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Old 09-16-2011, 05:09 PM   #1
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clutch

I have a fair idea which is more ware an tear on the clutch at a stoplight. Seeking some input, hold it in or let it out, with the foot on the break of course.

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Old 09-16-2011, 05:21 PM   #2
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If you keep your foot pressed down on the clutch pedal the throw-out bearing takes the punishment. If you keep your foot off the pedal and tranny in neutral not the clutch nor the throw-out bearing takes any punishment.

And when you keep it in neutral at a light with your foot off the brake and you're not on a hill you'll do better if someone rear-ends you because your vehicle will move and absorb some of the shock from the impact. I always do this and if I see someone coming up behind me I'll tap the brake pedal several times as sort of a warning to them.

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Old 09-16-2011, 05:31 PM   #3
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I stop at lights and leave my van in neutral, foot off the clutch. I always have my foot on the brake though. Living in NY the last thing I want to get is rear ended and launched into an intersection, or oncoming traffic.

Maybe a Police Officer can chime in and help me out. IIRC it is against the law to be stopped at a light w/o having the brakes applied. In fact in Drivers Ed, back in the 1970's if you drove a stick and stopped at a light we were taught to have the car in first gear with the clutch down, and brake applied. I don't do that, I don't like replacing TOB's.
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Old 09-16-2011, 05:32 PM   #4
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Holy cow, yes--put it in neutral and take your foot off the clutch.

Think of it this way: Imagine a big red light goes on every time you push in the clutch pedal or even lay your foot on it. Your goal should be to only allow that light to turn on as little as possible.
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Old 09-16-2011, 05:58 PM   #5
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Save a nickle here, lose a nickle there. If you let it out in neutral for the light, you are spinning up the input shaft. That's going to wear your 1st gear synchro down faster when you shift and take off.
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:24 PM   #6
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Interesting thread!
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:33 PM   #7
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I'm not a pro on clutches or TOBs but I thought you just replace the TOB when the clutch is worn out? I always keep it in first with the clutch and brake pushed in at intersections so I'm interested to read more
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:33 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by demarpaint View Post
I stop at lights and leave my van in neutral, foot off the clutch. I always have my foot on the brake though. Living in NY the last thing I want to get is rear ended and launched into an intersection, or oncoming traffic.

Maybe a Police Officer can chime in and help me out. IIRC it is against the law to be stopped at a light w/o having the brakes applied. In fact in Drivers Ed, back in the 1970's if you drove a stick and stopped at a light we were taught to have the car in first gear with the clutch down, and brake applied. I don't do that, I don't like replacing TOB's.
Good point about the intersection. Don't know about the law regarding having brakes applied as you mentioned. If so most all motorcyclists would be breaking the brake law.
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:55 PM   #9
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I'm not a pro on clutches or TOBs but I thought you just replace the TOB when the clutch is worn out? I always keep it in first with the clutch and brake pushed in at intersections so I'm interested to read more
Throw-out bearings do go bad, sometimes before the clutch. A good clutch job consists of a clutch disk, pressure plate, pilot bearing, throw-out bearing, machining or replacing the flywheel, and a slave cylinder flush, or replacement. Flywheel replacement depends on how bad the flywheel is, and slave cylinder replacement depends on how long its been in service and the condition.


The bottom line is this: If the TOB goes you still have to drop a tranny. Putting in a new TOB leaving old clutch parts behind is a mistake in my opinion, and probably a lot of mechanics as well.

As already stated anytime your foot is on the clutch wear is occurring. When fully depressing the clutch the TOB is wearing. When resting your foot on the clutch and partially disengaging it, it is wearing the TOB and the disk. Releasing the clutch to engage gears wears the disk and the TOB. Lets not forget the springs in the pressure plate, they lose strength too. Clutches are happiest when your foot is off of them.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:02 PM   #10
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Good point about the intersection. Don't know about the law regarding having brakes applied as you mentioned. If so most all motorcyclists would be breaking the brake law.
I've never driven a motorcycle so I don't know how the law applies to one. I would imagine if a bike got hit while stationary it would probably go down and slide into an intersection? I do know stopping at a light in Neutral w/o the brakes applied in a car can be fatal if you're rear ended.
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:13 PM   #11
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Save a nickle here, lose a nickle there. If you let it out in neutral for the light, you are spinning up the input shaft. That's going to wear your 1st gear synchro down faster when you shift and take off.
The synchro is out of the picture when the tranny is in neutral and foot off of the clutch pedal. The only time the synchro comes into play is when you move the shift lever towards a gear. The synchro synchronizes the motion of the mating gears before they mate when you move the shifter close enough in the direction of putting it into gear. When the two gears mesh, the teeth of the gears mate.....hopefully without grinding. If they grind you either pushed the shifter into gear without allowing the synchro to match the speed of the mating gears or the synchro is not functioning as intended. But no wear occurs to the synchro until you move the shifter from neutral position towards a gear.
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demarpaint
Clutches are happiest when your foot is off of them.
That's always been my understanding too, hence:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH
Think of it this way: Imagine a big red light goes on every time you push in the clutch pedal or even lay your foot on it. Your goal should be to only allow that light to turn on as little as possible.
I am always--always--in neutral if I have to stop for more than a second or two. I lack the expertise to explain why that's "right," but if it's "wrong" I'd love to know why.
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:39 PM   #13
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9 time out of ten a auto will outlast a stick before it needs any repair. You have the clutch itself the TOB and the master cylinder too which all are prone to failure. Autos can fail too, but they seem to have a longer life before breakdowns. Auto for me it is!
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:45 PM   #14
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I lack the expertise to explain why that's "right," but if it's "wrong" I'd love to know why.
OK, you asked for it Mike!

Here goes the long version:

When your transmission is in neutral of course the input shaft turns but the output does not when the clutch is released. Whether you have a throughout bearing or an internal slave cylinder, there is wearing anytime the clutch is depressed. The reason why is that when you push the clutch in there has to be a way to force the diaphragm of the pressure plate in while it is spinning and it gets pushed upon either by the bearing on the slave cylinder inside the bell housing or the throughout bearing. For the throughout bearing the slave cylinder is on the outside of the bell housing and operates similar to mechanical clutch linkages inside the bell housing. On external slave cylinder type clutch systems there is a lever that operates a fork the fork rides in a groove in the throughout bearing. Pushing the lever by operating the clutch towards the floor forces the bearing into the diaphram of the pressure plate and moves the pressure plate away from the fly wheel. When that happens, the clutch plate which was being squeezed by the pressure plate up against the spinning fly wheel is no longer being squeezed and it can now spin independent of the fly wheel. No more energy will be transferred from the fly wheel to the transmission input shaft because of this. The jeep rolls to a stop or the brakes applied cause it to come to a stop. The pressure plate is bolted to the fly wheel and spins when the fly wheel spins so as long as the engine is running, the fly wheel and pressure plate are turning. The clutch plate which is in the space between the pressure plate and the fly wheel is connected to the input shaft of the transmission via a spline on the input shaft that allows the clutch plate to move freely between the pressure plate and the fly wheel (clutch pedal depressed). When you let the clutch pedal out the pressure plate is moved towards the fly wheel applying pressure to the clutch plate forcing it up against the fly wheel. When that happens energy is then transferred to the transmission input shaft by the clutch plate via the spline that the clutch plate rides on that is on the transmission input shaft. The purpose of the throughout bearing is to transfer the force of the clutch pedal motion from the non spinning parts mounted to the bell housing to the spinning pressure plate so that it can be moved away from the fly wheel and thus release the clutch plate.

The easiest way to get a complete understanding of this process is to replace a clutch. Once you do that, you will have a visual representation of what all the parts look like and how they work together to apply engine output to the input shaft of the transmission (clutch pedal released) or allow the input shaft of the transmission to turn independently of the fly wheel (clutch pedal depressed).
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:52 PM   #15
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Yeah, I'm going to need to SEE all that to make any sense of it . . . Elegant effort though. *scratches head*

But all that does amount to me being "right" though, yes? Keep off the clutch unless you're shifting, and that includes shifting to neutral at stop lights and taking your foot off the clutch pedal while you wait. Right?
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Old 09-16-2011, 09:54 PM   #16
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Yeah, I'm going to need to SEE all that to make any sense of it . . . Elegant effort though. *scratches head*

But all that does amount to me being "right" though, yes? Keep off the clutch unless you're shifting, and that includes shifting to neutral at stop lights and taking your foot off the clutch pedal while you wait. Right?
Absolutely, without question, correct.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:54 PM   #17
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Holy cow! Put it in neutral in get the heck off the clutch!!!
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:04 AM   #18
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Yeah, I'm going to need to SEE all that to make any sense of it . . . Elegant effort though. *scratches head*

But all that does amount to me being "right" though, yes? Keep off the clutch unless you're shifting, and that includes shifting to neutral at stop lights and taking your foot off the clutch pedal while you wait. Right?
You got it, doing a clutch job as mentioned will give you an understanding. Doing a clutch job on a 4x4 will make you want to have the clutch last as long as possible. Then you'll understand why if a TOB goes and a clutch only has 15,000 miles on it, showing little wear you'll know why most people change everything.

I just dealt with a Ford grinding going into Reverse. Older Fords were known for the floor flexing when stepping on the clutch, that doesn't allow the clutch to fully release, and replacing it won't fix the problem. The floor has to be beefed up. This is with a hydraulic clutch where there is no adjustment.

A tip for Jeep owners: gravity bleed the clutch every 2 years or so to get the old brake fluid out. Brake fluid takes on moisture and can break down causing problems with gears grinding when the fluid heats up. It is a simple job best done with two people, just don't let the reservoir run dry while doing it. I sure hope Chrysler has a bleeder for the clutch.
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:28 AM   #19
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A tip for Jeep owners: gravity bleed the clutch every 2 years or so to get the old brake fluid out. Brake fluid takes on moisture and can break down causing problems with gears grinding when the fluid heats up. It is a simple job best done with two people, just don't let the reservoir run dry while doing it. I sure hope Chrysler has a bleeder for the clutch.
I think the new synthetic fluid isn't hygroscopic so it doesn't take on water.
What I have always done on both brakes and hydraulic clutches is to get a cheap turkey baster and suck out some of the old fluid and add some new. I would do this twice a year. It's cheap, takes no time and I never had a clutch or brake problem...because of that?...I don't know but I do it anyway.

Bleeding the system as you do every 2 years is also good advice and insures any micro-grit is flushed out.
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:43 AM   #20
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I think the new synthetic fluid isn't hygroscopic so it doesn't take on water.
What I have always done on both brakes and hydraulic clutches is to get a cheap turkey baster and suck out some of the old fluid and add some new. I would do this twice a year. It's cheap, takes no time and I never had a clutch or brake problem...because of that?...I don't know but I do it anyway.

Bleeding the system as you do every 2 years is also good advice and insures any micro-grit is flushed out.
My clutch uses Dot 3 or 4 brake fluid. I can tell you it was spent but I was lazy and let it go longer than two years this time. As a result of flushing it a tiny grind going into reverse is totally gone now. The turkey baster works fine, I use it for PS fluid changes. I prefer to flush the clutch and brakes because it gets everything out. The last thing I need is an internal slave cylinder going and taking out a good clutch as a result, or a grind making me think springs are weak or the clutch is going. Most techs would sell you a clutch job with a grind going into reverse, and not bleed the system first. Some say my main't regime is overkill, you know how that goes.
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Old 09-17-2011, 02:12 PM   #21
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Ok you guys got to me - I took the Wrangler out for a spin since I haven't driven it in a week after cleaning it, and found myself waiting at two stoplights . . . . put it in neutral and took foot off the clutch while waiting. This will be a new habit I'm sure!
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Old 09-17-2011, 03:11 PM   #22
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Ok you guys got to me - I took the Wrangler out for a spin since I haven't driven it in a week after cleaning it, and found myself waiting at two stoplights . . . . put it in neutral and took foot off the clutch while waiting. This will be a new habit I'm sure!
Your TOB will thank you! Just keep a foot on the brake so you don't become a projectile in the event of a collision!

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