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Old 02-15-2013, 09:25 PM   #61
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The old " you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink" comes to mind.

Its your money do what you want. A dusted engine sure isn't worth a butt dyno hp increase in a Jeep that is still under warranty.Well till they see that CAI.

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Old 02-15-2013, 09:29 PM   #62
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There's a perfect example right there. You may have race engine experience but that's clearly not helping you right now. You are not realizing that we are talking about Jeep Wranglers right now, not race cars. Jeeps, even mall crawlers see harsher enviornments and road conditions than a typical race car ever would. I for one have never said that a K&N will be the end of your engine, but its also not doing it any favors when it comes to filtering either.

Real race cars also have the luxury of being torn down on a regular basis to check for wear and refreshed as needed. I don't think many of the guys in here are going to be doing that with theirs!

The guys here are here for a reason. They are enthusiasts. Most of them take their jeeps offroad at least occasionally if not very often. The dust, dirt, mud and water encountered offroad require consideration when it comes to protecting your engine from the elements. The stock box and filter does a great job of that.
When I said race engines, I meant primarily ROAD cars with engines built/that can be used for racing, as well as getting groceries, and they do NOT get rebuilt after every race...or ever. For example...building this one now...a 944 Turbo motor...





I don't know if you guys took my post to an extreme but I will stand by my opinion.

1) Would a K&N hurt your JK motor? Not a chance.

2) Would I bother running one on my JK? Not a chance. It's simply not worth the money.

On that note, to each their own gentlemen.

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Old 02-15-2013, 09:37 PM   #63
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Your first sentence is not correct my friend. Emissions are all about the quality of combustion. For example, a engine that is burning more fuel with more air at the right mixture will put out less pollution than an engine that is using less air and fuel but not burning it efficiently. The more completely the fuel/air mixture is burned, how precise that fuel/air mixture is and how effective the combustion chamber is and how well the engine can replace burned mixtures with fresh ones are the main factors in emissions, mileage and power.
Ok, and how do you propose we up the quality (i think you meant efficiency) of combustion besides improving the ignition system and helping the engine waste less energy sucking in and expelling burnt gasses??
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:37 PM   #64
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The old " you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink" comes to mind.

Its your money do what you want. A dusted engine sure isn't worth a butt dyno hp increase in a Jeep that is still under warranty.Well till they see that CAI.
Now I'm positive you haven't read this thread in its entirety.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:02 PM   #65
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Ok, and how do you propose we up the quality (i think you meant efficiency) of combustion besides improving the ignition system and helping the engine waste less energy sucking in and expelling burnt gasses??
I meant quality but efficiency works too. Same goal.

I already listed the three areas I would look to first. The 3.6 in the challenger being your point of reference as it makes the most known hp.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:06 PM   #66
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When I said race engines, I meant primarily ROAD cars with engines built/that can be used for racing, as well as getting groceries, and they do NOT get rebuilt after every race...or ever. For example...building this one now...a 944 Turbo motor...





I don't know if you guys took my post to an extreme but I will stand by my opinion.

1) Would a K&N hurt your JK motor? Not a chance.

2) Would I bother running one on my JK? Not a chance. It's simply not worth the money.

On that note, to each their own gentlemen.
I've always had a soft spot for porsche's redheaded stepchild! Cool cars when done right.

We are in agreement then it sounds like with number 2. Number 1 is too bold and broad of a statement for me to agree with though. Especially when it comes to a wrangler.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:06 PM   #67
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Dust is not a problem for engines. It's not a cabin filter that needs to filter to a micron level. It needs to filter twigs, leaves, etc etc. Dust doesn't hurt engines.
Are you serious or joking? You don't think this does anything to your engine?


Try this with gauze and then get a Used Oil Analysis and check out the elevated Silicon level (dust/dirt), and also check out your elevated Aluminum, Iron, and Chromium levels from the added wear on your pistons, rings, and cylinders. Maybe if you’re lucky you’ll also see elevated levels of tin and lead as your bearing wear faster.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:07 PM   #68
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Ok, and how do you propose we up the quality (i think you meant efficiency) of combustion besides improving the ignition system and helping the engine waste less energy sucking in and expelling burnt gasses??
Most vehicles from factory run rich. This is a built in safety margin. This is especially true for any diesel or turbocharged vehicle. Rich means there is a bit more fuel in the mixture. Adding a CAI often leans the mixture out, adding a few extra ponies. Even more can be gained with a tuner/dyno. Manufacturers have to put this built in safety in because cars are sold as "one size fits all." For instance....lets say the JK was tuned from the factory for 93 octane, and was tuned 100% stoic.....that would extract MAXIMUM power, however, some housewife is going to forget one day, and fill it up with regular. This will cause all kinds of problems for the motor. However, for us enthusiasts, if you tuned your vehicle like that, you WONT forget.

My s2000 runs "cleaner" now (after adding a turbo and tune) that it was from the factory. It ran VERY rich from factory.

( I know you know this, just posting up some info for anyone interested to read.)
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:10 PM   #69
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Are you serious or joking? You don't think this does anything to your engine?


Try this with gauze and then get a Used Oil Analysis and check out the elevated Silicon level (dust/dirt), and also check out your elevated Aluminum, Iron, and Chromium levels from the added wear on your pistons, rings, and cylinders. Maybe if you’re lucky you’ll also see elevated levels of tin and lead as your bearing wear faster.
Read the whole thread please, and not cherrypick my posts. My comments were aimed at post K&N dust vs OEM filter dust. The gauze filter was simply an example, these cars are daily driven on the street, and suffer no mechanical damage. I realize the JK is subjected to environments that most cars are not, but again, my point was that the dust that passes through a K&N filter will NOT cause damage to your engine, and I'll stick by that opinion.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:15 PM   #70
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I've always had a soft spot for porsche's redheaded stepchild! Cool cars when done right.

We are in agreement then it sounds like with number 2. Number 1 is too bold and broad of a statement for me to agree with though. Especially when it comes to a wrangler.
It's not a stepchild! At the time, the 944 chassis was a better chassis than a 911!!! This is a friends car though. He bought it (body was immaculate) but like all porsches of this year/build, the main seals were going and it was leaking oil. I told my friend that he will just keep adding bandaids until one day, he will suffer a catastrophic failure. We had this convo over lunch. We then drove home in it, and as we pulled into the driveway, it started to BILLOW smoke, so we pulled it into the garage and thats all she wrote. Nothing broke, but another mile or two and it probably would have killed the motor. Amazing motors that can take a SERIOUS amount of boost and make a serious amount of power. Here she is...





Back to the meat and potatoes....

As for #1, since we both agree with #2, #1 is irrelevant.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:24 PM   #71
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Read the whole thread please, and not cherrypick my posts. My comments were aimed at post K&N dust vs OEM filter dust. The gauze filter was simply an example, these cars are daily driven on the street, and suffer no mechanical damage. I realize the JK is subjected to environments that most cars are not, but again, my point was that the dust that passes through a K&N filter will NOT cause damage to your engine, and I'll stick by that opinion.
Your specific comment simply says: "Dust is not a problem for engines. It's not a cabin filter that needs to filter to a micron level. It needs to filter twigs, leaves, etc etc. Dust doesn't hurt engines." I doesn’t say anything about K&N filters. Bad advise like that can quickly damage an engine on a Jeep that someone drives off-road.

Based on Used Oil Analysis I know that even the stock filter and box can potentially not be setup properly and allow excessive dust into the engine and cause damage. I don’t know about K&N.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:30 PM   #72
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Your specific comment simply says: "Dust is not a problem for engines. It's not a cabin filter that needs to filter to a micron level. It needs to filter twigs, leaves, etc etc. Dust doesn't hurt engines." I doesn’t say anything about K&N filters. Bad advise like that can quickly damage an engine on a Jeep that someone drives off-road.

Based on Used Oil Analysis I know that even the stock filter and box can potentially not be setup properly and allow excessive dust into the engine and cause damage. I don’t know about K&N.
You're right, my post does sound a bit misleading if taken on it's own. The posts beforehand were discussing K&Ns so I just went with it, I guess I should have been a bit more clear, so on that note, apologies.
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:34 PM   #73
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Here is a good read if you have the time.

Air Filter Flow Testing for Napa Gold, Amsoil two stage foam, Jackson Racing foam, Baldwin, Mazda and K&N


Filtration Testing for Amsoil, K&N, Napa, Jackson Racing, Baldwin, and Mazda air filters on a Miata

If you dont have the time to read it all I will summarize what most here already know.

Aftermarket filters do flow more air than stock but very little in most cases.

Stock filters do a better job of filtering out the contaminants thus prolonging engine life.

Then there is this.

A cold air intake is not actually a CAI on a Wrangler unless you have a snorkel or hood that will bring in cold air to the intake.

And most important of all. With a Wrangler that many will subject to hostile dusty air as well as splashing or down right plunging into deep water .Do you really want a filter that lets in more dirt or an intake that leaves you more vulnerable to a hydro lock situation ?
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:39 PM   #74
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It's not a stepchild! At the time, the 944 chassis was a better chassis than a 911!!! This is a friends car though. He bought it (body was immaculate) but like all porsches of this year/build, the main seals were going and it was leaking oil. I told my friend that he will just keep adding bandaids until one day, he will suffer a catastrophic failure. We had this convo over lunch. We then drove home in it, and as we pulled into the driveway, it started to BILLOW smoke, so we pulled it into the garage and thats all she wrote. Nothing broke, but another mile or two and it probably would have killed the motor. Amazing motors that can take a SERIOUS amount of boost and make a serious amount of power. Here she is..



Back to the meat and potatoes....

As for #1, since we both agree with #2, #1 is irrelevant.
Beautiful car!
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Old 02-15-2013, 10:47 PM   #75
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You're right, my post does sound a bit misleading if taken on it's own. The posts beforehand were discussing K&Ns so I just went with it, I guess I should have been a bit more clear, so on that note, apologies.
Threads move around a lot and people can skim threads and maybe pick a post and latch on to it and think they are good to go. I hate to see someone mess up their Jeep as most people are use to building their vehicles for the street and not the trails, so they may not know (or think about) the different issues they’ll have when they hit the dirt.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:00 PM   #76
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Here is a good read if you have the time.

Air Filter Flow Testing for Napa Gold, Amsoil two stage foam, Jackson Racing foam, Baldwin, Mazda and K&N


Filtration Testing for Amsoil, K&N, Napa, Jackson Racing, Baldwin, and Mazda air filters on a Miata

If you dont have the time to read it all I will summarize what most here already know.

Aftermarket filters do flow more air than stock but very little in most cases.

Stock filters do a better job of filtering out the contaminants thus prolonging engine life.

Then there is this.

A cold air intake is not actually a CAI on a Wrangler unless you have a snorkel or hood that will bring in cold air to the intake.

And most important of all. With a Wrangler that many will subject to hostile dusty air as well as splashing or down right plunging into deep water .Do you really want a filter that lets in more dirt or an intake that leaves you more vulnerable to a hydro lock situation ?
You know what? Im a man that can admit things. After reading this....

Filtration Testing for Amsoil, K&N, Napa, Jackson Racing, Baldwin, and Mazda air filters on a Miata

(I trust Bob) I am now inclined to agree with the rest of you. For a daily driven vehicle, I maintain a K&N won't do any measurable damage, but seeing this, would I run one of these on my JK that will see offroad use? No. You guys were right. I guess I wasn't looking at it from a "Jeeping" perspective but rather a general perspective, which is obviously faulty logic with this being a Jeep forum and all. For a few extra ponies, I definitely would not run this on a Wrangler that is taken offroad.

I stand fully corrected, and appreciate you guys bringing this situation to light for me. Much appreciated. You learn something new everyday.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:11 PM   #77
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You know what? Im a man that can admit things. After reading this....

Filtration Testing for Amsoil, K&N, Napa, Jackson Racing, Baldwin, and Mazda air filters on a Miata

(I trust Bob) I am now inclined to agree with the rest of you. For a daily driven vehicle, I maintain a K&N won't do any measurable damage, but seeing this, would I run one of these on my JK that will see offroad use? No. You guys were right. I guess I wasn't looking at it from a "Jeeping" perspective but rather a general perspective, which is obviously faulty logic with this being a Jeep forum and all. For a few extra ponies, I definitely would not run this on a Wrangler that is taken offroad.

I stand fully corrected, and appreciate you guys bringing this situation to light for me. Much appreciated. You learn something new everyday.

Impressive! Kudos to you man, big time. That's more than most would do.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:19 PM   #78
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Bob the oil guy saves the day again.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:22 PM   #79
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About a snorkel acting as a CAI...wouldn't that be like trying to breathe through a straw? I can't see a snorkel being any benefit at all to performance...
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:34 PM   #80
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I think all the snorkels on the market are designed large enough to allow the needed air flow.
The benefit is that they are drawing in cold air from outside the engine bay as well as drawing it in from up high away from any water.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:34 PM   #81
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About a snorkel acting as a CAI...wouldn't that be like trying to breathe through a straw? I can't see a snorkel being any benefit at all to performance...
The rugged ridge one seems extremely restrictive (that S bend on the bottom.) The AEV seems like there would be minimal turbulence and the diameter *looks* large enough...add the colder intake temps and you will probably come out ahead, but thats speculation without a dyno run.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:35 PM   #82
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That's still a lot of added distance for the air to travel.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:38 PM   #83
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That's still a lot of added distance for the air to travel.
True....like I said, without a dyno we can't say much, but the close to 40 degree (can be 100 degrees) difference in temp can pay dividends.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:11 AM   #84
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My last Jeep was a 1993 Cherokee Sport. It had 141,000 when I bought it. When I sold it, it had 315,000 miles. I beat the f'ing pulp out if it- bounced it off red limiter 20 times in row on just one day alone in the swamp lands of Minnesota, thrashed it in the mountains of Colorado (rain, snow, deep water, etc) and it had an air filter on a stick. In fact, it was a K&N!

That engine ran stronger than any engine I ever owned (except the 6.7 Cummis lol) AND the day I sold it, it ran as strong as the day I bought it.

I don't believe a filter on a stick will destroy your engine for a long, long time, if ever.

You naysayers of free flow/filter in a stick serious are all full of crap.

I base my opinions on personal experience. Everyone has different experiences.

Can somebody please tell me of one first hand experience of a blown motor that can unmistakably be directly linked to a K&N or similar!
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:23 AM   #85
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My last Jeep was a 1993 Cherokee Sport. It had 141,000 when I bought it. When I sold it, it had 315,000 miles. I beat the f'ing pulp out if it- bounced it off red limiter 20 times in row on just one day alone in the swamp lands of Minnesota, thrashed it in the mountains of Colorado (rain, snow, deep water, etc) and it had an air filter on a stick. In fact, it was a K&N!

That engine ran stronger than any engine I ever owned (except the 6.7 Cummis lol) AND the day I sold it, it ran as strong as the day I bought it.

I don't believe a filter on a stick will destroy your engine for a long, long time, if ever.

You naysayers of free flow/filter in a stick serious are all full of crap.

I base my opinions on personal experience. Everyone has different experiences.

Can somebody please tell me of one first hand experience of a blown motor that can unmistakably be directly linked to a K&N or similar!

I totally get what you're saying, but Im looking at it from this point....the K&N obviously flows better, but lets in a bit more dirt. Ok, no big deal. Now, on a Jeep, the performance gains are minimal and the slightly increased dirt entering the engine is also pretty minimal....BUT, and this is a big but....the K&N costs a lot more money...so why pay a premium for something that for arguments sake...won't add anything? It's purely a financial thing for me.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:31 AM   #86
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I totally get what you're saying, but Im looking at it from this point....the K&N obviously flows better, but lets in a bit more dirt. Ok, no big deal. Now, on a Jeep, the performance gains are minimal and the slightly increased dirt entering the engine is also pretty minimal....BUT, and this is a big but....the K&N costs a lot more money...so why pay a premium for something that for arguments sake...won't add anything? It's purely a financial thing for me.
You need to go see the dyno sheets. There are multiple sheets to be read before you speak blah blah anymore. Go to the AFE CAI AND EXHAUST THREAD. Sorry I can't link it on my cell phone.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:33 AM   #87
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http://www.autoanything.com/air-filt...A2582A0A0.aspx

You guys ever seen these? I ran these on Jeeps and atvs that I drove in DEEP water for short stretches. Also, in the sand dunes. This is just my personal experience. Yours may hydro lock and blow up at the first sign of a single water or dust molecule! LMFAO
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:44 AM   #88
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So would it be better to keep the stock set up and add a K&N filter (or a comparable filter) to replace the factory paper filter?
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:59 AM   #89
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So would it be better to keep the stock set up and add a K&N filter (or a comparable filter) to replace the factory paper filter?
You should do a little research and decide for yourself. Everyone one has very different opinions on this subject.

If you read this thread from start to finish and read the linked material you will be able to make an educated decision.

If you are specifically asking me- I'd say this to you: if you have the financial ability to purchase a dry filter CAI, and you clean it regularly as the manufacturer recommends and you use good judgement (don't submerge your filter underwater) you will benefit from the purchase. You will achieve minor power gains 6 hp (shout out to PIEFACE dyno runs), minimal increase in mpg .5-1, and a very noticeable increase in induction noise (it sounds ballsy as hell at WOT wide open throttle)
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:43 AM   #90
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Well if you had a CTD then I know you have been on the Cummins forum and Im sure you are aware of the turbos getting dusted from a K&N and some guys having failed engines due to other reasons getting blamed on the K&N and denied warranty work because of it. It has earned its reputation on the Diesel trucks.Those that know wont run them period.

Yes there are other solutions that work. Aim brute with a nano filter comes to mind but the fact of the matter is the stock filter is good for 450 hp which many will never see. If you doubt what I am saying google "K&N dusted" and dont read anything thats been pushed out there by K&N but read the post in the forums from people who have been denied warranty or had a failure because of dust .Its out there some people just dont want to believe it because some people feel the need to justify or prove they are right and the product they have selected couldn't be bad.

Referencing your old XJ running all them miles with a K&N , yep some will run forever without even a filter, you just cant kill them.
I think I will wait till my JK with the unproven 3.6 is out of warranty to test if its one of them..

My 2 cents the miner power gains are not worth the risk period.My money would be better spent on a set of Ace rock rails or a set of Rancho 9x or numerous other things that will not cause damage but will in fact give a noticeable improvement in an area that is desperately lacking from the factory. The oem air filter and intake is not one of them.

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2000 TJ son's
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