wheel on, are tougher in some instances as more capable rigs seek out more difficult trails and open them up to the rest of us. Jeeps probably aren't as "capable". They are bigger, longer and more expensive. There's more sheet metal to ding and dent. They are used far more often to get groceries and take kids to baseball practice than their predecessors. They are multi-use vehicles today.
So, in order to take a JK on the harder trails and not bring home the wife's commuter all tore up, you put 2.5 inches and 35's.
But since the JK is engineered to accept bigger tires than TJ's, YJ's and CJ's, people put them on. Getting 35's on a TJ and being able to stuff the tire and not rub was a big deal. On JK's you can almost do it stock. The recommendations are probably as much a function of the ability to put on bigger rubber as anything. But some of the "shortcomings" of the JK and especially the JKU, like size and wheelbase, kind of require the bigger tires to do the same stuff.
I agree with a lot of stuff said here. I think the jk is every bit as capable as its predecessors, however as mentioned more and more people own jeeps. They pay a lot for them and don't want to smash them up. It's easier to put big tires on them because they are built stronger from the factory. The break over on the JKU's aren't designed for some of the established trails so they have to go higher to compensate. And no matter how strong you make them someone in the well established offroad jeep aftermarket will convince you you need to go even bigger. I remember when I had my YJ to get a dana 44 in the rear was awesome. Now I have a second gen d44 as standard equipment. My second gen d30 is at least comparable to a TJ rubi d44 up front. And yet we're not satisfied. At least I think some people are starting to come around that you don't need some gigantic lift to run decent trails.
It's the Wrangler forums fault....the moderators send out these signals to unsuspecting mall crawler types and through some diabolical subliminal message gets you to start some build thread which takes you through some sick depraved psychological transformation. They make you throw away your collection of Kipling to make room for Off Roader, Quadratec catalogs, and basically discuss nothing but Poison Spyders attacking Rock Krawlers with War Pigs and all that.......
After the Jeep got here everything changed.... Now my Wife catches me surfing Qtec and the WF forum on my computer. I'm like, "Honey honest I wasn't doing anything! Jeep parts just make me.....happy".
Ummmmm...... Honey?
The trails here are often abused, sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident. We have a few wheeling spots that are 'pay to play', they often get abused, rebuilt, modified, etc. People pay, and the owner takes care of fixing the trails.
Then these guys go out and do the same in areas that are not 'pay to play'. They learned that fun means tearing down trails at 30mph, cutting trees out of the way, winching with no tree straps, and all the other bad habits and nobody showed them how to tread lightly - partly because nobody at these parks often do it themselves.
Now to the initial question, I had a 4" lift and 33's on my TJ. I could have easily done flat fenders, LCG, and a 2" lift. I wish I had now, I think it would be nice. If you look at the position the hubs sit and the undercarriage I think the JK still sits lower stock then the TJ, not much, maybe a half inch. A JK on 33's and everything else stock has less clearance under it than a TJ on 33's and 3" lift. Now, I'm not 100% sure of this, it would be nice to get some real life measurements one of these days, but today the Jeeps are hiding inside (rain).
The trails here are often abused, sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident. We have a few wheeling spots that are 'pay to play', they often get abused, rebuilt, modified, etc. People pay, and the owner takes care of fixing the trails.
Then these guys go out and do the same in areas that are not 'pay to play'. They learned that fun means tearing down trails at 30mph, cutting trees out of the way, winching with no tree straps, and all the other bad habits and nobody showed them how to tread lightly - partly because nobody at these parks often do it themselves.
#2: The trails (at least some of the more popular) ARE getting tougher. I have photos of the same trails from 94, 04 and today. Between 94 and 04 there was very little change. But from 04 to present if shown photos side by side I doubt few could tell they were the same spot on the same trail. The issues as I see it is over use. "Off roading" has become very popular and we now share the trails with an ever growing vehicle type. Couple this with a fair number of folks that have little experience and think big tires spinning and ripping things up is the only way to get over an interesting trail obstacle. This leads to the destruction of once milder trails.
In many areas BLM and the US Forest Service have taken notice of the same things and because of it have or are threatening trail closures.
TREAD LIGHTLY is DEAD with the "the world revolves around me"
types.
I see this alot in the areas I frequent. People are spinning open diffs when a locker would limit trail damage and feel they need to conquer an obstacle without help whilst pulling some cable would go a long ways to limit the damage they inflict on the trail. I'm sure their grand kids will be real impressed looking at pictures of their grand-dad conquered that terrace without needing no pussy winch, too bad the trail was closed 10 years before they were born due to a thousand other non-pussies obliterating the trail...
I'd say that they've become more capable. I started with a 96 XJ. Then an 06 TJ Sport and now my 2015 JKUR. I lifted my JKUR 3.5" and put 35s on it and pretty much just for looks only. I LOVE the way it looks. It was cheaper to lift my JKU than the TJ was. But the 35s I can get on my JKU are a lot more than the 33s I'd have put on my TJ. My TJ was stock height with 31s and it went everywhere. I didn't have lockers or anything like that. I did all of the big trails in SW Colorado with it and some other crazy ones around the country. I've done a lot of the same trails in my JKUR and even though I've never had to use the lockers in it, it's definitely easier to wheel out on the trails. It feels like cheating at off roading. It just goes over and through everything. But I agree that it's more about skill than lift. Last year, I was headed up Mineral Creek near Ouray in my TJ. There were some people there in JKURs on 35s that advised me to turn back but said I could follow them in case I insisted on going and ran into trouble. It was actually no trouble at all for me. I just picked my lines wisely while they just drove over everything.
I think part of the "need" for 2-3" lift and 35" tires is due to the popularity of the JKU with its longer wheel base. The JKU needs 2-3" lift and 35's to have the same break over angle as a stock JK on 32's. This will become a factor when crawling rocky trails such as Mineral Creek KC10Chief mentioned. I ran Mineral Creek 3 times while spending last summer in CO. I scraped a frame rail once on the first run, no scrapes at all on 2 and 3 (picked a better line). My Jeep is a stock JK on 32" MT's. The only other trail I scraped on was Poughkeepsie Gulch, hung up on the oil/tranny skid. I backed off and tried another line successfully. Poughkeepsie was also the only trail where I spun tires quite a bit, however it was raining when we went through. I never felt significantly handicapped not having a lift and 35's. I guess some with "built rigs" will never even approach the limits of the vehicle. I met some folks in the campground where we stayed with a lifted JKU on 35's and invited them on a run over Black Bear. The reply was he would never attempt it. I thought Black Bear non event from a technical standpoint, though the drop offs and switchbacks demand you pay attention. My thoughts FWIW.
I would say neither- It's just that the aftermarket parts industry has gotten a lot more better at pushing products and the credit card industry made it a lot easier to buy them.
Now all you have to do is click the button and several thousand dollars later you can be properly equipped for that gravel road.
I'd say, based on the limited trails I've done, it's a combination of weather just always changes the trails.........especially high elevation ones that get snow.......and also jerks trashing them. Between guys in the built up buggies on 40+ inch tires spinning them out everywhere to as an example on one of the trails around here the same guys moving big boulders INTO the middle of the trail so THEY could have more fun the popular trails can get trashed pretty quick.
I think a couple of things are a factor. The JKU needs to be higher to run the same trails all us two door jeeps can run. And yes marketing and believing what we're told we need is a factor. You read thread after thread of guys buying a lift and tires before the jeeps ever seen dirt. Because they like the look. I'm not in a huge hurry to even get a lift. My 32's haven't failed me yet.
I would take my JKU with 35's and a 2.5" lift over my old YJ with a 4" and 31's any day. I've had my JKU on trails I never would of attempted in the YJ. Interesting thread.
Trails do generally get tougher the longer they are in use. There is a trail I used to do in Texas that at one point was actually a county road used for maintaining the power lines, I barely made it up last time I went. Does that have anything to do with why JK's usually run a larger tire than older jeeps, no.
It is mostly due to the JK's increased dimensions, but it also has a bit to do with tire availability. What 40" tires were available 30 years ago that wouldnt kill you on the street? Groundhawgs? Now days I could name 20 or 30.
Do I need 40's to wheel? I can have fun in a stock jeep on street tires, but most of us enjoy making things better.
And dont you dare suggest that TJ's and YJ's are more capable than an equally optioned JK. That's just silly.
I agree with you. My JK is built pretty well for 35s and can run MOST anything, easily, at Walker or Elbe... for instance. The V-rocks will never see my JK. Lol
Lets not forget that the biggest reason why stock TJ's and 35's dont mix is the dana 35. Lots of people out there have shown that the JK Dana 44 can handle 40's fairly well.
The dana 35 is a wall that had to be crossed to run a larger tire.
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