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Old 07-30-2013, 10:32 PM   #1
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Construction advice: installing Harken Hoister

I am finally getting around to installing the Harken Hoister for my JKU hard top. I have a two car garage that also has two kids' bedrooms directly above it. It is a newer house, 5 years old now, and I noticed during construction that they used a manufactured joist system instead of solid lumber in the ceiling of the garage/floor of the bedrooms. Concerned, I contacted Harken and the rep stated that:

Quote:
"I know nothing about ijoists and whether this system will work with those or not. If I had to guess I would say it will be just fine. Thanks"
I didn't see anything in the instructions online that explicitly stated not to use the hoister in that scenario, and with the somewhat vote of confidence from the Harken rep I went and ordered it.

In the process of summer vacations and general procrastination I somehow lost my original installation manual. Went to Quadratec to download the new one and now it says in the manual:

Quote:
Warning: Do not screw into laminated rafters. They are not intended to accept fasteners. Consult rafter maker for recommendations. Screwing into laminated rafters may considerably weaken system, causing load to fall which may cause an accident, damage to property, personal injury or death.
Is what I have considered a laminated rafter? I am not sure. I do know that what is up there has an OSB or plywood layer on the underside of the joist/rafters as well as a layer of drywall on the outside of that. Could I instead use a liberal amount of toggle/anchor bolts to hold my 2x6's to the ceiling with enough holding power to keep the top secure?

I really don't want to do this wrong with my kids' bedrooms above. I have experience with construction and have no worries I can install this correctly, I just want to make sure I'm not compromising structural integrity.

Here is a photo I found online that shows what I saw when it was under construction. Note this isn't an actual photo of my particular house. It's just a representation of the type of joist/beam I saw.


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Old 07-30-2013, 11:04 PM   #2
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I'm not a construction guy, but I would definitely get a professional opinion before you install the hoist.

Personally, if there wasn't some sort of bracing that could be done, I wouldn't go ahead with it. Again, get a professional opinion first before you abandon the idea.

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Old 07-31-2013, 12:03 AM   #3
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Pre drill the holes in the joist and you will be fine. Do not use drywall anchors...bad idea
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:36 AM   #4
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Most homes in the past 20 years use engineered trust, so nothing to bolt into. I am trying to figure out a solution now.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccoston View Post
I am finally getting around to installing the Harken Hoister for my JKU hard top. I have a two car garage that also has two kids' bedrooms directly above it. It is a newer house, 5 years old now, and I noticed during construction that they used a manufactured joist system instead of solid lumber in the ceiling of the garage/floor of the bedrooms. Concerned, I contacted Harken and the rep stated that:

I didn't see anything in the instructions online that explicitly stated not to use the hoister in that scenario, and with the somewhat vote of confidence from the Harken rep I went and ordered it.

In the process of summer vacations and general procrastination I somehow lost my original installation manual. Went to Quadratec to download the new one and now it says in the manual:

Is what I have considered a laminated rafter? I am not sure. I do know that what is up there has an OSB or plywood layer on the underside of the joist/rafters as well as a layer of drywall on the outside of that. Could I instead use a liberal amount of toggle/anchor bolts to hold my 2x6's to the ceiling with enough holding power to keep the top secure?

I really don't want to do this wrong with my kids' bedrooms above. I have experience with construction and have no worries I can install this correctly, I just want to make sure I'm not compromising structural integrity.

Here is a photo I found online that shows what I saw when it was under construction. Note this isn't an actual photo of my particular house. It's just a representation of the type of joist/beam I saw.

Yes, what the picture is showing is engineered (plywood) I beans and they are laminated. The web, bottom and top chords are all laminated.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:18 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ccoston View Post
I am finally getting around to installing the Harken Hoister for my JKU hard top. I have a two car garage that also has two kids' bedrooms directly above it. It is a newer house, 5 years old now, and I noticed during construction that they used a manufactured joist system instead of solid lumber in the ceiling of the garage/floor of the bedrooms. Concerned, I contacted Harken and the rep stated that:

I didn't see anything in the instructions online that explicitly stated not to use the hoister in that scenario, and with the somewhat vote of confidence from the Harken rep I went and ordered it.

In the process of summer vacations and general procrastination I somehow lost my original installation manual. Went to Quadratec to download the new one and now it says in the manual:

Is what I have considered a laminated rafter? I am not sure. I do know that what is up there has an OSB or plywood layer on the underside of the joist/rafters as well as a layer of drywall on the outside of that. Could I instead use a liberal amount of toggle/anchor bolts to hold my 2x6's to the ceiling with enough holding power to keep the top secure?

I really don't want to do this wrong with my kids' bedrooms above. I have experience with construction and have no worries I can install this correctly, I just want to make sure I'm not compromising structural integrity.

Here is a photo I found online that shows what I saw when it was under construction. Note this isn't an actual photo of my particular house. It's just a representation of the type of joist/beam I saw.

Don't know anything about a Harken Hoister, I made my own hoist but you should be able to attach (screw) 2x4's to the trusses and then attach your hoist to the 2x4's.

You are only lifting 80 to 95 lbs depending on whether you have a 2 or 4 door top. I'm assuming you have garage doors that weight a lot more attached to these I beams.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:49 AM   #7
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4dr top is 145 pounds.
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:00 AM   #8
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4dr top is 145 pounds.
4 door top minus the freedom panels is 95 lbs according to the manufacture.
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:07 AM   #9
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What you're showing in that picture is a rafter, what you have in your garage ceiling/upstairs floor is a joist. A ceiling/floor joist is made to hold weight significantly higher than that of your rafters. The best option would be to lay a 2" X 6" perpendicular to the joists and bolt the hoister to that. Unfortunately, you have rooms directly above your garage so you don't have the crawl space to do that. Instead, you'll have to reinforce the joist and go into that or truss between the joists and use that method. Either way, your going to be poking holes in the drywall ceiling.
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
What you're showing in that picture is a rafter, what you have in your garage ceiling/upstairs floor is a joist. A ceiling/floor joist is made to hold weight significantly higher than that of your rafters. The best option would be to lay a 2" X 6" perpendicular to the joists and bolt the hoister to that. Unfortunately, you have rooms directly above your garage so you don't have the crawl space to do that. Instead, you'll have to reinforce the joist and go into that or truss between the joists and use that method. Either way, your going to be poking holes in the drywall ceiling.
The I beam shown can be used either as a roof rafter or floor truss.

An I beam with a longer web (between end cords) will have a greater carrying capacity but usually the limiting factors are spacing between I beams or the length of the beam.

In this case these beams or any I beam used as a floor joist should be able to carry the weight of a Jeep hard top.
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCo Jeep View Post
4 door top minus the freedom panels is 95 lbs according to the manufacture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n6hal View Post
According to my scale, the 2 door top with Freedom panels weighs 136 lbs. Each power / heated mirrored door weighs 62 lbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Charlie View Post
The back portion of the 2 door hard top is 90 lbs. The 4 door hard top is 120 lbs.
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Originally Posted by Jkwrangler012 View Post
I just took mine off with a friend (we are both decent sized guys). I have a 2 door 2012 jk. But the most challenging part was balancing it. And it was heavy. Sure seemed like more than 120 pounds. Opening the back window did seem to help alot too
"...My neighbor has a spring scale... much like a fish scale, and I connected it from my pulley to my my top holder... I accounted for the weight of the top holder and measured total weight. Now granted, I had to keep it stable so I may be off a bit, but can't be by to much. I used the same scale for each door. The top weighs about 120 lbs. The front doors weigh in around 70 lbs a piece and the rear doors weigh in around 45lbs a piece. Total weight for all is around 350lbs. If you take if off while wheeling, you gain about a half inch of clearance. Every bit helps".

Ask 10 people and you'll get a different answer, but there is no bloody way the 4dr hardtop weighs only 95 pounds... as I've lifted it with another strong person. No bloody way, it's heavier. Who is right?
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:42 AM   #12
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"The I beam shown can be used either as a roof rafter or floor truss.

An I beam with a longer web (between end cords) will have a greater carrying capacity but usually the limiting factors are spacing between I beams or the length of the beam.

In this case these beams or any I beam used as a floor joist should be able to carry the weight of a Jeep hard top."

That's what I said, with different words and clever usage of the / key.
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Old 07-31-2013, 09:57 AM   #13
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"...My neighbor has a spring scale... much like a fish scale, and I connected it from my pulley to my my top holder... I accounted for the weight of the top holder and measured total weight. Now granted, I had to keep it stable so I may be off a bit, but can't be by to much. I used the same scale for each door. The top weighs about 120 lbs. The front doors weigh in around 70 lbs a piece and the rear doors weigh in around 45lbs a piece. Total weight for all is around 350lbs. If you take if off while wheeling, you gain about a half inch of clearance. Every bit helps".

Ask 10 people and you'll get a different answer, but there is no bloody way the 4dr hardtop weighs only 95 pounds... as I've lifted it with another strong person. No bloody way, it's heavier. Who is right?
I don't deal in second hand accounts. That being said I have never weighed the tops so personally I can't tell you with 100% certainty exactly what they weigh. I'm telling you what the manufacture of the tops state....80 for the 2 door 95 for the 4 door.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
"The I beam shown can be used either as a roof rafter or floor truss.

An I beam with a longer web (between end cords) will have a greater carrying capacity but usually the limiting factors are spacing between I beams or the length of the beam.

In this case these beams or any I beam used as a floor joist should be able to carry the weight of a Jeep hard top."

That's what I said, with different words and clever usage of the / key.
OK, thought you were saying that the I beams shown couldn't be used as a floor joist.
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:57 AM   #15
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The picture you are showing is of roof trusses, not floor joists, but the concept is similar except they lay vertically on top of the plates on top of the walls surrounding your garage and provide support for the ceiling and your daughters' floors. They should be on 16 inch centers, as is common practice around the country (sometimes 12" centers). Get yourself a stud finder at Home Depot or other hardware store (not expensive) and locate the joists and mark them. Then attach two 2X6 boards across at least three of them (perpendicular) with hefty wood screws or lag bolts and washers after pre-drilling the holes smaller than the diameter of the screws/bolts. Space the 2x6s so you can attach the hoist to them. That will distribute the load and you can then attach your hoist to the 2X6s.

This is just a suggestion and you will have to verify. If any of this is confusing, consult or use a carpenter. Good luck.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:18 PM   #16
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this isnt rocket science
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:43 PM   #17
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this isnt rocket science
No, but I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to my kids' safety.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:37 PM   #18
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From what I've been told by Boise Cascade (not the manufacturer of your i-beams), you will have no issues with mounting (2) 2"x6" boards approximately 44" on center apart from each other perpendicular to the existing engineered floor joist framing. The 2"x6" 'plate' should be attached to the i-beams with 3/8" diameter lag bolts into pre-drilled holes in the i-beam bottom cord.

I would suggest the 2"x6" span a minimum of 4 floor joists to help disperse the weight of the JK roof. I installed mine and added 3/8" diameter eye hooks as a secondary support system after the Harken Hoist was used to lift the top off the Jeep. I then ran some 1" wide nylon webbing from eye bolt to eye bolt with a ratchet to releive some of the weight from the hoist. Not that it's needed, but I feel safer knowing that's in place.

As to the concern of your kids bedroom floors having an issue, a house is typically designed with a 40 pound per square foot live load. Providing the house was properly designed, I would not worry about it. Just to give you a little bit of peace of mind, floors for car dealerships are designed with a 40 pound live load also. I doubt you will ever be parking a car in your kids bedroom. Though stranger things have happened.

The above information is supplied without any responsibility on my part, just a bit of friendly info.

Best..
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:21 PM   #19
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No, but I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to my kids' safety.
Getting back into this conversatipn again. What safety concerns do you have? Are you concerned that a 80 to 95lb hard top is going to pull your garage ceiling down?
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:55 PM   #20
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Getting back into this conversatipn again. What safety concerns do you have? Are you concerned that a 80 to 95lb hard top is going to pull your garage ceiling down?
I was unfamiliar with the structural integrity of the bottom of these joists. I wanted to be sure that drilling in to the bottom side of them would not weaken them to the point of potential failure if, for example, a kid or myself jumped upstairs on the floor while playing around. I would rather be safe and know for sure than to have to dig my dead kids out of a heap of broken wood down in the garage. That's all. Just being a concerned father because I know my wife will have these same questions once I start putting it up.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:06 PM   #21
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I was unfamiliar with the structural integrity of the bottom of these joists. I wanted to be sure that drilling in to the bottom side of them would not weaken them to the point of potential failure if, for example, a kid or myself jumped upstairs on the floor while playing around. I would rather be safe and know for sure than to have to dig my dead kids out of a heap of broken wood down in the garage. That's all. Just being a concerned father because I know my wife will have these same questions once I start putting it up.

Nailing or screwing into the bottom cord of these trusses will not hurt them, they are built to be nailed/screwed into.

Trusses are as strong as regular lumber. The only way to compromise these trusses is to cut through them or to cut too much of the web out.

As I mentioned before what do you think your garage doors are attached to?
The garage doors are much heavier than a Jeep top unless they are the thin sheet metal type.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:14 PM   #22
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The garage doors are much heavier than a Jeep top unless they are the thin sheet metal type.
Thin sheet metal type is what I have.

So I am going to go forward with this install now. I have another dilemma. I have a large beam protruding about 2 feet behind the rope organizer between it and the "front wall" (as per Harken instructions). The beam is drywalled so I'm not sure if it's metal or wood underneath. Do I run diagonal to achieve my length to get the top up high enough, or can I just mount the whole thing sideways and run the block and tackle out to a side wall of my garage? I would presume this wouldn't be an issue but maybe I'm overlooking something.
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Old 07-31-2013, 06:11 PM   #23
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Thin sheet metal type is what I have.

So I am going to go forward with this install now. I have another dilemma. I have a large beam protruding about 2 feet behind the rope organizer between it and the "front wall" (as per Harken instructions). The beam is drywalled so I'm not sure if it's metal or wood underneath. Do I run diagonal to achieve my length to get the top up high enough, or can I just mount the whole thing sideways and run the block and tackle out to a side wall of my garage? I would presume this wouldn't be an issue but maybe I'm overlooking something.

Even the thin sheet metal doors probably weigh close to a Jeep top but my main point was that your builder screwed into the floor/ceiling trusses to install the garage doors rails. So I wouldn't worry about doing that.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:18 AM   #24
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You'll have no issues rotating the axis of the hoist system. As long as you can get the end pulley reasonably close to a wall for the storage of the rope. My end pulley sits about 15" off the wall so that it misses a wall cabinet. Place another length of 2x6 under the end pulley that will span a minimum of 2 ceiling joists. It's easier than you think.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:32 AM   #25
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Just wanted to update by saying that the install went great today. I used lag bolts across 4 beams on each 2x6 and the top goes up and down just fine. It all seems to be quite sturdy. Tomorrow I get to finally put my Spiderwebshade on and drive around town with the top off.
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Old 08-02-2013, 05:31 AM   #26
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Just wanted to update by saying that the install went great today. I used lag bolts across 4 beams on each 2x6 and the top goes up and down just fine. It all seems to be quite sturdy. Tomorrow I get to finally put my Spiderwebshade on and drive around town with the top off.
Any pictures of the install?

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