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Old 02-15-2013, 03:36 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC
We've had these discussions countless times.

Here is the truth.

1) Cold air intakes, work, they are dyno proven, and don't void any warranty (the dealer can't prove anything with a CAI) other than hydrolocking.

2) This is the big one...there are no CAIs available for the JK. These companies claim they are CAIs, but they are NOT. They are simply intake boxes with covers removed. They do not source their air from a location where the ambient air is cold. As a matter of fact, they source their air from the top of the motor bay, aka, the hottest air possible, which generally leads to nothing but heat soak.

3) If you want a REAL cold air intake for your rig, get a snorkel.
Or:

4) Get an RK hood (do a search to find info on it if you want) that directs air to the factory filter location. With a cold air intake this makes the filter on a stick a REAL CAI and maybe even RAM AIR. I'm no expert, just putting more info out there for ya.

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Old 02-15-2013, 03:42 PM   #32
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For those of you that have ran a CAI for any length of time go pull off the intake pipe and wipe it with a tissue and see what your letting get into your engine.Coming from a CTD and Diesel trucks Ive seen lots of guys that dusted their turbo and engine with a CAI.

Stop and think about it.If its making more hp it has to be flowing more air and to flow more air it has to be substantially bigger or substantially doing less filtering.
I would never buy a used vehicle that has a CAI on it or would I put one on my vehicle. There are some exceptions. The large nano dry filters are ok but to get better than stock air flow it takes a massive filter. The other obvious downfall to CAI is water .The downside far exceeds any gains for me.
When I put the Mopar (dry) CAI on I wiped the film off of the intake of the throttle body. It was dirty oily residue. My point- stuff gets past any filter. When I service the dry filter I will check the throttle body again to see how it compares.

This is the one I installed:

http://www.moparperformanceonline.co...pentastar.aspx

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Old 02-15-2013, 04:09 PM   #33
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The throttle body will have oily residue from the engine crankcase gases coming back into the intake.Im talking about just past the air filter in the pipe before the crankcase gases come in.The dry nano filter elements are a good solution but your still leaving your ass hanging out there for water ingestion. I think the perfect solution would be a snorkel with a large nano element.It would be a true cold air intake and would offer the best protection against water, the additional air flow is unnecessary unless you have other mods that can help the engine consume more air than stock.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ohioviper
For those of you that have ran a CAI for any length of time go pull off the intake pipe and wipe it with a tissue and see what your letting get into your engine.Coming from a CTD and Diesel trucks Ive seen lots of guys that dusted their turbo and engine with a CAI.

Stop and think about it.If its making more hp it has to be flowing more air and to flow more air it has to be substantially bigger or substantially doing less filtering.
I would never buy a used vehicle that has a CAI on it or would I put one on my vehicle. There are some exceptions. The large nano dry filters are ok but to get better than stock air flow it takes a massive filter. The other obvious downfall to CAI is water .The downside far exceeds any gains for me.
Wrong, CAIs dont flow more by allowing more dirt! They flow more through their larger surface area (hence why they have those "folds" in them!)
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:49 PM   #35
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Stop and think about that and get back to me on it.

The only way to improve air flow without decreasing filter efficiency is more surface area period.To get more surface area you need a bigger filter period.
Any filter of the same surface area to the stock filter that flows more air does not filter as well. Its not rocket science.And yes there are in fact elements that do a better job of filtering out dirt than the stock filter but they dont flow as well.

Another thing for you pro CAI folks.On most all modern vehicles the stock filter and intake is capable of flowing more air than the engine can consume unless it has been drastically altered from stock form.Yes you can see increased performance if you are in fact drawing cold air from outside the engine bay but in the case of the JK it does not. You are only increasing the odds of sucking in water and with some of the lesser quality filter elements you are ingesting more ppm of contaminants than your engine were designed to tolerate without increasing engine wear.

If you pull off your intake pipe and see light dusting you better be looking for a better filter .
The filter doent have to be physically bigger to have more surface area. Surface area can be increased by the folds in the high flow filters.
You should also remember that manufacturers dont have hp on the top of their list, but rather focus on emissions, noise, etc, so you cannot just assume your engine is getting the max amount of air it can.
I will leave whether CAIs are worth it overall for another time, but dont diss them based on false premisses
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:10 PM   #36
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The filter doent have to be physically bigger to have more surface area. Surface area can be increased by the folds in the high flow filters.
You should also remember that manufacturers dont have hp on the top of their list, but rather focus on emissions, noise, etc, so you cannot just assume your engine is getting the max amount of air it can.
I will leave whether CAIs are worth it overall for another time, but dont diss them based on false premisses
I can't think of a scenario where a manufacturer would want less air and more restrictive intake for emissions purposes.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:05 PM   #37
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Yes I am aware that most CAI filters are pleated with more surface area and are also larger allowing more air flow. But many also have larger micron ratings allowing more dirt to pass through.

Ive been there done that. Ran K&N and a few others on my cars years ago before I realized the amount of dirt that was getting through . Seen dusted turbos on several Diesels was enough for me to just say no.The OE filter will flow all the air it needs and do a great job of filtering all while keeping warranty.You take a Jeep in thats burning oil or has other engine issues under warranty and they see a CAI they are going to blame it first thing.

The stock filter on the Wrangler is over sized for the application and will flow way more air than it can use. Dont believe me next time your in the parts store ask for a filter for a v8 RAM and you will see a filter for a 5.7 is almost the exact same size as one for the 3.6.

Go with a snorkel with a nano filter or spend your money on something else.

This is my 2 cents dont take it to heart its just my pov on this issue.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:12 PM   #38
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Yes I am aware that most CAI filters are pleated with more surface area and are also larger allowing more air flow. But many also have larger micron ratings allowing more dirt to pass through.

Ive been there done that. Ran K&N and a few others on my cars years ago before I realized the amount of dirt that was getting through . Seen dusted turbos on several Diesels was enough for me to just say no.The OE filter will flow all the air it needs and do a great job of filtering all while keeping warranty.You take a Jeep in thats burning oil or has other engine issues under warranty and they see a CAI they are going to blame it first thing.
I had nearly 100,000 on a Banks intake on a 6.7 cummins. No turbo issues there.

When the CAI says MOPAR I don't give a damn who they blame. I'm covered!

I'm convinced you are not reading the links I posted and not thoroughly reading the posts in this thread. Maybe I am missing something?
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:20 PM   #39
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I can't think of a scenario where a manufacturer would want less air and more restrictive intake for emissions purposes.
Um...what? You realize that restrictive intakes and catalytic converters/mufflers/piping restricts airflow (power) and provides lower emissions right? This is why adding a 3" exhaust to something like a Mitsu Evo yields 30 WHEEL horsepower. Adding an intake to a vette adds 20 wheel horsepower, and so on.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:21 PM   #40
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Yes I am aware that most CAI filters are pleated with more surface area and are also larger allowing more air flow. But many also have larger micron ratings allowing more dirt to pass through.

Ive been there done that. Ran K&N and a few others on my cars years ago before I realized the amount of dirt that was getting through . Seen dusted turbos on several Diesels was enough for me to just say no.The OE filter will flow all the air it needs and do a great job of filtering all while keeping warranty.You take a Jeep in thats burning oil or has other engine issues under warranty and they see a CAI they are going to blame it first thing.

The stock filter on the Wrangler is over sized for the application and will flow way more air than it can use. Dont believe me next time your in the parts store ask for a filter for a v8 RAM and you will see a filter for a 5.7 is almost the exact same size as one for the 3.6.

Go with a snorkel with a nano filter or spend your money on something else.

This is my 2 cents dont take it to heart its just my pov on this issue.
Dust is not a problem for engines. It's not a cabin filter that needs to filter to a micron level. It needs to filter twigs, leaves, etc etc. Dust doesn't hurt engines.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:22 PM   #41
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Dust is not a problem for engines. It's not a cabin filter that needs to filter to a micron level. It needs to filter twigs, leaves, etc etc. Dust doesn't hurt engines.

OMG I dont even know what to say to that.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:30 PM   #42
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OMG
Laugh all you want, don't make you right. Plenty of my fiends run their turbo cars with a gauze filter aka screen material without any filter. Guess what? It works just fine. Dust combusts, and gets blown out as carbon deposit.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:32 PM   #43
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:42 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC

Um...what? You realize that restrictive intakes and catalytic converters/mufflers/piping restricts airflow (power) and provides lower emissions right? This is why adding a 3" exhaust to something like a Mitsu Evo yields 30 WHEEL horsepower. Adding an intake to a vette adds 20 wheel horsepower, and so on.
A cat restricts exhaust flow as a by product due to the nature of the design, the restriction itself is not doing anything for emissions. Any restriction in the intake have nothing to do with emissions. Unless you change the intake all the way back to the mufflers, you're Vette and Evo are not seeing that much wheel hp with just an intake change.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:45 PM   #45
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Dust is not a problem for engines. It's not a cabin filter that needs to filter to a micron level. It needs to filter twigs, leaves, etc etc. Dust doesn't hurt engines.
Too funny. I'm sure those oil rings and piston sleeves don't mind a little abrasive scoring at 2500 rpm all day.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:49 PM   #46
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Laugh all you want, don't make you right. Plenty of my fiends run their turbo cars with a gauze filter aka screen material without any filter. Guess what? It works just fine. Dust combusts, and gets blown out as carbon deposit.
And that's why I don't buy used cars anymore.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:51 PM   #47
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Im sorry if I come across as a know it all I will try to be mindful of how I post things from now on. I realize not eveyone has the experience or back ground to know some of this stuff and not fall for all the marketing bs.

I dont profess to know all and always be right but I guarantee you one thing.Dust will absolutely eat a turbo and will take the rings out of a motor quick.

I grew up on the farm and spent many years building pulling tractors and trucks with Diesel and blown gas engines. Worked the first half of my life as a mechanic so I do know a little about this. But Im not gonna waste my time in a pissing match. Do what you want its your money.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:55 PM   #48
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Wow...so much unintentional humor here...where to start?

Unless your Jeep breaks around Mach 2.5 (and good luck finding tires rated for that) you don't need to worry about "Ram Air." Thankfully, since your Jeep doesn't run a Ramjet, this is not really a huge concern.

Abrasive particles being placed inside an operating system with tight tolerances, high temperatures and high speeds - sure, that doesn't make a difference at all! Yup, no siree, nothing to worry about - in fact, filters are just for show! Manufacturers only put them in there as a trick - they don't want you to get the extra HP!

Flowing more, cleaner air affects emissions! It really does! I swear! In fact, emissions don't have anything to do with unburnt remnants of Hydrocarbons combusted in the cylinders! Honest, it's all that clean air that causes 'em! In fact, you can get rid of your catalytic converter, run leaded gasoline and retard your ignition timing to ensure poor combustion and it won't make a difference at all as long as you keep a nice restrictive filter on there!

Come on, lets do some more! This is great!
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:56 PM   #49
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Laugh all you want, don't make you right. Plenty of my fiends run their turbo cars with a gauze filter aka screen material without any filter. Guess what? It works just fine. Dust combusts, and gets blown out as carbon deposit.
Oh, damn it, I missed this gem!

That's right, anything bad that gets into your engine gets magically turned into carbon no matter what it started as!
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:25 PM   #50
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I guess I spend a lot of money to gain horsepower on my 08 jk, I run a superchip programmer set at 93 performance ( yes I run 93 octane), k&n complete CAI, modified exhaust, each change made a difference, the programmer made a big difference. Today I finally installed a 2008-10 new Dodge Viper throttle body. It was 170.00 from the dodge dealer. I had been reading about it for some time, it had a much larger diameter. The best thing is it took 5 minutes to remove the 4 bolts, unplug it, and install the viper TB! No check engine light and a real difference in performance.
So if you want to do all of this, you will get the performance your looking for. I DID! It's not in my head or butt.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:28 PM   #51
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You guys beat me too it so I just leave it at this. NFRs2000NYC, it's clear that you have got a ton of learning to do. What's not clear is whether or not you are willing to listen. One thing I learned long ago is that forums like this are generally a treasure trove of knowledge. If you choose, you can learn a lot. There's proof of that right here in this thread.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:30 PM   #52
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It's not in my head or butt.

Don't know about your head however I'm pretty sure it's good that it's not in your butt!
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:38 PM   #53
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I can't think of a scenario where a manufacturer would want less air and more restrictive intake for emissions purposes.
The less air, the less fuel being burned and therefor less polution. Also, most people want comfort and dont't want the noise from high flow filters or flee flow mufflers, etc. Everything about any vehicle is a compromise over something else, you just cant have your cake and eat it too, so chances are a lot higher that the stock intake does restrict. Previous dyno graphs have shown difference between no filter at all and stock filter, so there's no argument to be had about how perfect the stock box is since it's not...
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:44 PM   #54
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Too funny. I'm sure those oil rings and piston sleeves don't mind a little abrasive scoring at 2500 rpm all day.
You are trolling. No filter is 100% effective. Any particles that make it past a filter like a K&N causes absolutely no damage to any motor. If you think it does, you are drinking a special brand of koolaid.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:45 PM   #55
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Im sorry if I come across as a know it all I will try to be mindful of how I post things from now on. I realize not eveyone has the experience or back ground to know some of this stuff and not fall for all the marketing bs.

I dont profess to know all and always be right but I guarantee you one thing.Dust will absolutely eat a turbo and will take the rings out of a motor quick.

I grew up on the farm and spent many years building pulling tractors and trucks with Diesel and blown gas engines. Worked the first half of my life as a mechanic so I do know a little about this. But Im not gonna waste my time in a pissing match. Do what you want its your money.
I didn't say ANY dust. Obviously since we are talking about filters, I was talking about dust that makes it PAST the filters.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:46 PM   #56
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A cat restricts exhaust flow as a by product due to the nature of the design, the restriction itself is not doing anything for emissions. Any restriction in the intake have nothing to do with emissions. Unless you change the intake all the way back to the mufflers, you're Vette and Evo are not seeing that much wheel hp with just an intake change.
Have you EVER built an engine?? Have you ever done any simple bolt ons on ANY engine?? The per dollar value of boltons may not be great in terms of hp, but anyone that has done any work on cars KNOWS the difference in feel between a choked down engine and happy revving engine that breaths freely.

I just cant understand how ANYONE can expect our engines to be perfectly optimized from the factory! They are putting the pentastar in anything and everything these days, so we are getting an engine that's as vanilla as it can possibly be.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:47 PM   #57
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You guys beat me too it so I just leave it at this. NFRs2000NYC, it's clear that you have got a ton of learning to do. What's not clear is whether or not you are willing to listen. One thing I learned long ago is that forums like this are generally a treasure trove of knowledge. If you choose, you can learn a lot. There's proof of that right here in this thread.
I do have a lot to learn, but not misinformation like this. I've been building race engines for almost 10 years now, so I don't need to listen when someone is telling me that "a K&N filter is going to let in more dust and kill your motor." I guess motors that I have put together that have 225,000 miles are just miracles. I may not know a lot about Jeeps, but I sure as hell know a lot about motors.
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:48 PM   #58
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Oh, damn it, I missed this gem!

That's right, anything bad that gets into your engine gets magically turned into carbon no matter what it started as!
Read the entire thread before making comments like that. The discussion was K&N filters vs OEM style filters aka filters with "more flow"
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:02 PM   #59
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The less air, the less fuel being burned and therefor less polution. Also, most people want comfort and dont't want the noise from high flow filters or flee flow mufflers, etc. Everything about any vehicle is a compromise over something else, you just cant have your cake and eat it too, so chances are a lot higher that the stock intake does restrict. Previous dyno graphs have shown difference between no filter at all and stock filter, so there's no argument to be had about how perfect the stock box is since it's not...
Your first sentence is not correct my friend. Emissions are all about the quality of combustion. For example, a engine that is burning more fuel with more air at the right mixture will put out less pollution than an engine that is using less air and fuel but not burning it efficiently. The more completely the fuel/air mixture is burned, how precise that fuel/air mixture is and how effective the combustion chamber is and how well the engine can replace burned mixtures with fresh ones are the main factors in emissions, mileage and power.

No one here is arguing that the stock box is perfect. The consensus is, if you are looking for power you can feel, you should look elsewhere instead. Aftermarket air intakes for a modern wrangler offer very little bang for the buck and have very little to actually offer that justifies their price.

I think many people have a hard time accepting this because they see how well intakes can work on other vehicles and so expect the same or similar performance on theirs. Plus, it looks and sounds cool so how could it not work very well?!!!

We, know the pentastar can make at least a maximum of 305hp. Comparing the challengers with the jeeps, I'd assume a different intake MANIFOLD, higher flowing exhaust manifolds, and a more aggressive tune. Those are just my assumptions. I haven't researched it though because I'm not too interested in modding my jeep for more power .I have other toys much more suited for that. But for those of you who want a noticable amount of additional power, that's where I'd start if I were you.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:22 PM   #60
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I do have a lot to learn, but not misinformation like this. I've been building race engines for almost 10 years now, so I don't need to listen when someone is telling me that "a K&N filter is going to let in more dust and kill your motor." I guess motors that I have put together that have 225,000 miles are just miracles. I may not know a lot about Jeeps, but I sure as hell know a lot about motors.
There's a perfect example right there. You may have race engine experience but that's clearly not helping you right now. You are not realizing that we are talking about Jeep Wranglers right now, not race cars. Jeeps, even mall crawlers see harsher enviornments and road conditions than a typical race car ever would. I for one have never said that a K&N will be the end of your engine, but its also not doing it any favors when it comes to filtering either.

Real race cars also have the luxury of being torn down on a regular basis to check for wear and refreshed as needed. I don't think many of the guys in here are going to be doing that with theirs!

The guys here are here for a reason. They are enthusiasts. Most of them take their jeeps offroad at least occasionally if not very often. The dust, dirt, mud and water encountered offroad require consideration when it comes to protecting your engine from the elements. The stock box and filter does a great job of that.

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