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Old 02-16-2013, 05:45 AM   #91
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So this thread has got me thinking, what about supercharged Jeeps? I don't know a whole hell of a lot about superchargers, but obviously they don't use the stock airbox setup. Do you run the same risks installing a supercharger as you would a CAI?

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Old 02-16-2013, 06:28 AM   #92
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I'll just lay it out there, but I've always thought K&N was a bunch of snake oil. They've been around forever though so people just slap them on everything from sports cars to minivans without giving it a thought. I never even used them on my Vette. At a clean prepped track where I would want to knock off an extra tenth or two, it made more sense to pull the filter altogether for a couple passes. Using an oiled filter just to gain some unnoticeable acceleration up the entrance ramp on the way to work never made any sense to me.

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Old 02-16-2013, 06:34 AM   #93
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it's nice to see a argument not get out of hand. A lot of good points. I learned a few things in this thread.

I will add. I ran with a Banks Ram air. The whistle annoyed me and I really did not feel there was any power gains.
i rolled with it until I bought the Tuner.
The engine pinged like crazy running both.
I eventually sold the CAI in favor of the SC 93 tune and been running it for almost a year now.

I can't say if there's really a power increase. The tune def helps move the bigger tires from a stop.
Matter of fact.... The tune worked better for me running 35's than the factory 32's.
The jeep doesn't lug under 2K like it did without the tuner. I only time I get any ping is in cold weather before the jeep gets up to OT.

My advice... Scrap the CAI idea and tune the jeep if you need a little more low end.

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Old 02-16-2013, 10:11 AM   #94
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This thread has been fun to read.

Like most polarizing topics, reality likely lives somewhere in between the extremes of opinion expressed here.

With few exceptions for certain vehicles, all the Dyno results I've ever seen for aftermarket intakes have shown very modest, even minimal gains. Of course, these are always peak HP figures, right? How much time do you spend up there, ya know?

My personal experience with a K&N intake on a prior vehicle was as follows:

1. Definite improvement in fuel economy
2. Modest improvement when pushing hard at high RPM
3. Felt slightly weaker at most RPM ranges that I actually used

Number one and number three may have both been caused by an unconscious unwillingness to press further on the loud pedal due to the noise that at first was entertaining, but later became quite tiresome.

Do what you like folks, but be mindful of how you use your jeep when you make your decision. Serious wheelers need to be more cautious, of course.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:32 AM   #95
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See post #14.

Whether or not it's a "waste of money" depends on your expectations. If you expect 3 MPG gain and 25 horsepower then yeah you're going to be disappointed.

If you put 33" tires on and expect to climb boulders the size of a volkswagen you're going to be disappointed too.

If you buy the CAI for the same reason as your other mods which is to put a smile on your face when you drive the Jeep then you will be very happy. The smooth engine response and that sound at 4,000RPM...I could listen to that all day long.
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:23 AM   #96
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Not worth the money just leave it
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:59 AM   #97
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CAI are great if you have made mods and upgrades your ENTIRE exhaust and cooling system. To add just an intake doesn't do much and is basically for look.

If your going to do something, you have to do it right. Have a pretty legit full exhaust system, CAI and performance programmer and you will be set
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Old 02-16-2013, 02:07 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WXman View Post
See post #14.

Whether or not it's a "waste of money" depends on your expectations. If you expect 3 MPG gain and 25 horsepower then yeah you're going to be disappointed.

If you put 33" tires on and expect to climb boulders the size of a volkswagen you're going to be disappointed too.

If you buy the CAI for the same reason as your other mods which is to put a smile on your face when you drive the Jeep then you will be very happy. The smooth engine response and that sound at 4,000RPM...I could listen to that all day long.
X2!

We Jeepers, collectively will spend thousands of dollars on wheels/tires, lifts, and countless other mods that have little or no performance benefit, yet we do it anyway because it "looks" good or makes us feel all "happy and warm inside".

But members ask about CAI or aftermarket filters and we want to ridicule them or convince them its bad juju. From a performance standpoint, it does very little. From the "sounds badass" standpoint, it could be worth millions.

Shame on us!
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Old 02-16-2013, 02:28 PM   #99
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I wouldn't say wheels/ tires and lifts have little or no performance benefit.And for many that wheel their Jeep its for more than just looks.Its probably the couple things that are at the top of the list to improve the performance of your Jeep for most. The stock tires suck and the stock wheels leave you strapped to buying more expensive 17" or 18" tires or having to run spacers to be able to run a larger size.For me the biggest single performance improvement to date was the combo.The next will be a lift and shocks.Then bumpers and winch.

Not all aftermarket filters are bad juju as some actually filter better than the oem paper filter.The nano dry filters have a higher rating and will provide cleaner air than the oem .Unfortunately the CAI are much more likely to suck in water and hot air than the stock intake . The only solution to cover both issues is a snorkel which will draw in true cold air and no water with a dry nano element.

If sounds badass is your goal I would think a flowmaster duel out muffler or something similar would produce better results for similar money.I would rather hear the engine rumble than the intake sucking air.

I will admit it several of my past rides the first thing I did was toss on a CAI and exhaust. After seeing the fallout in the Diesel trucks and the dusting issues and denied warranty claims from a CAI I just cant logically endorse a oiled filter CAI .

Bob the oil guys testing really shed some light on this as well.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:12 PM   #100
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The less air, the less fuel being burned and therefor less polution. Also, most people want comfort and dont't want the noise from high flow filters or flee flow mufflers, etc. Everything about any vehicle is a compromise over something else, you just cant have your cake and eat it too, so chances are a lot higher that the stock intake does restrict. Previous dyno graphs have shown difference between no filter at all and stock filter, so there's no argument to be had about how perfect the stock box is since it's not...
Lest you confuse someone, I just want to point something out. The POTENTIAL air flow of a filter setup has no bearing on the ACTUAL air flow until you exceed it. The differential pressure created in your cylinders, valve timing, etc. is what determines how much air your engine wants to pull. Your intake tract determines how much your engine actually gets.

In other words, an intake that flows a ton of air has no negative impact at all on emissions. That is entirely the province of combustion - the amount of power your using. No matter how much air you can flow, it's how deep your foot's in it and how much power you're demanding that determines combustion/emissions.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:24 PM   #101
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About a snorkel acting as a CAI...wouldn't that be like trying to breathe through a straw? I can't see a snorkel being any benefit at all to performance...
I wouldn't worry about it too much - you do get some flow losses by running through that much intake what with the bends and everything, but it won't be extreme.

Also, take a look at an F1 car - notice the air intake is basically a little snorkel that sits above and behind the drivers head. See? Snorkels have good performance pedigree! Or, check out those massive intakes that poke out of the hood on hot rods - a short "snorkel" if you will.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:26 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by NFRs2000NYC

I totally get what you're saying, but Im looking at it from this point....the K&N obviously flows better, but lets in a bit more dirt. Ok, no big deal. Now, on a Jeep, the performance gains are minimal and the slightly increased dirt entering the engine is also pretty minimal....BUT, and this is a big but....the K&N costs a lot more money...so why pay a premium for something that for arguments sake...won't add anything? It's purely a financial thing for me.
Go to the thread with the dyno sheet!

If you never tow, aren't at high altitudes, don't have huge mountain passes to contend with, never carry tons of gear, and the combinations of the aforementioned conditions- then no you probably don't need a little extra performance. Some of us want a little extra gain, and its worth it to us.
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:31 PM   #103
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Well if you had a CTD then I know you have been on the Cummins forum and Im sure you are aware of the turbos getting dusted from a K&N and some guys having failed engines due to other reasons getting blamed on the K&N and denied warranty work because of it. It has earned its reputation on the Diesel trucks.Those that know wont run them period.

Yes there are other solutions that work. Aim brute with a nano filter comes to mind but the fact of the matter is the stock filter is good for 450 hp which many will never see. If you doubt what I am saying google "K&N dusted" and dont read anything thats been pushed out there by K&N but read the post in the forums from people who have been denied warranty or had a failure because of dust .Its out there some people just dont want to believe it because some people feel the need to justify or prove they are right and the product they have selected couldn't be bad.

Referencing your old XJ running all them miles with a K&N , yep some will run forever without even a filter, you just cant kill them.
I think I will wait till my JK with the unproven 3.6 is out of warranty to test if its one of them..

My 2 cents the miner power gains are not worth the risk period.My money would be better spent on a set of Ace rock rails or a set of Rancho 9x or numerous other things that will not cause damage but will in fact give a noticeable improvement in an area that is desperately lacking from the factory. The oem air filter and intake is not one of them.
I'm sorry if people over oiled their filters.

I towed a 30' gooseneck with heavily built and armored Jeeps. 15,000 pounds of Steel over the largest passes in North America regularly. I had no issues whatsoever. I can read and follow directions. I can only tell you my personal experiences. Also, the guy who bought it from where I traded it in still brings it back for servicing so its still on the road. My buddy works at the shop she he always tells me about it.

Many issues on the newer turbos where emission(s) related. They would drop them out and spray a cleaner in there on stock rigs. Some would blow on their own before a bandaid could be applied.

I ripped all the emissions stuff of and let it breathe. And holy $hit what a beast it was! 5" turbo back, deleted everything emissions (as stated), chip, intake.

Never one issue after I released it from the lunacy and overbearing reaches of the EPA. Way off topic, but whatever...

As for arguably the best engine ever made by Jeep the 4.0, I feel this engine is better initially. You are right about waiting to see a out longevity though. Time will tell.

Yeah, to each there own. I really like reading about other people's opinions and formulating my own based upon knowledge gained. Although, when people (not pointing at you, we all do it) are just rehashing bs and second hand info it's merely entertainment
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:44 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by COStrider

You should do a little research and decide for yourself. Everyone one has very different opinions on this subject.

If you read this thread from start to finish and read the linked material you will be able to make an educated decision.

If you are specifically asking me- I'd say this to you: if you have the financial ability to purchase a dry filter CAI, and you clean it regularly as the manufacturer recommends and you use good judgement (don't submerge your filter underwater) you will benefit from the purchase. You will achieve minor power gains 6 hp (shout out to PIEFACE dyno runs), minimal increase in mpg .5-1, and a very noticeable increase in induction noise (it sounds ballsy as hell at WOT wide open throttle)
I've read a good bit on this thread and others... There seems to be some serious disagreement on the effectiveness of a CAI.. It seems like the Pentastar's original set would be comparable to a CAI.. I'm just not sure if its worth $300 if I can get the same performance from a $50 filter
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:08 PM   #105
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I went with Volant, the fit and finish was top notch and the sound is sex.

Dry filter was a plus too, much easier to clean. Offers good proctection with the socks they sell too.
+1
google Donaldson PowerCore filter & check it out.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:11 PM   #106
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I've read a good bit on this thread and others... There seems to be some serious disagreement on the effectiveness of a CAI.. It seems like the Pentastar's original set would be comparable to a CAI.. I'm just not sure if its worth $300 if I can get the same performance from a $50 filter
I would say no, the oem setup has appendages/muffler that restricts flow in favor on noise reduction & the oem panel filter may not have the overall surface area of an aftermarket filer.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:39 PM   #107
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That Volant with the nano filter or the Donaldson filter is not a bad looking set up but dam the price for just so little improvement. Almost the price of a snorkel .
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:13 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Schocker65
This thread has been fun to read.

Like most polarizing topics, reality likely lives somewhere in between the extremes of opinion expressed here.

With few exceptions for certain vehicles, all the Dyno results I've ever seen for aftermarket intakes have shown very modest, even minimal gains. Of course, these are always peak HP figures, right? How much time do you spend up there, ya know?

My personal experience with a K&N intake on a prior vehicle was as follows:

1. Definite improvement in fuel economy
2. Modest improvement when pushing hard at high RPM
3. Felt slightly weaker at most RPM ranges that I actually used

Number one and number three may have both been caused by an unconscious unwillingness to press further on the loud pedal due to the noise that at first was entertaining, but later became quite tiresome.

Do what you like folks, but be mindful of how you use your jeep when you make your decision. Serious wheelers need to be more cautious, of course.
Wrong, a dyno doesnt show JUST peak hp and tq, it shows you the entire power curve. And the power curve is what really tells you if you're improving. This is probably the root cause of the debate, because both sides are right. One side is right to say that overall hp gains are minor, and the other is right in saying they feel a difference. The issue comes from interpreting why, and it boils down to the power curve. If the mod you do helps smooth out some of the dips in the curve and helps the engine produce the same power earlier in the rpm band, you WILL feel you're accelerating faster. Your top speed may be only marginally higher, but if you get to it faster, then that's a win in my books. What you have to pay for it is a different story
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:26 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by DJL2

Lest you confuse someone, I just want to point something out. The POTENTIAL air flow of a filter setup has no bearing on the ACTUAL air flow until you exceed it. The differential pressure created in your cylinders, valve timing, etc. is what determines how much air your engine wants to pull. Your intake tract determines how much your engine actually gets.

In other words, an intake that flows a ton of air has no negative impact at all on emissions. That is entirely the province of combustion - the amount of power your using. No matter how much air you can flow, it's how deep your foot's in it and how much power you're demanding that determines combustion/emissions.
Sure, but at the end of the day, asuming you have the efficiency as high as you can get it, at one point the only way to burn less is to chocke the engine. So many race engines are detuned to pass emisions, it's not even funny. Also I agree, the cylinders and valves etc will dictate how much air can go into an NA engine, but lets not forget about how hard an engine has to work to suck in and expell that air! It's just like going from 35s to 32s; when you have 35s your engine is producing the exact same amount of power as when you have 32s, but you're slower because 35s are hard to move. Same thing with air intake, if your engine is fighting to push air out and suck air in, you're just building up heat instead of building up speed
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:56 AM   #110
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I think the point here is any power gains would only be noticeable on a dyno. Since nobody here I assume is competitively racing their Jeep, it's really just a placebo effect. You'd get more performance increases on a cool dry day vs a warm humid one.

For the placebo effect, I've been on a few passes at the drag strip that I could swear were my fastest only to see my time slip later prove otherwise.

I guess if you want more sound out of the intake it's worth it, but I'm not quite sure with the big whoop is. Loud intakes to me don't sound like they have more power, just less refinement. Kinda like when you put a fart can exhaust on a Civic.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #111
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Wrong, a dyno doesnt show JUST peak hp and tq, it shows you the entire power curve. And the power curve is what really tells you if you're improving. This is probably the root cause of the debate, because both sides are right. One side is right to say that overall hp gains are minor, and the other is right in saying they feel a difference. The issue comes from interpreting why, and it boils down to the power curve. If the mod you do helps smooth out some of the dips in the curve and helps the engine produce the same power earlier in the rpm band, you WILL feel you're accelerating faster. Your top speed may be only marginally higher, but if you get to it faster, then that's a win in my books. What you have to pay for it is a different story
I know that the Dyno charts show more than the peak, but the quoted gains are always at peak numbers. Some Dyno's I've seen have shown reduced HP and torque for aftermarket intakes at lower RPM's. When I say lower RPM's, I mean like 3-3.5k; most Dyno charts I've seen don't even start until that range. This is consistent with my previous butt Dyno experience, but this is just MY experience.

I'm not arguing against using an aftermarket intake; I'm on the fence about it myself, mostly due to the increased FE that I experienced, not for the slight increase in HP.
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:39 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Schocker65

I know that the Dyno charts show more than the peak, but the quoted gains are always at peak numbers. Some Dyno's I've seen have shown reduced HP and torque for aftermarket intakes at lower RPM's. When I say lower RPM's, I mean like 3-3.5k; most Dyno charts I've seen don't even start until that range. This is consistent with my previous butt Dyno experience, but this is just MY experience.

I'm not arguing against using an aftermarket intake; I'm on the fence about it myself, mostly due to the increased FE that I experienced, not for the slight increase in HP.
Sure, you do have valid points in there, but seriously, we do not need to guess or assume here, since others have already spent the money and time to give us real world numbers! Like I said, there are a couple topics floating around the interweb where people have dynoed the jk pentastar stock airbox with NO FILTER, stock filter, CAI, and CAI + exhaust. Those graphs should be the starting point of our conversations imo
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:39 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by bloodfart

Sure, you do have valid points in there, but seriously, we do not need to guess or assume here, since others have already spent the money and time to give us real world numbers! Like I said, there are a couple topics floating around the interweb where people have dynoed the jk pentastar stock airbox with NO FILTER, stock filter, CAI, and CAI + exhaust. Those graphs should be the starting point of our conversations imo
Went looking for a little while, and I am finding next to nothing on Dyno's comparing stock to aftermarket for intakes. The only one I found was for the Ripp intake, and those results showed the opposite of what I've seen in the past; the midrange gains were greater than the peak. Surprising...of course, that is not an intake I would ever consider putting on a Jeep.

I'd love to see more charts for the Pentastar, if there are any. Can you point us to any?
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:43 PM   #114
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sure, you do have valid points in there, but seriously, we do not need to guess or assume here, since others have already spent the money and time to give us real world numbers! Like i said, there are a couple topics floating around the interweb where people have dynoed the jk pentastar stock airbox with no filter, stock filter, cai, and cai + exhaust. Those graphs should be the starting point of our conversations imo
^^yes!!
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Old 02-17-2013, 01:51 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Schocker65

Went looking for a little while, and I am finding next to nothing on Dyno's comparing stock to aftermarket for intakes. The only one I found was for the Ripp intake, and those results showed the opposite of what I've seen in the past; the midrange gains were greater than the peak. Surprising...of course, that is not an intake I would ever consider putting on a Jeep.

I'd love to see more charts for the Pentastar, if there are any. Can you point us to any?
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/afe...137259-10.html

This was already posted on page one in this thread (page 2 if you are on a mobile device).

Does anybody read anymore? Or do they just go to the last page and start firing questions that have been covered multiple times within a thread. LOL

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Old 02-17-2013, 01:57 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by COStrider

http://www.wranglerforum.com/f33/afe...137259-10.html

This was already posted on page one in this thread (page 2 if you are on a mobile device).

Does anybody read anymore? Or do they just go to the last page and start firing questions that have been covered multiple times within a thread. LOL

Better mention that the graphs start on page3 of the link at post #77! You know, so we dont lose even more of them on the way there
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Old 02-17-2013, 03:54 PM   #117
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Better mention that the graphs start on page3 of the link at post #77! You know, so we dont lose even more of them on the way there
So true. Maybe if they read the entire thread there that would be a huge help too. A lot of discussion there doesn't need to be repeatedly asked in this thread, because it is answered many times there too. HA.

It is a discussion forum, but damn
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Old 02-17-2013, 04:55 PM   #118
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I've said it before and I'll say it again - I've put cat-back exhausts and K&N drop-in filters in several daily drivers over the past 15+ years and have seen noticeable power and mileage gains on them all. Nothing massive mind you, but you can tell a difference. CAIs are usually a tad better, which makes sense - you're removing a flow restriction. It's not rocket science, kids. Look at the size of the horn sticking out of the top of the airbox lid that the air enters through - it's pretty small in terms of area.

That said, I would be reluctant to run a CAI on a Jeep that sees extremely dusty action off road, or one that gets lots of use in water and mud.
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Old 02-17-2013, 05:34 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Mopar2Ya

I would say no, the oem setup has appendages/muffler that restricts flow in favor on noise reduction & the oem panel filter may not have the overall surface area of an aftermarket filer.
So yes or no to a CAI?
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Old 02-17-2013, 06:17 PM   #120
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Depends on what you expect out of it.

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